David Plouffe Points to Events in November to Prove “Base” Is Happy in December

Picture 168David Plouffe fed Ari Melber a whole bunch of bullshit in this interview defending Obama’s health care reform capitulation. But I’m particularly amused by this aspect of his argument.

Rank and file Obama supporters still have faith in the health care strategy, Plouffe insists, a conclusion he reached by listening to the “base” supporters who donated time and money to Obama.

“I’ve been out on a book tour, I’ve seen a lot of people–the base I view are the people who gave money and volunteered in the campaign. Now, there are plenty of people who are commentators who did that too, and I thank them for that, but the heartbeat of the campaign and the Obama organization are the people out there I’ve seen the past few weeks in St Louis, in Kansas City, in Philadelphia,” he said. (The Nation interview was part of Plouffe’s tour for “The Audacity to Win.” Plouffe also highlighted that literally two million people have taken some volunteer action for health care since Obama’s inauguration.

“It’s easy to take potshots, but I’m very closely in contact with the people who make up the heartbeat of the ground level of Obama for America, who are still out there,” he said. “We’ve had a couple million people out there volunteering for health care, quietly in communities, helping maintain support. It’s different from a campaign; you’re not out there saying, ‘Register eight voters today.'” Later he elaborated, “Is it the same intensity as the campaign? Of course not… I quite frankly am thrilled that over two million people, which is a lot, have done something on health care, meaning: they’ve gone out and knocked on doors; they visited a congressional office; they helped organize a press conference. It’s happened in all 50 states, and we think it’s a small part of why health care will get done.”

So Plouffe refutes Markos’ argument that the party has “a lack of understanding of just how pissed the base is at this so-called reform,” by pointing to two things: the enthusiasm of the people he’s talked to while on book tour over “the past few weeks,” and the two million people who have been engaging in grassroots lobbying through Organizing for America.

As a threshold matter, Plouffe invokes book events that happened on November 20, November 19, and November 5 to support his claim that grassroots Obama supporters are not pissed about Obama’s capitulation to Joe Lieberman on December 14. But it’s worse than that. Plouffe hasn’t had a book event since December 10 (though he’s doing one tomorrow in Delaware, and I hear he takes feedback he gets at book events very seriously, if you happen to be in Delaware…). In other words, Plouffe is claiming that all the enthusiasm he saw on the road before Obama capitulated to Lieberman proves that the base is okay that Obama capitulated to Lieberman.

Then there’s the OFA claim. Plouffe says that the sheer number of Obama volunteers who have been fighting to support health care reform prove that the base still supports Obama’s approach to health care reform.

There’s a big problem with that. Though OFA did send out an activist blast yesterday, for much of the time these OFA volunteers were working their ass off for health care, the public option was part of the plan. Read more

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21% of People in MA Still Forgo Necessary Medical Care

I tweeted this factoid yesterday, but wanted to post on it too, because I think it illustrates the difference bewteen health insurance and health care.

A number of supporters of the current Senate bill have been pointing to RomneyCare to argue that mandates and exchanges can be wildly successful in providing care. But a September 2009 Kaiser Commission review of the MA experience had this to say:

According to a March 2009 Urban Institute report, health reform has improved access to health care services for newly insured and previously insured adults. Over ninety percent of adults in Massachusetts have a usual source of care and most reported seeing a doctor in the previous year. However, the affordability of health care remains a barrier to receiving care for some residents. Of the total population, 21 percent went without needed care in the previous year because of cost. People with disabilities and those in fair and poor health experienced the greatest barriers to accessing care.

There is some good in this snippet. It says that people–presumably some of them for the first time in a while–are getting primary care. But it’s also saying that more than one-fifth of them are forgoing medically necessary care because the health insurance they have is too stingy to make that medically necessary care affordable.

The MA program is not dissimilar to the Senate bill. It allows for policies with deductibles of up to $4000 for families and other out-of-pocket fees, though it actually has lower out-of-pocket limits than the Senate bill. What MA considers to be an affordable premium is not all that different from what would be required under the Senate bill. (While I don’t think all the Senate subsidy levels have been released, making a one-to-one comparison impossible, it appears that the Senate bill offers an affordability opt-out for the affluent–families making $114,401–that the MA program doesn’t have, but requires the middle class to pay higher premiums–$441/month versus $364/month for a family making $66,150; go figure, the House of Lords screwed the Middle Class again).

