John McCain Battles the Veterans
I’m not a veteran, so it’s not my place to question McCain’s claims on both his own service and his work for other veterans.
But I wanted to put up this YouTube and this post by Michigander djtyg–an Iraqi veteran–because I think the two, together, say a lot of what needs to be said. Plus, djtyg does the fact-checking that this YouTube just begs.
There’s been a lot of hoopla over the past few weeks about John McCain’s military service.
[snip]
So now the discussion is on about the values of military service. Does it have any value in politics? Could you learn those values in the civilian world instead? Does being a veteran make you an expert in military affairs?
Being a veteran does have its benefits in building character. While in the military I learned the value of looking out for other people, even at your own expense. I learned how to have the courage to do things even when I was sure I was going to die. I learned that talking about doing something and actually doing it are two different things (you’d be surprised how many grown adults don’t realize this). Being a Soldier changed who I was, and I’m better for it.
[snip]
… most Soldiers would tell you that they’re better people for having served.
Moving on to John McCain…..
As for John McCain, the question that no one wants to answer is how being a POW and a veteran have given him the qualifications to become President. This would be considered a fair question if McCain had an answer. If he said that being a Navy officer gave him leadership experience (and challenged Gen. Clark’s assesment of his leadership experience), if his policies for respecting the Geneva Conventions came from his being tortured as a POW (which he initially did, before he buckled to his right-wing base and decided to support waterboarding), and that being a veteran made him want to look out for the new veterans coming home from places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the question wouldn’t be asked anymore. But because McCain has refused to answer the question now being asked, it’s become clear that he is using his service not as an example of why he would be a good President, but as a shield from criticism.
When McCain was attacked by Obama for not supporting the expanded GI Bill, McCain said:
"I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did,"
In other words: McCain was saying he’s going to screw over veterans, and you don’t get any say in the matter.
McCain’s record on veteran’s affairs has been horrible. Here’s a list from VA Watchdog.
2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.
2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D.
2006 Senator McCain sponsored or co-sponsored 18 percent of the legislation favored by the The Retired Enlisted Association in 2006.
[click through for more details]
Date Bill Title Vote
10/01/2007 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 NV
02/02/2006 Tax Rate Extension Amendment N
11/17/2005 Additional Funding For Veterans Amendment N
10/05/2005 Health Care for Veterans Amendment NMcCain has served his country honorably. No one disputes that. There will be no "Vietnam POWs For Truth" putting out commercials saying "John McCain never served at the Hanoi Hilton. I know. I was there." And unlike George W. Bush, no one on the left is going to accuse him of being a manchurian candidate. Anyone who does will get my boot up their butt.
But if McCain has gotten anything out of his military experience other than a shield for criticism, he should let us know. So far he has refused to do so. [my emphasis]
djtyg is running for office this year–County Commissioner in MI’s second biggest county. I’ll put up a link in once I find one…
Update: Here’s a link to djtyg’s campaign site.
an excellently even-handed analysis of McLame’s service silence.
i keep having to correct people… make sure they know he was a BOMBER pilot and not a FIGHTER pilot.
so many nits to pick on this elephant, it’s hard to know where to begin…
cheers.
I’m not a veteran either, ew, but I’ve got plenty of them in the family. The way McCain blew off this Vietnam vet’s questions on his lousy voting record & then declared the topic off limits should be a signal to all- keep asking. The facts on McCain’s voting record are clearly written down & irrefutable. He can’t do anything to change that, so has to resort to skirting the topic & maligning the questioners.
I’d give a lot to watch a vid of St. John going up like a bottle rocket when repeatedly asked about his miserable support for veterans, the questioning done by veterans with facts in hand, with cameras in hand.
Question for anyone out there who knows…Did McCain ever command actual Naval personnel? He may have been an officer, but I don’t think I have ever seen any detail in terms of his actually being in a position where he got to act in a real leadership position.
Yes he supposedly commanded a squadron in Florida, maybe Pensacola, for a brief period (less than a year) after he returned. It was a peacetime deal, and the rumor was that it was staged gloss for him, but I really don’t know that for sure. It is very established that he spent much of his time there drinking and carousing with hookers and any other women he could rustle up. Not the stuff of great military leadership.
In the short time that Captain McCain ran NAS Pensacola, rumor has it that apart from Trader John’s and a hundred fifty or so other establishments within an hour’s drive, there were very few sexually mature and legally available women. The availability of alcoholic spirits was comparable.
But here’s the thing. Pensacola provides basic military training and aircraft orientation for incoming aviators. It’s a basic training command in Florida. Its Naval and Marine Corps instructors are superb at weeding out the unfit and preparing the potentially competent. But its not the Top Gun school or North Island in San Diego, or an active based like Subic Bay in the Philippines used to be. Much less is it a forward theater of operations like the Balkans or a war zone like Iraq. Which means that McCain has had nearly as much experience keeping Senators from driving drunk as he did leading men in battle.
