Dear Judge Hellerstein: Ask About the OLC Torture Documents, Too

On Friday, Judge Alvin Hellerstein had a hearing to figure out how to end the contempt suit the ACLU brought against the CIA for destroying the torture tapes. The ACLU asked that he hold the CIA in contempt. Hellerstein said that wouldn’t serve much purpose. The ACLU suggested that he could hold individuals–presumably meaning Jose Rodriguez–in contempt. In the end, Hellerstein asked the two sides to brief him with suggestions. He seems likely, however, to do two things:

  • Require the CIA to do a report for him to explain how they’ll prevent such a thing from happening in the future
  • Meet with John Durham to hear what he learned in his investigation and make as much of that public as possible

Now, I’m all in favor of getting a very complete report very public report of how the CIA destroyed evidence of torture. The citizens of this country deserve–at the very least–an overview of the investigation and a clear explanation of the roles of the public figures like Porter Goss and John Rizzo. We deserve to know what John McPherson said about the earlier damage done to the torture tapes after John Durham immunized him–and whether Jose Rodriguez and George Tenet pressured him to lie about it. We deserve to know how this relates to all the lies CIA told Congress. We deserve to know each point when the White House got involved in this process.

But I bet you a quarter that Durham will say he can’t make any of this public, because of that mythic ongoing investigation into torture.

It’s what they do.

But as for the homework assignment Hellerstein plans on giving the CIA, to provide him with a report that will convince them they will prevent this kind of evidence disappearing in the future?

It has to go further than the torture tapes themselves.

As I cataloged last year, a great deal of evidence pertaining to torture disappeared over the years:

  • Before May 2003: 15 of 92 torture tapes erased or damaged
  • Early 2003: Gitmo commander Mike Dunlavey’s paper trail documenting the torture discussions surrounding Mohammed al-Qahtani “lost”
  • Before August 2004: John Yoo and Patrick Philbin’s torture memo emails deleted
  • June 2005: most copies of Philip Zelikow’s dissent to the May 2005 CAT memo destroyed
  • November 8-9, 2005: 92 torture tapes destroyed
  • July 2007 (probably): 10 documents from OLC SCIF disappear
  • December 19, 2007: Fire breaks out in Cheney’s office

While we have no idea what, if anything, got destroyed in Cheney’s fire, we do know that CIA, DOD, DOJ, and the State Department (along with whoever owned the server on which John Yoo sent his most classified emails about torture) all somehow “lost” evidence pertaining to torture. It’s not just CIA’s problem, it’s the entire executive branch, seemingly losing torture evidence left and right.

And at the very least, Hellerstein ought to demand the very same kind of report from DOJ as he’s asking for from CIA. I mean, has DOJ done anything to make sure the drafts that go into our secret legal opinions authorizing the executive branch to ignore the law don’t disappear, as they did here?? Has DOJ done even the presumably minimal things CIA has done to make sure such documents don’t keep disappearing when they become inconvenient or dangerous? And what about John Yoo’s emails? What has DOJ done, Judge Hellerstein should ask, to find John Yoo’s missing emails and make sure similar emails don’t go missing in the future?

It’s not just the CIA that treated Judge Hellerstein’s order with contempt. So did DOJ. And yet our Justice Department is not even being held to the very low standard that our nation’s spooks are.

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  1. MadDog says:

    The New York Law Journal over at Law.com had a wee bit more on this subject:

    Hellerstein Vexed on Remedy for CIA Tape Destruction

    …On Friday, Judge Hellerstein said he still saw little value in holding the government in contempt, in part because civil contempt against an agency is usually used to obtain compliance with an existing order and would therefore accomplish little.

    Assistant U.S. Attorney Tara M. LaMorte told the judge his rulings had already achieved remedial purposes, including his dual order for the government to assemble and produce documents reflecting or commenting on the contents of the videotapes and gather other documents relating to the destruction of the tapes.

    “Then how come I don’t feel a great sense of accomplishment?” Judge Hellerstein asked…

    …She said the government was amenable to asking the CIA for a report for the judge on how it addressed the destruction and how such an action can be prevented in the future. She also said she was open to discussing another way to conclude the litigation with an award of attorney’s fees to the plaintiffs

    (My Bold)

    Shorter Assistant U.S. Attorney Tara M. LaMorte: “We’ll give plaintiffs a pony so they can ride off into the sunset with a smile on their faces.”

    • bmaz says:

      “Then how come I don’t feel a great sense of accomplishment?” Judge Hellerstein asked…

      Well Judge, that is because they are making you, and the judicial system you are supposed to be protecting, look like a feckless jurist. That’s why.