So we should assume that the Senate bill would have similar outcomes as the MA program (though with a much weaker mandate, it would achieve much lower levels of coverage). And one outcome appears to be that the middle class is being forced to buy insurance, but that insurance is not making health care affordable when people need it the most.

It’s one thing to require people to buy insurance if it is affordable and it guarantees that it’ll actually get them the care they need. But if it doesn’t (and the Senate bill wouldn’t for the middle class), then it just becomes a wealth shift from the middle class to the health care industry.

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The MyBarackObamaTax

I did a post when Max Baucus first released the Senate Finance Committee bill, showing that for a middle class family of four, a significant medical event would leave the family with just $7,215 to pay transportation, education/child care, utilities, debt, and other necessities.

I wanted to do the same exercise again, because the Senate bill has changed to include more subsidies for those between 300 and 400% of the poverty level. As a result of those subsidies, the bill has gotten much better for the middle class. But it would still leave a family of four that had experienced a significant health care event with just $13,620 to pay for everything besides food, housing, health care, and income taxes.

I’m going to do two scenarios — one for someone just above 300% who will receive subsidies and have a premium limit, and one for someone just over 400%. While that artificially calculates the number for those who would be in the worst case scenario, as far as benefits (meaning they make just enough to miss out on some subsidies), it does give a basic idea of what this will do to middle class families (though it is inaccurate in that those over 400% of poverty have no cap on premiums, so those numbers could be higher). Since subsidies are figured on “silver” plans which allow actuarial values of 70%, this is what might happen to a family incurring around $39,666 in medical costs over the year, in which case they would pay the full out-of-pocket costs for their income level.

As with my earlier post, please let me know if you’ve got better estimates — but provide a link. Note the income tax for the lower income level is based on Brookings/Urban Institute/Census data. The state taxes are based on MI’s relatively low rates, so those numbers would be higher for most people.

301% of Poverty Level: $66,370

Federal Taxes (estimate from this page, includes FICA): $8,628 (13% of income)

State Taxes (using MI rates on $30,000 of income): $1,305 (2% of income)

Food (using “low-cost USDA plan” for family of four): $9,065 (14% of income)

Home (assume a straight 30% of income): $19,275 (30% of income)

Health Care: $14,477 ($7,973 out-of-pocket + 9.8% of income; totals 22% of income)

Total: $52,750 (79% of income)

Remainder for all other expenses (including education, clothing, existing debt, transportation, etc.): $13,620 (or 21% of income)

401% of Poverty Level: $88,420

Federal Taxes (really rought estimate based on this page, includes FICA): $13,263 (15% of income)

State Taxes (using MI rates on $45,000 of income): $1,957 (2% of income)

Food (using “low-cost USDA plan” for family of four): $9,065 (10% of income)

Home (assume a straight 30% of income): $26,526 (30% of income)

Health care: $20,565 ($11,900 out-of-pocket + 9.8% of income–though note there is no limit on premiums for this income level, so this could be higher; totals 23% of income)

Total: $71,376 (80% of income)

Remainder for all other expenses (including education, clothing, existing debt, transportation, etc.): $17,044 (or 19% of income)

I’m going to start collecting other likely costs below, to try to round this out.

Transportation costs (assumes 1 car, 12,000 miles/year, at IRS rembursement rate): $6,600

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Captive Consumers in Oligopolies Do Not Make Effective Markets

In a post citing liberally from a Matt Yglesias post naming me,  Ezra takes on the argument that the health care bill, as currently conceived by President Lieberman, would be a bailout of the insurance industry.

There’s an argument on the left that the health-care bill represents a “bailout” to the insurance companies. Matt Yglesias puts this in the proper context:

I’ve seen Marcy Wheeler characterize the plan as an “industry bailout.” And, indeed, if I were a small government conservative one political tactic I would employ would be to start characterizing all initiatives involving government spending as a “bailout.” You could say that [the stimulus]’s provisions funding K-12 education are a “bailout for teacher’s unions.” You could call [cap and trade] a “bailout for windmill makers.” And you can call the health care bill an “insurance company bailout.” But the mechanism by which insurers can get extra money under reform is that … more people get health insurance at a price they can afford.