General Clark was right professionally to point out the limits of McCain’s actual experience. The Democrats should have rallied round him. Instead they threw chum in the water and tossed him overboard. Shame on them.
The short answer is yes. In most of his assignments, such as serving as a junior officer aboard a carrier, McCain would have commanded a small number of men. I believe that the only assignment that would qualify as “a command” in civilian eyes was when as a Navy captain, he commanded the Navy’s principle training command for incoming aviation officer candidates – Pensacola Naval Air Station, Florida.
John McCain never made flag rank, admiral, so he never commanded large numbers of sailors, ships and Marines, never commanded contingents from multiple services, never had responsibility for theater-wide operations. As a Navy liaison to Congress, he did learn to advocate in Congress for funding a carrier that his SecNav and President didn’t want. Most importantly, he learned what Senators liked to drink, and how to quietly get them home when they’d had too much.
General Clark’s experience in this regard, as former top NATO commander, is vastly superior to former Captain McCain’s. General Clark’s grasp of the limits of armed force and the utility of diplomacy also seems far superior, as does his knowledge of economics and the language of debate. In those fields, McCain’s fluency seems limited to “Go Cheney Yourself”.
As part of the General Clark affair of late, I saw, read, heard that McSame commanded a peace time squadron after being a POW.
Question I have is why did he have to leave the service so suddenly? Is it something he might have said in Hanoi?
As soon as his father the admiral died he had to get out. He was a well hated man in the USN
John McCain was informed by the upper echelons that he would not be getting an Admiral’s star. That is a career-ender for anyone with higher aspirations. It does no good to stay in – if you know that you are going to be passed over, the best thing for everyone is for you to resign. Which he did.
As to why, the 4 non-combat crashes, his lack of leadership skills, his POW-connected mental-health questions possibly, his attitude, his grades at the Academy, any one or all of these things probably contributed to the decision not to advance him.
Guys who really want to be Admirals work hard, keep their noses to the grind, and don’t do things to jeapordize their careers (like flying their planes under electrical wires) and whatever else he was doing when he had all those other ‘crashes’.
I spent most of my military career in a posting that had me in daily contact with all the members of a very top-heavy command full of Admirals and Captains. The characteristics of those men next to McCain could not be more obvious.
Actually, Admirals don’t get stars = they get another stripe on their epaulets which are all gold rather than black with gold stripes. And more ’scrambled eggs’ on the brim of their hat. Sorry!
NPR reported this morning on McCain’s stint in Pensacola, saying that the unit, a training unit, was in sorry shape when he got there. Many of the A-7s operated by the unit were not in working order, and he got all of the planes working. He was known for being a stickler for safety. I’m so glad we had this hard-hitting investigation.
Interesting NPR report, but as you say, it doesn’t sound like they put much into it but the pillows. McCain would have commanded Pensacola at about the time the Vietnam war ended. It was winding down from its wartime pace and suffering budget cuts like everyone else. Its facilities, aircraft and personnel were competent, but tired and taking on new roles. The Navy was transitioning to new leadership and training methods, peacetime priorities and new aircraft.
Odd that the NPR report discussed the A-7, a late 1950’s design, carrier-based bomber/attack aircraft. It was a fleet aircraft, not a trainer, and was then already outdated and would shortly be taken out of service. Pensacola did then have an active wing, but it was and is principally a training command. Most of its aircraft are trainers, single engine propeller-driven aircraft and light jets, including the training version of the A-4, which McCain flew in combat.
The clue to NPR’s possibly superficial reporting (I didn’t see the report) is in saying that McCain as a Naval Aviator was a stickler for safety. That’s as basic as saying that fire fighters don’t like fire. The claim that he “fought” to get all his aircraft into working order seems unsurprising for the commander of a flight training base. A commander who did less would have been drummed out of the service. The MSM, it seems, remains reluctant to raise the bar from the low levels it set for Mr. Bush.
Exactly how does a pilot that is a “stickler for safety” crash five different aircraft that had previously been quite airworthy? NPR must have a lot better facts than I do….
One aircraft blew up under him in the deadliest carrier accident of the Vietnam War. His aircraft was hit by a missile that went off by accident from another plane. 132 Forrestal crewmen died, 62 more injured and two missing and presumed dead in the accident.
There has been some dispute about that sequence of events, but i agree that is likely the correct case. There have been many others though. Goldwater called him the worst pilot in the fucking Navy.
I am sure Cindy lets him fly her jet!!
Nuh uh. She’s got her own pilot’s license–likely out of self-preservation.
Fuck, she won’t even let the geezer drive the car….
Well, if he is at the controls he can’t be messing the lobbiest in the back.