      • MadDog says:

        The judicial toadying fawning deference to the Executive branch these days truly boggles the mind.

        And the Executive branch, indeed, delights in it and takes every advantage of it.

        • phred says:

          Agreed.

          You would think the Article III branch would show some institutional pride, but no… Time and time again they let the Article II branch make a complete mockery out of the judicial system. And the judges have no one to blame but themselves. They are becoming a very bad national joke.

        • ekunin says:

          If you want to blame anyone, blame congress. Judges don’t want their orders ignored and their powerlessness revealed. The Vietnam war, an undertaking of questionable constitutionality, never made it to the supreme court because the issue couldn’t get four votes for certiorari. The judges were concerned LBJ would ignore them, like Andrew Jackson ignored the supreme court when it came to the Bank of the United States.

          Congress should impeach an administration that doesn’t obey a court order. Of course they won’t.

        • phred says:

          I respectfully disagree. There is of course, plenty of blame to go around for the sorry state of our federal government, but the judicial branch has earned their fair share of that blame. They have had many opportunities to hold various government actors accountable for their misdeeds and they have shirked their responsibilities hiding behind dubious claims of state secrets (otherwise known to children everywhere as “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”). The judiciary deserves to be roundly criticized for their failures, just as Congress and the President need to be chastised for theirs.

  2. barrelofmonkeys says:

    If the judge decides to change careers, he seems to be perfectly suited for a job as a World Wrestling Federation referee.

  3. klynn says:

    The ACLU asked that he hold the CIA in contempt. Hellerstein said that wouldn’t serve much purpose.

    I disagree your honor. Please explain your “wouldn’t serve much purpose.”

    To hold in contempt would at least put anyone in the chain on notice, especially DOJ. That would at the very least serve in a beginning of “serving the purpose” of restoring and upholding of the rule of law. Some action needs to take place that starts to put individuals on notice to practice the rule of law.

  4. Mary says:

    Aw com’on – he’s asking the DOJ as counsel for the CIA to also offer up their take on what should be the punishment? Briar patch?

    Actually – I agree with Hellerstein on contempt against the agency. But EW has a great point about DOJ, bc all the CIA destruction of evidence appears to flow from the deliberate failure of DOJ to send out lit holds from the gitgo in its torture solicitation.

    Still, with a little time and effort, you can come up with all kinds of appropriate remedies. Like a tolling order for all civil and criminal claims which might arise from any of the acts or information in destroyed evidence. Or maybe a more narrowly focused one that tolls with respect to any clients of ACLU. Like appointing a special counsel to investigate obstruction (with a tolled statute) and/or professional misconduct with respect to DOJ as well as DOD lawyers. Like making Durham not just share info on his investigation but also holding his and Holder’s feet to the fire on appearing before the court and explaining their actions in delaying his court’s review while statutes of limitation where expiring and representing to the court why THEY (yep – including the AG) should not be held in contempt for filings that delayed or hindered the court from its duties. Like ruling that that the destroyed documents weres evidence of crime and that subsequent efforts in the case before Hellerstein and in many other cases to cover up the destruction could also reasonably be viewed a both a crime and as involving the DOJ itself and directing the first non-recused atty you could get to at DOJ (if one could be found) to appoint an actual outside counsel (who can still be fired and sat on, but who at least is empowered to go to Congress if that happens, unlike the in-housers). Like …

    So many options.

    Not that any will be used, despite the enticement of Holland v. Florida on the tolling front.

      • Mary says:

        Phred – what PeasantParty said.

        Equity – especially in federal courts and more especially in criminal contexts – is a complex subject. Equity comes from our common law tradition and allows a court with equitable powers (once upon a time – they were completely separate courts, chancery courts) to grant relief where the “letter of the law” does not.

        Usually in Federal Courts (the lower courts are all established by Congress, remember) the easiest/best way to get an equitable remedy is if there is a statute specifically granting the Courts equitable powers. Even with such a statute, you have to show something along the lines of extraordinary circumstances. I have no idea, but tend to doubt, whether FOIA has an equitable grant to the courts.

        In addition to statute, though, the court has other avenues for invoking equitable remedies. That gets complex as well and is based on issues of jurisdiction and ancillary jurisdiction. The main bit of ancillary jurisdiction is the court’s inherent powers to enforce its rulings in extraordinary circumstances of blow-off by thumb nosers.