For the record, I’m not positive I’m the one who did say that, but I’m not opposed to the invocation of my name in that context. I do, however, find Matt’s insinuation that I’m making the same kind of cynical argument conservatives do disingenuous at best. Particularly coming from a guy who claims that requiring middle class families to pay almost 10% of their income in premiums alone–more than 3 times as much as some experts say is affordable–is “a price they can afford.”

Ezra, for his part, argues (again) that profit is not in and of itself a bad thing.

To put this a bit more sharply, if I could construct a system in which insurers spent 90 percent of every premium dollar on medical care, never discriminated against another sick applicant, began exerting real pressure for providers to bring down costs, vastly simplified their billing systems, made it easier to compare plans and access consumer ratings, and generally worked more like companies in a competitive market rather than companies in a non-functional market, I would take that deal. And if you told me that the price of that deal was that insurers would move from being the 86th most profitable industry to being the 53rd most profitable industry, I would still take that deal.

Now, I’ve got a few nits. Ezra may not have seen the CBO directive that Jon Walker pointed to the other day, which suggests Harry Reid will be unable to insist on a 90% Medical Loss Ratio, the provision that would have forced insurers to spend 90% of premium dollars on care. And there are reasons to doubt that all the measures pressuring providers to bring down costs incent the right behaviors; while some are much-needed reforms, some may actually lead to more spending. But those nitpicks aside, Ezra rightly points out the aspects of this reform that a real improvements over what we’ve got now.

That said, Ezra’s further examples (and Yglesias’) just prove the point those of us opposed to the bill in current form have been making, because they show the importance of functioning markets.

The profit motive is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. The Apple computer I’m typing on, the Netflix movie I wish I were watching, the pork buns I wish i were eating — it all comes from profit. But Apple isn’t allowed to have slaves build its computers, Netflix can’t destroy the incentive to make films by pirating all of its DVDs, and Momofuku can’t let rats infest its kitchen because exterminators are expensive.

First, let me deal with Matt’s analogies. Some stimulus money goes to schools. That money is either appropriated at the state level through regular somewhat democratic appropriation processes (in which case it’s a bailout for states, and the teacher’s unions will be put in position of negotiating for fewer job cuts or wage decreases). Or it will be awarded to school construction contractors in localized markets that are both competitive and (because of transparency attached to the stimulus) very transparent.

Cap and trade has, in fact, been called a bailout–but of Wall Street, not wind turbine manufacturers, because it’ll just create another big derivatives market. But for companies trying to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions to meet caps, yes, they may choose to buy wind turbines. Or they may choose any number of other ways to generate power releasing fewer greenhouse gases. The point is, though, there are many choices, and some, but not all of those choices, are markets in which there is real competition (and utilities are big enough they’ve got some power to influence these markets).

Now onto Ezra’s analogies. I’m most intrigued by his Momofuku parallel, because it does point to one aspect of health care reform–the regulations requiring insurers reveal a lot more information about their businesses, which hopefully will make it easier to pressure health care providers to improve their practices. But the analogy fails on a key point: consumers’ source of pressure on Momofuku not to let rats take over its kitchen is twofold. We trust health inspectors will find the rats and issue a report making the rats public. And, very importantly, Momofuku has to compete with hundreds of other restaurants, and any hint that it’s got a rat problem would make it competitively disadvantaged compared to these other hundred restaurants. Unlike Momofuku, Blue Cross in most markets has only a few other competitors. So a better analogy than Momofuku is probably school lunch programs, which are regulated by the USDA, but which aren’t exposed to real competition. And, as it turns out, school lunches don’t match the quality of meats offered at fast food restaurants which are exposed to competition.

In the past three years, the government has provided the nation’s schools with millions of pounds of beef and chicken that wouldn’t meet the quality or safety standards of many fast-food restaurants, from Jack in the Box and other burger places to chicken chains such as KFC, a USA TODAY investigation found.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture says the meat it buys for the National School Lunch Program “meets or exceeds standards in commercial products.”

That isn’t always the case. McDonald’s, Burger King and Costco, for instance, are far more rigorous in checking for bacteria and dangerous pathogens. They test the ground beef they buy five to 10 times more often than the USDA tests beef made for schools during a typical production day.

That’s not rats, but it is a significant issue affecting quality. Increased transparency is not sufficient to force larger bureaucracies to improve quality. It’s an important element, but it’s not enough.