A contemporary description of the Forrestal fire incident is here, but it doesn’t discuss McCain’s role.
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/nav…..-fire.html
It does suggest what a violent burning hell the Forrestal deck was for a few hours, and how many men acted courageously to save their fellow crewmen, some at the cost of their own lives. Out of all the men involved, only McCain was immediately transferred to another ship, along with the wounded. The Forrestal captain certainly had his private thoughts about McCain’s involvement. If the crew shared them, he mightn’t have survived the night. Another reason McCain won’t authorize the Navy to release his full personnel jacket?
Flying in combat, or any day off a carrier, is inherently dangerous. Starting with the fact that even in daytime and in good weather, the “field” is rolling, pitching, yawing and moving up and down with the waves, as well as moving forward at about 30 knots/hour. The “sweet spot” is about 30×100 feet. Miss that, or break a cable, and its full throttle and hope you have enough power to get off the deck and enough fuel to come around and try again. That is, after they fix anything you broke, and if they don’t have to hose off the deck of what remains after a snapped cable stops flailing.
That aside, losing five aircraft, only one in combat, and one en route to the Army-Navy game in Philadelphia, is a lot. Whether McCain was jinxed or not too careful, his was not the record I would look for in a commander of junior officers and novice aviators. Nor is it a record that would stand out positively among those competing for the few, early post-Vietnam admiral slots.
Unlike Bush, McCain’s family couldn’t get him that star and he doesn’t appear to have earned it himself. In any case, he didn’t get it and “went into politics”, where performance is in the eyes of the beholder, not on the record.
I was certainly never in the Navy, nor any other kind of military flying, but I used to do some piloting, and in the circles I knew, anything more than one, and certainly after two, was considered an extremely negative trend. To the extent that other pilots didn’t even want you riding in their plane. Really, I know crop dusters (and they have incidents all the time) that have better flying records than McCain.
Five’s a lot, and he lost at least one on a boondoggle. “Lucky” that he walked away from them; not so lucky for many of his shipmates. And sailors, rumor has it, are more superstitious than crop dusters.
McCain’s Naval record could be as explosive as Bush’s TANG record, his being AWOL, his drunk driving (hell, drinking was his vocation his first two decades as an “adult”), and his rumored time in drug rehab, all of which were largely washed from the record, presumably by the energetic Mr. Rove and before him, the CIA-connected CongressCritter, Cabinet denizen and President, Daddy Bush.
McCain’s not asking us to make him Pilot-in-Chief. But his Naval record suggests heedless abandon and uncontrolled temper, an inherent inability to consider consequences. His marital record suggests not routine mid-life crisis, but caustic ambition that burns those who’ve relied on him. His lack of intellectual weight, is frightening, given how complex, literate and “virtual” is the world of presidential decision-making.
If only the MSM acted like reporters. Instead, they act like a political party, a junior coalition partner of the GOP.
McCain is literally no brighter than Bush. He can crack a joke every now and then, but he is very slow on the uptake with anything of even trivial complexity. This country has had enough years with a dolt in the Presidency; time to do better.
McSlime was known in the Navy as a “hot-dogger”. One of his plane “crashes” was an incident where he was apparently trying to fly under some power lines. He missed and hit them. Not exactly a crash in my book but a deliberate disobedience of orders for which he should have been court-martialed.
His ‘daddy’ got the incident hushed up, he was transferred to another command and kept on flying. Unheard of. But as we know, if daddy is powerful, little baby boy gets to keep on playing at being a pilot.
Apparently, attempting to fly under power lines is a sport for fighter jocks stationed in the Med. Big towers, lines crossing steep ravines, etc. Apparently McCain hit wires on a training mission; didn’t lose the aircraft, I guess, which was very lucky. But an “incident” that would have gotten less well-connected pilots disciplined or grounded.
This is interesting – because McSlime is NOT a fighter pilot – he was/is a bomber pilot. Two very different jobs.
Flying under power lines would get you a court-martial if you were anybody but the Admiral’s son. End of career.
I think the theory is that delivering your ordnance on target requires all manner of wunderflugging, like dropping your spinning mega-bombs on water in order to crumple Rhenish dams.
I suppose – but if you are going to screw off like that you better make sure of two things 1) that you don’t get caught doing it cuz it’s against orders, and 2) that you actually possess the flying skills to pull it off!
Sounds like something Boy Bush the pilot would have done doesn’t it? You know, there are competent Republicans out there; and they are totally unelectable by the raving mad GOP base. Insane.
Yeah, I know. I have actually known a few competent Republicans/Conservatives. And while I disgree with their positions, I respect them immensely as people who are decent and trustworthy. I sure wish I knew where they hatch these misfits that are trying to pass for humans that are running the Rethug party now.
Good excuse for why he wrecked 5 planes.