        You’d like to think that Executive Branch torture programs and destruction of evidence despite outstanding court orders and DOJ cooperation with the evidence destroyers to insulate them from liability while also preventing DOJ lawyers who solicited for torture from even getting professional misconduct referrals – – you’d like to think that there are some extraordinary circumstances there.

        OTOH, Congress and the Courts haven’t thought there was all that much extraordinary about the CIA assisting with shooting down missionary planes in South America and killing an American woman and her infant child and almost taking out her husband, the pilot, and her young son as well.

        So I don’t have much faith anymore in what this nation values as Extraordinary. Apparently, if it doesn’t involve the uber wealthy or a chick named Snooky, no institution in this nation gives a rats ass. Phred – what PeasantParty said.

        Equity – especially in federal courts and more especially in criminal contexts – is a complex subject. Equity comes from our common law tradition and allows a court with equitable powers (once upon a time – they were completely separate courts, chancery courts) to grant relief where the “letter of the law” does not.

        Usually in Federal Courts (the lower courts are all established by Congress, remember) the easiest/best way to get an equitable remedy is if there is a statute specifically granting the Courts equitable powers. Even with such a statute, you have to show something along the lines of extraordinary circumstances. I have no idea, but tend to doubt, whether FOIA has an equitable grant to the courts.

        In addition to statute, though, the court has other avenues for invoking equitable remedies. That gets complex as well and is based on issues of jurisdiction and ancillary jurisdiction. The main bit of ancillary jurisdiction is the court’s inherent powers to enforce its rulings in extraordinary circumstances of blow-off by thumb nosers.

        You’d like to think that Executive Branch torture programs and destruction of evidence despite outstanding court orders and DOJ cooperation with the evidence destroyers to insulate them from liability while also preventing DOJ lawyers who solicited for torture from even getting professional misconduct referrals – – you’d like to think that there are some extraordinary circumstances there.

        OTOH, Congress and the Courts haven’t thought there was all that much extraordinary about the CIA assisting with shooting down missionary planes in South America and killing an American woman and her infant child and almost taking out her husband, the pilot, and her young son as well.

        So I don’t have much faith anymore in what this nation values as Extraordinary. Apparently, if it doesn’t involve the uber wealthy or a chick named Snooky, no institution in this nation gives a rats ass.

        • phred says:

          Thanks Mary, both for the compliment and the response : )

          However, I remain unclear on exactly what “tolling” is… From the way you and Cynthia are talking about it, it sounds like some sort of professional sanction for the lawyers who have engaged in all manner of obfuscation and skulduggery regarding our shiny new torture regime. It appears to be different from disbarment, but would it prevent lawyers from participating from certain cases or coming into certain courts or be some kind of fine?

          Just curious how exactly “tolling” would be helpful in forcing better behavior from the DoJ in the future…

        • Mary says:

          This is why I hate doing long comments on my laptop with my wireless at home. I swear I have things disappear, get locked, give me notices that database errors have occured and put me in perpetual hourglassy stuff, etc. and then I think I don’t have a comment at all and try to copy over etc. get a mishmash like that. *sigh* It ends up being such a timewaster, and all for incoherence at the end of it. :(

        • phred says:

          Well, I for one, am thankful for your persistence : )

          In the end, things get sorted out and I learn so much from you. I’ll take “incoherence” from you over the endlessly vacuous, yet clearly worded, tripe that ends up on the front pages of our most esteemed journalism outlets every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Holidays, too ; )

    • Cynthia Kouril says:

      Mary,

      sometimes I think you are a genius. OK, a lot of times.

      As a preventer of future misconduct, indefinate tolling would be a very useful precident. Those who have culpability, have a cloud over their heads for the rest of their lives/careers.

      Those considering pulling a stunt like this in future, in hopes of avoiding career distruction or criminal penalty, know that the destruction of evidence will itself provide the same problem.

      Sort of a evil reverse bird in the hand (or devil you know..) kind of choice.

      • Mary says:

        These days, I feel I’m barely functional.

        All ups have downs – one down of tolling would be that it gives the gov that ever-open “investigation” that disenfranchises the courts here from other action on civil fronts and prevents courts in other countries from proceeding. But digging in on remedies in Hellerstein’s case could be a wonderful opportunity for a really good lawyer to put some ideas on paper that could send out a few frissons of fear about what MIGHT happen if we ever had institutions that might buy into them.

        I hope they get a truly good lawyer to at least make the record.

      • fatster says:

        It is amazing how Mary can lead the uninitiated through those extraordinarily complex and arcane matters of the law–and make them intelligible. So much of what she shares is in the “keepers” category.