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Carl Levin Takes Ownership of Corrupt Deal with PhRMA

Here’s what my Senator, Carl Levin, said last night when he voted against the Dorgan reimportation amendment. (h/t powwow)

Mr. LEVIN. Mr. President, it has become apparent that passage of this Dorgan amendment relative to importation of prescription drugs, an amendment which I have long supported, could threaten passage of broader health care reform. If so, the perfect would become the enemy of the good. For that reason, I will vote ‘‘no’’ on the Dorgan amendment on this bill.

Presumably in an attempt to justify to constituents like me why he doesn’t think consumers should save $100 billion on drugs, he said he had to vote down the Dorgan amendment to preserve the overall health care reform bill.

Just as a reminder, here’s one of Jane’s many posts explaining the corrupt genesis of the PhRMA deal. As she described, in late spring and summer, at a time when the White House pretended it was letting Congress write bills, the White House made a series of closed door deals with big health care players to buy off their approval for health care “reform.” The deals would:

  1. Keep them from advertising against the White House plan
  2. Keep them from torpedoing vulnerable Democrats in 2010 so there isn’t a repeat of 1994
  3. Keep their money out of GOP coffers

As reported by Ryan Grim, here are the terms of the deal negotiated with PhRMA.

Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion.

  1. Agree to increase of Medicaid rebate from 15.1 – 23.1% ($34 billion)
  2. Agree to get FOBs done (but no agreement on details — express disagreement on data exclusivity which both sides say does not affect the score of the legislation.) ($9 billion)
  3. Sell drugs to patients in the donut hole at 50% discount ($25 billion)

This totals $68 billion

4. Companies will be assessed a tax or fee that will score at $12 billion. There was no agreement as to how or on what this tax/fee will be based.

Total: $80 billion

In exchange for these items, the White House agreed to:

  1. Oppose importation
  2. Oppose rebates in Medicare Part D
  3. Oppose repeal of non-interference
  4. Oppose opening Medicare Part B

So now Ameican consumers have to continue to subsidize drug development for the rest of the world (and a great deal of erectile dysfunction ads) so the Obama Administration could buy off the PhRMA.

This is–as Scarecrow noted the other day–one big protection racket.

And this is the thoroughly undemocratic, anti-consumer process that Carl Levin has now taken ownership of.

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Health Care on the Road to Neo-Feudalism

I believe that if the Senate health care bill passes as Joe Lieberman has demanded it–with no Medicare buy-in or public option–it will be a significant step further on our road to neo-feudalism. As such, I find it far too dangerous to our democracy to pass–even if it gives millions (perhaps unaffordable) subsidies for health care.

20% of your labor belongs to Aetna

Consider, first of all, this fact. The bill, if it became law, would legally require a portion of Americans to pay more than 20% of the fruits of their labor to a private corporation in exchange for 70% of their health care costs.

Consider a family of 4 making $66,150–a family at 300% of the poverty level and therefore, hypothetically, at least, “subsidized.” That family would be expected to pay $6482.70 (in today’s dollars) for premiums–or $540 a month. But that family could be required to pay $7973 out of pocket for copays and so on. So if that family had a significant–but not catastrophic–medical event, it would be asked to pay its insurer almost 22% of its income to cover health care. Several months ago, I showed why this was a recipe for continued medical bankruptcy (though the numbers have changed somewhat). But here’s another way to think about it. Senate Democrats are requiring middle class families to give the proceeds of over a month of their work to a private corporation–one allowed to make 15% or maybe even 25% profit on the proceeds of their labor.

It’s one thing to require a citizen to pay taxes–to pay into the commons. It’s another thing to require taxpayers to pay a private corporation, and to have up to 25% of that go to paying for luxuries like private jets and gyms for the company CEOs.

It’s the same kind of deal peasants made under feudalism: some proportion of their labor in exchange for protection (in this case, from bankruptcy from health problems, though the bill doesn’t actually require the private corporations to deliver that much protection).In this case, the federal government becomes an appendage to do collections for the corporations.