Isn’t there something about his records during his stay in the Hanoi Hilton that are still unavailable?
The only thing I keep seeing about the Forrestal incident is that there was some kind of “power surge” that launched a missile while he was at the controls. I have worked on some of those power systems and an accidental “power surge” is kinda’ suspicious on an aircraft type that has been in service for a while. Military aircraft are incredibly robust and redundant; especially one designed for use on outrageously dangerous flight deck. I also really have problems believing a “power surge” would actually cause a failure of all the safety mechanisms and protocols that are required to launch a missile: you don’t just open a latch and they fall! You gotta turn them on, ignite them and and release the latches at the right time etc., etc. etc.
One sad thing is the Military are experts at covering up stupid mistakes; sometimes to childish lengths. Remember a supposedly “sexually confused” sailor that caused a gun turret to blow up a few years ago?
The scuttlebutt on the Forrestal incident is that several aircraft were being prepared for launch on a combat mission. Aircraft were being moved on deck or being brought up in conference room-sized elevators. There were air and ground crew, fuel, bombs and other ordnance, connections to be made, safety pins to be pulled, lists to check. There were small tractors to move the aircraft and equipment. It would have been hot, tense and very, very loud. Training and safety are everything, but you could probably shovel the testosterone and adrenaline.
Rumor has it that McCain “wet-started” his engine. In effect, he “went on afterburner”, bled fuel into his exhaust. But not in flight for an extra boost of power, before engine start-up. On start-up, the excess fuel ignited and blew out an unexpectedly big and hot tail. A hot jock might do that sort of thing on an empty deck or field to suggest that he’s got the biggest stick on board. But on a crowded deck, with aircraft fully fueled and loaded with ordnance, with men, fuel and materiel all about, it would have been, shall we say, an irresponsible act.
The rumor continues that the fireball ignited a missile on the aircraft behind McCain, it flew into an aircraft in front of him, puncturing its fuel tank(s). Fuel and bombs fell on the deck, fuel ignited, bomb ignited, and all hell broke lose. McCain survived, but was transferred to another ship the same day. The only one.
yeah, and I saw a still photo taken from the flight-deck film. McCain’s aircraft has a puddle of liquid under it on the deck in just the spot where fuel would have dripped just before a ‘wet start’. It was not raining and there was no liquid anywhere else in the photo. Hmmm.
I’m not sure of what “scuttlebut” you are referring to, but the scenario you describe was not correct. (1) the A-4 that McCain flew in VA-46 has/had no afterburner (2) watching the whole flight deck video you can clearly see a Zuni rocket from a Phantom being spotted on a bow-catapult launching off and striking the aircraft next to McCain’s. (3) there was no aircraft behind his A-4, it was parked on the port-side with the tail over the port catwalk and nothing but the South China Sea behind him.
An subsequent investigation revealed that the Zuni was improperly loaded onto the Phantom which caused it to “cook off”. The ensuing tragedy cost many, many sailors their lives and also changed ordnance-handling procedures on flight decks forever.
Them’s the facts as I know’em… we had to watch the Forrestal Video in safety school and also in shipboard firefighting school… seen it enough times to know what’s what with the accident. No “wetstarts”, no conspiracy theories, a lot of good men died in a tragic accident.
Curious then that the official explanation has been a random power surge during the changeover from external to internal aircraft power that set off the Zuni, not a “cook off”. Secondly, I would not trust for one second what the US Navy says about this. I have no idea what really happened, or which particular version of the chain of events is true, but the version you relate already has questions as strong as those above. It is proper to discuss and analyze Wrong Way
CorriganMcCain’s part in this nightmare.Speaking of flying DHS Considering Shock Bracelets For All Airline Passengers
Maybe I will fly with Cindy!
Holy crap. That is outrageous. I suggest we outfit all the Congresscritters with them so we can, um, communicate with our elected representatives.
I want one on Sheriff Joe.
One on Arpaio? Crikey, I want one on each limb; same for his little reactionary Gooper friend Andrew Thomas, the local County Attorney here. I never thought there was a chance in the world we could elect a county attorney that made me pine for the good old days of Rick Romley.
Joe’s a Rethug, he would like torture wouldn’t he.
Matt, I won’t admit this very often, but I probably am partially responsible for Arpaio being Sheriff in the first place, and I apologize for that. I represented plaintiffs from Tucson that were heinously and wrongfully arrested, jailed and forced into false confessions in the Buddhist Temple Murder case. We sued the bejeebies out of the then Sheriff, Tom Agnos. There was information and discovery we knew they had and would not produce. Agnos became unpopular and was primaried by this travel agent that was former DEA and promised to release all information and do a scathing report on the wrongful actions of Agnos if he got elected. We, um, saw to it that said candidate, Arpaio, got some much needed support from some decent sized donors. The fucker won, and the rest is very sad history (although he did spring the scathing report, which was helpful).