  5. richard says:

    This is black hilarious stuff thinking the ACLU would prevail against the US’s trained corporate terrorists CIA or NSA or Blackwater or Saudi or Moussad or Egypt torture contractors ad infinitum…in the corproate judge’s august opinion. Hhahaaha. Strategic oil war interests in national security of torture.

    The judge’s “national security interest” is PNAC 110% lucratively successful DEM-GOP oil war and torture whorehouse (courthouse) Screw the murdered constitution post- “Patriot Act”….torture for fun and big bucks ergo national security.

    Going to court is pretty damn funny in a terrorist corporate courthouse-whorehouse. Sad and funny.

    Obama’s changing this crap! Hahhaa…transparent new kind of PNAC governemnt torture enabler the coverup-in-chief dark Kenyan messiah. So useful

    • michtom says:

      Richard, this is OT, unproven, arrogant, presumptuous and a royal pain in the ass. Get a grip and keep the conspiracies in the conspiracy threads, which, in case you haven’t noticed, don’t much show up here.

  6. Frank33 says:

    June 2005: most copies of Philip Zelikow’s dissent to the May 2005 CAT memo destroyed

    Do not feel too sorry for Zelikow. Zelikow could have done something to try to stop the torture, such as going public. But he remained silent and protected the torturers.

    Zelikow did not hesitate to use the false confessions from torture as part of the 9-11 Coverup Report. It is surprising that Zelikow even objects to Government censorship and lies. Zelikow’s expertise is the use of government falsehoods and coverups to protect corrupt government policies. Zelikow was hoping for a 9-11 “watershed event” years before it actually happened in order to destroy our constitutional freedoms.

    • PeasantParty says:

      Yes, the CIA, FBI, Military, and others were USED as TOOLS to bring about and encourage a catastrophic event. However, sanity should prevail and not impede the investigations or justice.

    • phred says:

      It is surprising that Zelikow even objects to Government censorship and lies.

      If Wikileaks has shown us anything, it is that what government officials say publicly has nothing whatsoever to do with what they say privately or what they think. So I would argue (and this is not to single out Zelikow) that is is not in the least surprising that what a high government official says is the direct opposite of what they do or think.

    • richard says:

      My god I wish anyone with a mind would simply acknowledge how 911 was scripted at PNAC, subcontracted, done, police state, oil war in-progress and growing. You DID!

      The sad and not funny aspect is the Lefts’ unwillingness to grasp (therefor enable) the treasons setting our whorehose in motion. Todays sheep refuse to connect trillion dollar dots of oil war colonization, torture, arms wealth, bank frauds, Energy Task Forces of corporate taxpaid private armies where they live today.

      That is the pathetic truth about the useful “Left”…it’s useful buy-in per US media planning to sad ol’ 911 and our newly minted oil target “enemies” de jour. The bare facts are too ugly for the timid, the kept, the malleable Left-dependably weak.

        • richard says:

          Are you reading those “torture memos” now confirming their directives and /or adsmonishments or both to us?…in your above statement?

          If not, what’s the empirical basis for your empirical declaration?…putting the precise point on this discussion of course.

        • bmaz says:

          The better question is what the heck exactly are you saying? You seem to be all over the road with some kind of truther theory as a backdrop.

        • BlueCrow says:

          “9-11 did not give anyone permission to torture!”

          But, but Bush/Cheney said it did and most everyone in the three branches of our government seem to agree. Even the current President crosses his fingers behind his back whenever he speaks about it. Can’t they just move forward (with more torture and murder) so they can get what they want?

          And don’t let it make you angry, don’t let your rage speak, because some insane slug somewhere may shoot a bunch of innocent people while trying to harm one of these slugs.

          *sighs* it ain’t pretty (or safe) out here

        • richard says:

          “What we are discussing is the torture memos. 9-11 did not give anyone permission to torture!”

          the above quote evidently came from someone other than you

      • Frank33 says:

        The sad and not funny aspect is the Lefts’ unwillingness to grasp (therefor enable) the treasons setting our whorehose in motion

        I am becoming more and more disenchanted with use of these labels “Left”, “Right” and “Centrist” These political slander labels are merely stereotypes used and promoted by the Establishment.

        It is very useful to our puppetmasters of mass propaganda to call people names instead of debating issues on their merits. This website and most of the commentators have been courageous in their condemnation of the Bush/Obama torturers. I am sure that Eric Holder, and Patrick Fitzgerald and and Elena Kagan and Lindsay Graham cannot wait to make criticism of government torture and torturers, a crime.