Mind you, not only will citizens be required to pay private corporations. But middle class citizens may be required to pay more to these private corporations than they pay in federal and state taxes. Using these numbers, this middle class family of four will pay roughly 15% in federal, state, and social security taxes. This family will pay around $10,015 for their share of the commons–paying for defense, roads, some policing, and their social safety net share. That’s 15% of their income. They will, at a minimum, be asked to pay 9.8% of their income to the insurance company. And if they have a significant medical event, they’ll pay 22%–far, far more than they’ll pay into the commons. So it’s bad enough that this bill would require citizens to pay a tithe to a corporation. It’s far worse when you consider that some citizens would pay more in their corporate tithe than they would to the commons.

And, finally, while the Senate bill does not accord these corporate CEOs a droit de seigneur–the right to a woman’s virginity the night of her marriage–if Ben Nelson (and Bart Stupak) get their way, it would make a distinction in this entire compact for how the property of a woman’s womb shall be treated.

Single payer for the benefit of corporations

And for those who promise we’ll go back and fix this later, once we achieve universal health care, understand what will have happened in the meantime. The idea, of course, is to establish some means to get people single payer coverage (before Lieberman, this would have been through a public option or Medicare buy-in) and, over time, expand it.

In fact, this bill will move toward single payer, too–though not the kind we want. For the large number of people who live in a place where there is limited competition, this bill will require them to get health care through the oligopoly or monopoly provider. Read more

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“Taking Care” of Almost-Seniors

Brian Beutler reports Joe Lieberman’s excuse for supporting Medicare buy-in three months ago, but not now.

“I didn’t change my mind,” Lieberman insisted. “I’ve been in this position for the last few weeks.”

“We’ve got this very strong network and system of subsidies for people, including people who are 55-65 so the idea of the Medicare buy in no longer was necessary because they’re taken care of very well under the Finance Committee proposal,” Lieberman said.

Steve Benen points out one big problem with Lieberman’s so-called excuse: subsidies were in place in September, when he supported Medicare.

Second, the substance of Lieberman’s claim doesn’t stand up well to scrutiny: “Back when Lieberman endorsed Medicare buy-in in September, the basic subsidies for people in the 55-65 age range were part of the House health care bill, and were clearly going to be part of whatever emerged from the Senate. Nobody imagined a health care bill that would do nothing for people aged 55-65. What’s more, even if Lieberman were completely unaware of even the most rough outlines that health care reform was taking, it’s hard to imagine how he or anybody could believe that Medicare buy-in was desirable on its own but, in combination with other subsidies, so undesirable as to be a cause for filibustering reform. There’s no way anybody would design their policy priorities this way.”

Understand what Lieberman is saying. Under the Medicare buy-in plan, monthly rates were estimated to be around $750 (note, this says $633/mo). But under the Senate bill, without Medicare buy-in, insurance companies would be permitted to charge older people three times as much as they charge younger people. So if you assume that a monthy premium for a young person is $400/month, then you’re agreeing that insurance companies could charge seniors $1,200/month for health care.

More than $400 a month more, or around $5,000 a year. And whether that $5,000 is subsidized or not, someone is going to have to pay for it–either those almost-seniors, or the federal government. That’s Joe Lieberman’s idea of “taking care” of those between 55 and 65 years of age.

Update: I’m having math problems this morning. I’ve been informed the ratio is 3:1 (at least right now), which does make it more than $5,000 a year more.

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Rahm’s Making the White House Look Terrible

Picture 166This morning, the Politico made news by reporting that someone at the White House had ordered Harry Reid to cut a deal with Joe Lieberman on health care.

The White House denied the report.

“The White House is not pushing Senator Reid in any direction,” spokesman Dan Pfeiffer says. “We are working hand in hand with the Senate Leadership to work through the various issues and pass health reform as soon as possible.”

But since, then, two more reoprters have confirmed Politico’s account: TNR’s Jonathan Cohn and HuffPo’s Ryan Grim. In fact both Cohn and Grim pass on the ID of this anonymous White House figure: Rahm Emanuel. (Yeah, I know, gambling in the casino, even.) Here’s Ryan’s report.

Rahm Emanuel visited Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in his Capitol office on Sunday evening and personally urged him to cut a deal with recalcitrant Sen. Joe Lieberman, two Democratic sources familiar with the situation said.

Now, aside from the fact that the White House looks stupid to us, as they try to insist Reid wasn’t visited by the Ghost of Health Care past, consider how they look to those close to the negotiations, who not only are being jerked around by Lieberman and Rahm, but who also risk losing their job as Senator and Majority Leader over this legislative failure. Here’s how that frustration sounds.