You didn’t have a crystal ball. Joe is in a class by himself, well maybe with a Bull Conner. He will get his sooner or later.
Taser bracelets! The newest thing in parenting, airline passenger safety, and court room comfort. Don’t like the attorney next to you in the elevator? Shake hands with your Taser bracelet. I can imagine the e-mail sales pitches, the late night commercials and the offers for free shipping. How silly.
Where there’s money to be made, no security is too expensive to have. The latest in toys will be coming to a Blackwater Store near you, next to the closed Starbucks.
There’s actually a story that’s something like that: the government hierarchy has implanted devices that go off in emergencies – the device location tells you where the emergency is. The guy at the top has a lot of extra parts. … Ah, found it: ‘The Troublemaker’, Christopher Anvil, in Interstellar Patrol II.
I watched McSlime’s response to that vet with absolute horror and disgust. His attitude toward the veteran was one of condescension, arrogance, and belittlement. “I don’t know what you’re referring to” with the implication that the veteran was lying. McSlime is stupid – and he thinks all the rest of us are stupider than he. He acts like HE personally helped get Webb’s new GI bill passed. He did nothing of the sort and for him to try to take any credit at all for this is a bunch of crap.
As far as his awards – yeah, he does have them. They are all from years ago. But lately, he’d be hard put to name an organization that thinks of him favorably any more. His votes are atrocious – and in addition to the list above, I would add that he voted against Jim Webb’s bill for lengthening the ‘down time’ between deployments. You know – a bill that might help reduce the number and severity of PTSD cases. In other words, help our combat-fatigued veterans.
The Forrestal incident – there is another story – and it goes along with why McSlime had the nickname of “wetstart” McCain.
There is another story about the Hanoi Hilton. The interrogaters there called him ’songbird’. You can figure that one out.
And by the way, I AM a vet but I don’t think that you should have to be one just to get an answer to a simple question. Apparently McSlime only has one answer to everything. Well, I was a POW so therefore, that topic is off limits. Dork!
It’s that authority thing you know.
The USA being a constitutional republic in which civilian control of the military is fundamental, there is too much measuring of how much to say about military affairs based upon whether the speaker, whether a politician or not, has served in the military or has close family members who have served in the military. Elected Democrats in recent years have tended more so than elected Republicans to hold back in fear of not having military “cred” earned, in the view of many, by serving in the military or by having close family members who have served in the military.
Members of the United States Armed Services who have fully understood the oath of service have been conscious that they have been serving in part to protect the right of mere citizens to speak concerning military affairs and all affairs of government.
I don’t understand that thinking at all. Look at all the Rethugs who have NOT served – and I don’t count Bush’s few months in the National Guard as actual service (I am a Vietnam-era vet and the National Guard in those days was the next best thing to a draft deferment). Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, et al etc.
Then you look at the number of Dems who have – and have been absolutely vilified – John Kerry for one, Max Clelland for another, but you can go through the list of Dem Senators and Congresscritters and the Dems with military backgrounds outnumber the Rethugs by huge margins. So what’s the deal?
The people who have actually been to war understand that war is REALLY the last option – and would prefer to try anything else first. The ones who haven’t been are all too eager to paint them as cowards, soft on (enemy target of the day) or claim they didn’t really serve/get wounded/earn medals or whatever.
Not so much when the shoe is on the other foot.
Just normal Rethug hypocrisy.
bmaz,
Did you see this slap down of Sheriff Joe – Statewide dragnet nabs 312 fugitives
I think there should be a new system of acknowledge for soldiers who have shown some sort of exceptional behavior under fire.Something based on how many times you have shit in your pants.A sort of barometer
I wonder how many racing stripes Mclame has on his shorts?
Four stripes is a prerequisite for the presidency and is very important when one person tries to evaluate another.A measurement of character
I don’t know – I think most of us, if under fire might ‘fill the shorts’. But it’s the ones who do that and then keep doing the right things I’m more interested in rather than counting “stripes”.
After all, McSlime probably has solid, wall-to-wall if ya know what I mean. But that doesn’t tell me anything. He claims he volunteered to stay behind because he didn’t want to be ‘taken out of order because the NVN knew his daddy was the Admiral’. What a bunch of crap. Your first duty as a POW is to escape – not volunteer to stay longer when they want to send you home.
He didn’t want to go with that group because they were all the ‘collaborators’ and he was thinking even then about what that would do to his career aspirations. Something fishy about that story too, and we only have his word for it. (or rather the reasons for it)
No, I think that is right. McCain was not a traitor or anything, but he did talk and make the taped statements. Having done that, if he had also scooted out because of his daddy and grandfather, that would have flat out been grounds for fragging in addition to a career killer. Heck, you almost wonder if his own family would have accepted it considering how steeped in the military they were.