        Especially with respect to torture, there is no liberal or conservative side. There is the Constitutional side and there are the criminals who torture, side. Bush and Obama have used torture to obtain false confessions for their wars. Bush and Obama and the rest of the torturers have commited treason.

  7. mattcarmody says:

    Can we at least find out what part the former Op40 assassin, Porter Goss, played in this crime aside from the obvious one of turning a supposedly blind eye?

  8. hotdog says:

    This is all a silly waste of time. In the US, we don’t torture. Just ask Mr. Government-Operative/Wired Magazine scoop-tool Adrian Lamo (or at least the little man in his head pulling the levers). Not only do we not torture, we hold transparency in high regard, that’s why the CIA destroyed those tapes right there in your face Judge Hellerstein. So you can better understand the rules are what the military police-state says they are. Now who’s your daddy?

    • phred says:

      Thanks fatster! From your link:

      WikiLeaks has obtained some 250,000 US diplomatic cables and handed them to five major news organisations: the New York Times, Der Spiegel, the Guardian, El Pais and Le Monde.

      [snip]

      Die Welt said it had secured access to the complete cable dump, in cooperation with Norwegian daily Aftenposten, which is also putting them out independently.

      Note that Die Welt and Aftenposten are not among the chosen 5. Looks like the genie isn’t going to get shoved back into the bottle…

  9. bluewombat says:

    The ACLU asked that he hold the CIA in contempt. Hellerstein said that wouldn’t serve much purpose.

    It would serve the purpose of instilling a healthy respect for the rule of law into the CIA, but apparently Judge Hellerstein doesn’t think much of that.

    • hotdog says:

      instilling a healthy respect for the rule of law into the CIA

      …and the snorts from McLean could be heard all the way from the Lincoln Monument.

    • Mary says:

      NO it wouldn’t. Putting an “agency” in contempt doesn’t really do anything. Putting an individual in contempt – that at least has some consequence. For the contempt, you basically assess fines or put someone in jail. You can’t put an agency in jail and the CIA has so much black money and a direct siphon from the mouths of the poor into its torturers’ pockets that it’s a laffer to assess a penalty against the agency as an agency.

  10. Mary says:

    Usually, except for murder (and I guess some espionage – I’m not an expert or super experienced in crim stuff) all criminal actions have to be brought within the statute of limitations period for those criminal charges. The same for civil actions (wrongful death, damages for torts, etc.)

    Tolling keeps a statute of limitations from expiring. So those who destroy evidence and then feel like all they have to do is use the power of the WH and DOJ for 5 or so years and then they are scott free and can’t be sued civilly or pursued by a criminal prosecutor would instead be able to be sued anytime, even many years from now, if they were involved in desctruction of evidence.

    It would not, in and of itself, result in any of those other things you mentioned – prevention of lawyers from from participating in cases or fines. OTOH, it also means that anyone who provides assistance at keeping the obfuscation going, at any time, is also now a part of a conspiracy to obstruct for a crime that doesn’t have a statute running.

    OTOH – tolling would NOT prevent a court from doing other things as well, such as fines and penalties (which don’t mean much if they are paid by an agency, only if they are assessed on individuals, imo at least and which work better if they have a statutory basis for computation), costs (like Walker did in the surveillance case), appointing its own investigator, requring more information and finding specific attorneys and individuals in contempt, etc. etc. etc.

    I just am not a believer in the “will be” of the things that “could be” these days.

    It’s interesting to look at how the approach of Executive branch torture and torturers works in the context of MLK’s approach to civil disobedience. His take:

    An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.

    required that those who break the law feel it is unjust and come forward willingly to accept the penalty imposed by the unjust law.

    The Obama and Bush Exec branches have instead taken the approach that they have assassains and torturers violate the law, then cover up their crimes; disinform the public to play games with its conscience;, destroy evidence; and abuse the Executive branch power to prevent them from ever being brought before a court, much less accepting the penalty of imprisonment.

    Then they call it all Patriotism.

    • phred says:

      Tolling keeps a statute of limitations from expiring.

      Wow! I had no idea that there was any way around the expiration of a SOL. This is the best news I’ve heard in awhile. And it is way better than a fine or disbarment.

      Sadly, like you, I have zero confidence that our subservient judiciary would ever rise to the occasion to truly smack the executive branch on the nose, but still, just to know such an option exists gives me hope : )

      What can I say, deep down, I’m an optimist ; ) Albeit a frequently disappointed, ticked off, and grumpy one ; )

      Oh, and nice job with the juxtaposition of MLK’s understanding of civil disobedience and BushObamaCo’s contemptuous misinterpretation of the rule of law.