The report, however, according to the two sources, was entirely accurate. “We’re long past time for these kinds of games,” one source said.

But as bad as Rahm is making the White House look right now, consider how bad he’s going to make the White House look, if Lieberman refuses to deal. After all, Lieberman has taken just days to refuse the last compromise, based on claims of opposing a policy he supported three months ago. Lieberman doesn’t give a shit about health care, Obama, or Rahm Emanuel. (Or Harry Reid, for that matter.) So after forcing the White House to lie repeatedly about his strong-arm tactics, Rahm is going to make the White House look still worse after the Lieberman refuses the next deal he makes.

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One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Costs Is Income of Richest 1%

Picture 165The Economic Policy Institute provides a much needed counter-weight to those cheerleading the use of Cadillac-as-Chevy taxes to pay for the Senate health care bill. It shows, generally, that the millionaire’s tax used to fund the House bill is far more progressive than the Cadillac-as-Chevy tax used to fund the Senate bill, which ends up taxing those at $20-30,000 more than it taxes those at $500,000 to 1 million a year.

In fact, it makes an even more striking point. Given the way the economy has worked in the last several decades, one of the few ways to fund health care in such a way that will keep up with rising health care costs is to tax the rich.

While a funding source that grows with health care costs is a desirable goal, it should be noted that for the last three decades one of the only things in the American economy that actually has grown as fast as overall health costs is the incomes of the richest 1% of households.

The paper points out two central reasons why the excise tax won’t be as progressive as its champions claim.

Most importantly, it shows that the cost of a plan does not reflect exclusively on how generous the benefits of that plan are. On the contrary, plan cost has more to do with group size and overall health than it does with the benefits granted.

The assumption that high-cost plans are high-value plans is flawed. Many health plans are expensive because the population covered is older or sicker than average, but they still do not provide more comprehensive coverage. Moreover, this is a much larger problem than is often recognized. Gould and Minicozzi (2009) have shown that some of the most powerful predictors of a plan’s high cost are the size of the firm and the age of its workers. This is surely not a coincidence—small firms and firms with older workforces tend to have less bargaining power with insurance companies and this leads to higher prices for insurance coverage that may be no more comprehensive than lower-priced coverage for larger or younger firms. It should be noted that the Senate bill recognizes this reality and specifically exempts some health plans (those covering high-risk professions, for example) from the excise tax or raises the threshold of the tax explicitly on the grounds that high-cost is not synonymous with high-value.

Furthermore, Gabel et al. (2010) find that only 3.7% of the variation in premiums for family plans is determined by a plan’s actuarial value, that is, the share of average medical expenditures paid for by insurance (instead of by outof-pocket spending). It is also worth noting that the Joint Committee on Taxation’s (JCT) scoring of the excise tax indicates that plans with fewer enrollees are more likely to be affected by the excise tax. Given that previous research has shown that smaller firms pay premiums 18% higher than large firms pay for equivalent health coverage, it seems clear that this excise tax will be affecting many workers who have only high-cost—not high-value—health coverage (see Gabel et al. (2006)). [my emphasis]

So workers at smaller firms and those with sick co-workers will be asked to pay for the health care reform, not primarily a bunch of Goldman execs who have luxurious benefits.

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Correction: Bad Nelson and Holy Joe Think Up a New Excuse

The press, other members of Congress, everyone have to stop reporting over and over again that the Bad Nelson and Holy Joe “oppose” some aspect of health care reform.

Two key senators criticized the most recent healthcare compromise Sunday, saying the policies replacing the public option are still unacceptable.

Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) both said a Medicare “buy-in” option for those aged 55-64 was a deal breaker.

“I’m concerned that it’s the forerunner of single payer, the ultimate single-payer plan, maybe even more directly than the public option,” Nelson said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.”

Rather, Bad Nelson and Holy Joe have simply “thought up a new excuse” to oppose real health care reform.

Until we stop pretending these two men are brokering in good faith, we will never get to the point in the discussion of how we get the best health care reform without some industry mole spiking the reform. These men will not support anything less than an out and out bailout of the health care industry, and to hell with the federal budget, and pretending they will just poisons the efforts of those bargaining in good faith.

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