Okay, but since when does the captive tell the captors when he wants to go home?
They must have had some reason for wanting to send him home at that point in time (embarassing his dad maybe), but then why would they change their minds and keep him just because he said so? He must have told them something to make them decide not to just boot him out of there….
Were you in the military?
Yes, served in the US Navy from 1969 to 1972.
That sure was a short tour huh?
Standard tour for women in the military at that time.
Did you?
Yeah’ similar dates too! Only I carried a radio in the jungle
Well, thank you for your service. Sorry I wasn’t ‘allowed’ to be boots on the ground. I was assured that my service was just as important. Apparently some people don’t think so.
Heh, I dunno. You are right, they could have just carted him over to the DMZ or whatever the battle line was and said “This dude is a pain in the ass, you can have him back”.
You are alot more perceptive than most.
I went through three leutenants,two captains and one light col.They just had to go.The only people we listened to were the scouts.Anytime anyone started throwing rank around as an ultimatum {go down that trail}they were gone.I don’t know how many of my friends were killed because of some idiot officer.It took a while but we figured out how to deal with them
The solutions, I suspect, were fragmented.
Accidents
It would have been appropriate officer behavior to ask that captors send other men home first, especially if any were junior in rank to him or had been there longer or were less likely to survive prolonged captivity. Whether McCain took that position or not, it sounds heroic.
Yes, it certainly would have looked funny to get special treatment: special food or privileges, early repatriation, etc. It would have screwed up the morale of those not so fortunate, and made everyone wonder why he got it, even if it was only a mind game played by his captors.
Surely, there are men who were in the Hanoi Hilton with McCain who’ve gone on record about their shared experiences? Hasn’t some intrepid reporter attempted to get them to speak off the record? I’d wager that if Fox Noise hasn’t published a story by now, they have nothing positive or new to say.
To be clear, the issue is not his conduct as a POW, but his current fitness to hold the most demanding chief executive’s job in the world. It is McCain who keeps using his military and POW record as qualification and shield, which makes it fair game for criticism and comparison with other experience and training.
I stand in awe of McCain for what he endured as a POW. I cannot even imagine it, much less relate personally. He deserves a world of respect and admiration for that. But the brutal truth is that is doesn’t count for squat as being a competent and capable President. I am not sure that military service is necessary at all, but if it is a significant factor, sitting in a dank cell is not the kind that does. It is kind of uncomfortable to say, but it is the truth. In fact, psychologically, it could well be argued that it is a negative factor. And the rest of the man’s military career is the stuff court martials are made of, not leadership legend.
It certainly reads that way to me. No wonder he has a Hands Off! sign a mile high on those topics. Mr. Credibility hasn’t much of it. The parallels with Bush are too much. Unable to meet parental expectations, lifelong special treatment, weak intellect, uncontrollable temper, propensity to seek retribution out of all proportion to slights, real or imagined, ad nauseum. I can’t wait for the first front-page MSM article to draw out those similarities and ask, “Why would we do it again?”
Don’t hold your breath waiting for the media to do something responsible like actually report what McSlime is flip-flopping or just plain lying about today. The entire media conglomerate is an unofficial arm of the McCain campaign committee. Someone should sue for them making unlawful campaign contributions for their fawning coverage, their shrieking defense of even perceived slights (see Gen Clark), and their complete disregard for actually reporting the news.
Obama is not just running against McCain – he is running against the entire establishment media as well. His every statement as well as people he doesn’t know who make the mistake of endorsing him is pored over and picked apart for evidence of flip-flopping, while McCain makes the most horrendous ‘gaffes’, changes policy directions so fast and so often I don’t know from one day to the next which side he’s on – and he gets a complete pass.
Yeah, well, stock the cooler with plenty of ice and beer, cause that is going to be a long wait. I have never understood the national press unending love of McCain. I can tell you this, the local press in Phoenix soured on him long, long ago. Many of them saw him for what he was the instant he stepped into the scene here. The Arizona Republic, a longstanding notoriously conservative newspaper seriously in the tank for the GOP, is not friendly in the least to McCain. Has not been for a long time. Why do the national folks just drool over him?
Exactly – his mental health is an issue as far as I’m concerned. You don’t come out of 5.5 years of captivity, torture and solitary confinement for long periods with ‘absolutely no ill effects’. While they certainly did not have a diagnosis of PTSD at that time – he does exhibit classic symptoms even now. People say “well he hasn’t had a diagnosis of anything”. First of all, because he happens to be a sitting US Senator – he exhibits a lot of bad behavior that gets excused/covered up because he is a sitting US Senator and people want access. So they put up with his crap in order to get it. It’s apparently SOP in the Senate among the staffers (both his and of other Senators) when he blows up and cusses them out and then half an hour later he writes them an apology note. In my way of thinking – it’s only a true apology if you take steps to make sure it doesn’t happen again. But instead they just keep a supply of “I’m Sorry” notes for him to fill out and sign for all the times he does it. (Of course sometimes he really loses it and curses out a fellow Senator!