      • fatster says:

        You said it perfectly, phred:

        “What can I say, deep down, I’m an optimist ; ) Albeit a frequently disappointed, ticked off, and grumpy one ; )”

    • bobschacht says:

      Tolling keeps a statute of limitations from expiring. So those who destroy evidence and then feel like all they have to do is use the power of the WH and DOJ for 5 or so years and then they are scott free and can’t be sued civilly or pursued by a criminal prosecutor would instead be able to be sued anytime, even many years from now, if they were involved in desctruction of evidence.

      So how exactly does this work? [I’ve got the same questions as phred. But she usually asks them before I can put my keystrokes together.]

      1. Is “tolling” something that only a judge can do?
      2. *When* can a judge invoke “tolling?” e.g., only in the judgment phase of a trial?
      3. *What* can be tolled by a judge? Only things that are materially relevant to a judgment at hand?
      4. How is something tolled identified? Does it have to be part of a litigation that can be referenced by a legal reference? Does it have to be quoted exactly, or is the judge free to express the scope of tolling in any way he sees fit?
      5. Is the tolling addressed to a certain party, or is it more like a blanket “OK, no more SOL for these matters,” leaving it open who is responsible for doing what?

      Can you give us an example of tolling that is illustrative in the present case?

      Thanks,
      Bob in AZ

      • Mary says:

        I can’t give you super clear answers on most of those questions, both from a lack of expertise and a lack of clear case law standard, but I’ll try to dig up the bones.

        Typically, in a common law court, things are done according to the rules “at law.” This would mean first statutory law, and secondarily – if there is no statute on point, according to pretty rigid case law precedence. However, in our old common law tradition, there was another option at time available for aggrieved parties who were not likely to win their case “at law.”

        Let’s say you had a contract to build a brick wall just across the front of a yard. You’re the builder. Your contract says it can only be modified by a writing, signed by you and owner. The owner discusses things with you part way through and asks you to run the wall up the sides and back to the house. You’ve got your crew there and enough supplies and you go ahead and do it. No one heard this other than you and the owner.

        The owner then pays for the front wall at the contract price but refuses to pay for the side walls. Are you plain and simply out of luck, because “at law” (your *legal* recourse) your contract is limited to the front wall and there is no modification signed by both of you?

        These kinds of things happened before this country was born, and originally it was handled by the evolution in England of courts of the Chancellor (Chancery Courts) which had the right to fashion remedies in extreme cases based on fairness and equity. These weren’t easy to get, though. You usually had to show that the other guy did something more than just successfully yank your chain. So if you couldn’t prove up your conversation and the owner had left right after it and was gone during the whole time you were putting up the side walls, you might not have the kind of extraordinary circumstances that would give you a right to an “equitable” (chancery court) remedy.

        Otoh, let’s say that even though you couldn’t prove the conversation, you could prove that the owner was there the whole time your guys were working on the side walls, went out and talked to various workers from time to time, and hung around for 8 hours giving “tsk tsks” about too much mortar and things like that while the side walls were being built. Then wouldn’t pay. Well, your contract still hasn’t changed, but the CIRCUMSTANCES are now a lot more egregious. Even if the owner didn’t have the conversation with you (the one you can’t prove, at law, or rely on even if you could prove it bc of the terms of your contract) it is extraordinarily egregious for him to sit around supervising the installation of the side walls and then refust to pay for the labor and materials.

        Enter the Chancery Court. It had a number of equitable doctrines it could use to try to make things, if not “right” then at least, less wrong. IN a case like the walls, you might able to argue a number of equitable arguments – “unjust enrichment” or “quantum meruit” or “estoppel” from relying on the contract, for example, as a grounds for the court to give you a judgment against the owner.

        But there is no set standard for when a court would think things were “extraordinary” enough for giving an equitable remedy. But Equity isn’t for the Everyday. It isn’t for just plan bad stuff. It’s for really face slapping bad stuff. And you used to have to go to a separate court for equity and if you thought you could win “at law” and lost, then you no longer had a right to seek equity from the Chancery Court.

        Fast forward (historically speaking) to the birth of our nation and setting up our courts (remember, I’m also not a historical expert, so I may have some of this a bit skewed). Setting up federal courts (a job left to Congress, but for the Supreme Court) one thing you had to figure out was what kind of powers those courts would have. Would our newly created courts be simply courts that operated at law, or would they have equitable powers (since we had no Lord Chancellor and no courts set up under such a figurehead).

        Over time it became decided that our Federal Courts do have equitable powers, but there are some huge hurdles you have to leap through to get equity in even a fully empowered State Court, much less the Federal Courts. What makes it easiest is if Congress, in statutes, confer equitable powers. I don’t know if there is anything like that in the FOIA. If there is, say something like, “and in addition to the remedies listed above, the court on review shall have the right to enter any orders at law or in equity as might be necessary or prudent to provide full and fair relief….” then you’ve got a statutory recoginition of equitable powers. YOu might even have something more direct at times, “any court having jurisdiction over such subject matter shall have all powers conferred by equity to dispose of same …”

        Absent a statutory recognition of, or grant of, equitable powers, it’s a bit more tangential. To grant equity, the court has to have “jurisdiction” that would extend as far as an equitable order might take it. Again, you get into some complex areas, as jurisdiction doesn’t always mean what you think it might mean.

        Here’s a write up on an relatively recent case, from the 1st Circuit, where the Supreme Court refused cert (wouldn’t take the case for review) but where they talk about something that might seem “fair” to you or I and where the Circuit Courts are split.

        http://www.law.suffolk.edu/highlights/stuorgs/lawreview/documents/Thornton_Comment_Final.pdf

        In the case of US v. Coloian, an attorney and Mayor’s Chief of Staff was indicted by a federal Grand Jury. After trial, he was acquitted and he moved to have the court expunge his criminal record because of the impact that would have on him as a lawyer and in politics. The First Circuit said – no, we don’t really have the kind of jurisdiction that allows us to do that, give you the equitable relief of expungement.

        It said it had jurisdiction to expunge as a remedy if the arrest or prosecution had violated law. But this was a case where no one was provign the prosecution was illegal, just that the defendant was acquitted. The First noted the other Circuits that agreed with it and those that disagreed, a pretty fair split. It’s an interesting case bc they discuss the fact that, if a statute doesn’t recognize or confer the equitable power, then that equitable power has to exist under “ancillary jurisdiction” and the First then discusses Justice Scalia’s discussion of ancillary jurisdiction in the Sup Ct case of Kokkonen v. Guardian Life

        Insurance Co. of America (a 1994 unanimous decision).

        Usually, the “jurisdiction” used for a court to grant equitable relief is the power that Scalia recognized was inherent to: “enable a court to function successfully, that is, to manage its proceedings, vindicate its authority, and effectuate its decrees.”

        I’m thinking there’s nothing more central to enabling a court of function successfully, manage its proceedings, vindicate its authority and effectuate its decrees than the power to smack the snot out of parties before it who hide behind the protections of their institutional/agency fronts in order to personally violate the courts orders and achieve personal benefit from those acts.

        OTOH, what Hellerstein has before him IIRC (and I may not, I’ve never paid the kind of attention I should have to comment on these cases) is a FOIA request. Can he enter an order that would toll statutes for other actions, not before him? I’m sure that DOJ has Memorandized themselves to protect their rights facilitate evidence destruction and misreps to the court. I mean – the Sup Ct itself has never seen fit to take issue with the Clement misreps to it on torture in a very specific case on point, so it’s not likely that a District Court is going to go where the Sup Ct itself has not gone. When there’s no institutional response whatsoever by the SUp Ct to Clement saying we don’t do things like torture; to Comey asserting that the facts on the Maher Arar case are being covered up by the DOJ for interests of National Security; to the same assertions with respect to Germans with the wrong name (el-Masri) and even Americans on American soil (Padilla) then it’s a bit much to expect a District Court to have to step up and on its own lift up the bench and bar.

        At least back in the days when a Judge like Damon Keith did that kind of thing, you didn’t have a Sup Ct that had already refused to speak on Exec Branch torture being discussed worldwide, based solely on the simpering invocations of an implicated Dept. of Justice.

        You have to figure that Hellerstein in the end is going to grouse some, but when it comes to real consequences, he’s going to figure that if the SUp Ct doesn’t care when it gets fibbed to about torture – even when that fib is exposed worldwide – what can he realistically do?

        I just hope someone makes the record – because one day, eventually, in the end, equity outs. It has to, because the law can’t breath without the heartbeat of equity at its core.

        I just don’t think we are going to live to see it. Not here, not now, not with the players on the field.

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          Nice summary.

          Equity in England and Wales (the Scots’ legal system, owing to historical connections with France, has more civil, European law elements to it) developed as an alternative source of law to the king’s common law courts, eventually developing its own judicial system.