I also think that some of these unanswered questions about his POW conditions (favored or not), what really happened on the Forrestal, etc. go to why he is so damned defensive on the subject of his military service – he explodes and yells about it when people aren’t even talking about anything to do with his military service at all – they want an answer to a question on some other topic. The video above proves my point although there are more extreme examples. The questioner above wanted to know why he voted against 3 recent bills in the Senate. McCain launches into a diatribe insinuating that the questioner has called his (McCains) service into question – which he did not, and then claims to have no knowledge of what the guy was asking about – even after he offered to provide him with bill numbers and documentation.
As far as Faux Noise or any of the rest of the MSM – McCain walks on water and he can do no wrong. Even if there are people out there who could or would refute McCain’s stories of the war, none of them, and I mean NONE of them are looking – and if they did find something – they would never report it.
Here’s just one example. They have and are still piling all over Obama because he said he wouldn’t take public financing. Obama never ‘pledged’ to do so but said he would consider it after a discussion with the GOP nominee. He had that discussion with McCain and then decided not to take it. We are inundated with ‘flip-flop’ smears against Obama daily since he decided to opt out. McCain on the other hand – is breaking the law on a daily basis – and he should know the law – he wrote it! He never gets asked about it, they never mention it, and he continues to break the law. Every single day. Faux Noise? Hah!
I was in the Navy 32 years, and though I wasn’t an aviator, one of my sons is currently in Navy Air. Anyway, I am finding myself repulsed by the swiftboating of McCain that is being done above.
Now I am not voting for McCain for president for my own political reasons, but as McCain himself said about the swiftboating job done on Kerry, that which is being done above is both distasteful, and wrong.
Attack McCain’s politics all you want, and there is plenty there to attack for both Democrats, and real Conservatives, but smearing his life isn’t going to get much traction.
Rush Limbaugh himself one time said he would vote for Ms Clinton rather than for McCain. (I am curious about his current feelings.)
If you want some explaination for things above try Wikipedia.
My perspectives about the military are my own ok?
If you think you can dictate to anyone how to feel or what to think you better wake up.You or nobody else is going to tell me how to sort out that blood bath in Viet Nam.
Who the fuck do you think you are?
You know what repulsive is?
It’s people like you who generation afer ganeration breed more and more of the same obedient,soldiers who blindly endorse the insanity of war
Um, if you think something above is inaccurate, why do you not simply point out that which you take issue with instead of just admonishing everybody to hue the line of blind respect for a military career, whether it deserves it or not? And by the way, McCain is now completely in bed with the very people who swiftboated Kerry, and, quite frankly, did not do that much to stop the attack on Kerry when it was ongoing. Military service of McCain’s variety doesn’t mean squat as far as credentials for being elected to national office, but ti is the only thing the disingenuous two faced hack McCain has ever had, and he has ridden that false horse all the way. If a military record is all we are going to elect someone on, I would rather vote for you and your son.
OT-somewhat off topic, but not so much. Some of you might be interested in a thesis Jim Lobe has developed on the psychological conditions necessary for constituting a neocon.
“It may be that the timing of the humiliation(s) experienced by the individual in relation to his or her own emotional and social development, as well as the degree to which the individual is traumatized by the experience(s), are key factors that trigger the anger and aggression that, in my view, underlie the neo-conservative worldview.”
http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=164
That almost sounds like the oppressed child that grows up to be a cop just to “get even”.
“Swiftboating” entered the political vocabulary as a form of smear. It’s the pretense that you have your opponent’s best qualities – eg, courage in battle – and that your opponent has your own worst qualities – eg, ineptitude, incompetence, inconsistency. It’s a form of political jujitsu that Karl Rove has mastered. The above comments about John McCain’s record are not swiftboating; the claim that they are may well be.
Sen. Kerry was a highly decorated young officer in the “brown” Navy – river patrol duty in SE Asia. He turned against continuing the war in Vietnam, and expressed himself with a Yaley’s articulateness, which made him a threat to Richard Nixon. His Republican successor, George Bush the Younger, was equally afraid of his opposition to Bush’s war in Iraq. So a former AWOL national guard pilot’s wealthy supporters attempted to claim that Bush, not Sen. Kerry was brave. Tried to claim that Bush never changed his mind when Kerry always did. Tried to claim that Bush always told the truth (about why he invaded Iraq? about outing Valerie Plame? about the impact of his tax cuts and environmental policies?) but that Sen. Kerry did not. That’s swiftboating.
The comments on this thread questioned the accuracy and completeness of former Captain McCain’s military record. Two episodes suggest we are right to do so. The controlled way that McCain “released” a portion of his medical records. (He hasn’t released his Naval record, when he could easily do so.) And former NavSec Lehman’s (now a “national security” adviser to McCain’s campaign) claim that McCain would have earned a star, but turned it down, when contemporary records and Navy policy suggest that’s bunk.
The question, in the end, is which of McCain’s experiences have a bearing on his ability to perform executive duties today. And which have none or might actively limit his ability to carry out those duties. Failing to assess his record, in the Senate, the Navy, and accepting only his politically massaged version of them, would be irresponsible citizenship.
Mark Twain captured the essence of our Constitution when he said that, “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it’s right.” Trust but verify. If you can’t verify, don’t trust. Hence, three branches of government, each with the ability to check the other’s excesses. Questioning authority is patriotic. Calling it “unpatriotic” to do so is despotism, not patriotism.
Felon, Felon, Bush is a felon.
Fine first person analysis…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/f…..n_lawsuit/
Superb article! Also very funny at some points (if you’re a masochist):
There’s more, but I didn’t want to be a spoiler. The whole story is a great way to explain to non-wonks just what has gone on and what is at stake.
Good Morning Marcy and Emptywheelers –
saw these 2 on my way to dreamland via Kos – FISA
Smintheus on IG canard link
and the diarist links to a POGO report on IG’s functionality you may find interesting –POGO
anyhoo, leaving them here in the event someone wants them later
THANK YOU AGAIN MARCY – for all the GREAT liveblogging yesterday.
But if McCain has gotten anything out of his military experience other than a shield for criticism, he should let us know. So far he has refused to do so.
Consulted a member of my family who is an Army vet. His opinion: Well, a lot of the grunts are onto him, those photo ops in the Baghdad markets etc. didn’t do him any good there, the officers respect his service but realize he’s talking out of his ass on staying in Iraq, & the vets I know have him pegged as a welcher @ best & a liar @ worst on vets’ issues. I don’t think McCain can count on the military vote the way he thinks he can.”
My manners are lacking- to echo cbl2, thanks so much for all the liveblogging yesterday, ew, just finished reading it.
Just an update on schedule for today. Once I get backstage (which is taking some time this morning) I’m going to try to liveblog both the FISA debate and the Senate Mukasey hearing.
superwoman she is. Goody for us!!
Thanks for all you do to keep us informed.
This is mostly OT, but the background may come up frequently during McCain’s run for the presidency (or it may be spiked by the MSM), so it’s worth saying. My reference in #33, that McCain, “in effect, went on afterburner” was meant as analogy, to show the effects of excess fuel being ignited in the wrong place at the wrong time. The “scuttlebutt” retold rumors that others earlier in the thread had asked about.
The USS Forrestal fire in 1967 resulted in two major investigations, including a 7500 page JAG final report in 1968 (not available online).
It seemed clear that a missile hung on an F-4 unintentionally launched, struck a crewman, went through an A-4 across the deck, rupturing a fuel tank, and went into the sea. Fuel from the A-4’s ruptured tank spread aft and caught fire, leading to additional fires and explosions from cooked off ordnance, including 1000 lb. bombs apparently hung on racks designed to carry 500 lb. bombs. There were 27 aircraft on deck being made ready for launch. Twenty were lost. One hundred thirty-four men were killed, one hundred sixty-one wounded. Repairs cost $72 million in 1967 dollars and took two years to complete. It was the largest post-WWII shipboard fire.
Why the rocket went off is not clear, despite the lengthy investigations. There are multiple versions of what happened before and after. The ship was operating in the Gulf of Tonkin during a bombing campaign against North Vietnam. The tragedy was a very hot potato about a very hot war; it ended lives and careers, circumstances in which the whole truth is often also a casualty.
That’s not to denigrate the Navy. Bureaucracies in general are not good at investigating their own failures. They inherently protect their hierarchies and diffuse blame. Witness Mikey Mukasey’s “testimony” today.
Regardless of who shot Kennedy, for example, the massive Warren Commission investigation and report were badly bungled. Parkland Hospital staff who were the first to administer to Kennedy, for example, were not interviewed until thirty years after the event. The SSCI reports on Iraq and Cheney’s 1980’s minority report on the Iran-Contra investigations, demonstrate that politics often interfere with accurate reporting.
The Challenger Report was an exception. The disaster took place on national television, public interest remained high, and the investigation was led by an outside Nobel Laureate, not a bureaucrat from NASA or any of the vendors whose products or services might have contributed to the craft’s loss. Imagine what a Challenger investigation would look like under Dick Cheney or Mikey Mukasey.
In case anyone doubts that McCain is using his military record and POW experience every day, watch any ad he’s using this week. You’ll salute his efforts to use forty year old film to suggest that he’s still that bright, young, athletic man.