          The US inherited the notion of equity, notably the idea of equitable remedies, which filled in gaps in the statutory and common law, but it was explicitly integrated into the common law, not kept separate. Nowadays, statutes and precedent cover wider, often extremely particular points of law and seem to leave little room or need for courts to devise equitable solutions.

          The Obama administration, following on the legal excesses of its predecessor, is recreating that need all over again. To borrow the question Sean Connery’s character’s asked of Eliot Ness in the Untouchables, federal courts, “What are you prepared to do?”

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          One reason equity developed as it did was that for ages, complaints had to be made following explicit formulas known as writs. If a lawyer and judge couldn’t agree that an action fit the requirements of a writ, it couldn’t proceed and there was no remedy “at law”.

          Equity dealt largely with property, lots of it, as access to courts via barristers and solicitors was an expensive undertaking. It developed its own rigidities and conflicts. See Dickens’ Jarndyce v. Jarndyce, a semi-fictional interminable contest over an inheritance. Eventually, after generations of dispute, there was nothing left to be distributed.

          The rise of the middle class, from the mid-18th to mid-20th centuries, owing to agricultural reforms, technology and the growth of trade, led to enhanced access to the vote and to legal reforms.

        • bobschacht says:

          Equity dealt largely with property, lots of it, as access to courts via barristers and solicitors was an expensive undertaking.

          This suggests to me that equity might be at stake in the mortgage crisis fraud, too.

          Bob in AZ

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          I think it is, but there are also 50 state legal systems at play here, plus DC’s, each with their own peculiar take on equity, not to mention Louisiana’s civil code-based system.

          The bank’s ought to be worried, though, if an old threshold requirement from equity still applies. That is, that a party desiring equity must first come to the courts with “clean hands”, that it not have contributed intentionally to the harm for which it now seeks an equitable remedy. I fail to see how most banks, let alone these interbank systems, could meet that burden.

          Many of these homeowners do, not only those who actually owe nothing to these banks or are current on their payments, but those who have made concerted efforts to seek reasonable renegotiated terms that, on their face, would seem economically cost-effective.

          One reason banks fail to renegotiate is that there is no incentive for them to do so: no bankruptcy or other remedy that creates a floor for a harried debtor; no statutory requirement that they attempt it; and no industry, governmental or social expectation that they act responsibly. Another is that, as more than one Congresscritter has lamented about the banks’ relationship with the federal government – executive and legislative – “They own the place.”

      • Mary says:

        Ok -with that long spiel above to explain equity as a whole better – your questions:

        “1. Is “tolling” something that only a judge can do?”

        Yes.

        “2. *When* can a judge invoke “tolling?” e.g., only in the judgment phase of a trial?”

        Any time “the equities” require and he has jurisdiction (see long rambly answer above). You have to have something pending in front of a judge, but the stage of the proceedings when the relief of tolling is granted will vary with the equities.

        “3. *What* can be tolled by a judge? Only things that are materially relevant to a judgment at hand?” Specifically, tolling is about statutes of limitations and only those are “tolled” and as to which statutes can be tolled, you get into the issues of jurisdiction and ancillary jurisdiction. Typcially tolling would come up in the context of a specific case against a specific person – not a FOIA issue.

        “4. How is something tolled identified?”

        By the language the Judge uses – referencing a specific statute to as broad as tolling “all claims and causes arising out of …” etc.

        “Does it have to be part of a litigation that can be referenced by a legal reference?”

        Not sure what you mean, but based on my best guess, I’d say yes?

        “Does it have to be quoted exactly, or is the judge free to express the scope of tolling in any way he sees fit?” Tolling is equitable, which means it is fact dependent so the judge can express the scope, as long as the judge has “jurisdiction” (see above) with respect to the scope.

        “5. Is the tolling addressed to a certain party, or is it more like a blanket “OK, no more SOL for these matters,” leaving it open who is responsible for doing what?” It has to be addressed towards the persons, either named and known, or unnamed but otherwise describable as by act (like a John Doefiling) whose acts give rise to the egregious inequities.

        all fwiw.

  11. earlofhuntingdon says:

    That December 2007 fire in Darth Cheney’s offices has always puzzled me. It’s the most fire-protected real estate in America. Dick and his chiefs of staff were among the Beltway’s most careful people.

    Was it simply a case of data destruction gone out of control? Leaving a couple of Cubans smoldering too close to the shredder while Dick had to be helped to the lavatory? Or was it intended as a smoke signal to a wider community (follow Dick down the yellow brick road) or a rare example of shit happens even to a guy who regarded himself as impregnable to such realities? Inquiring minds want to know.

  12. tjbs says:

    Simple as this, we argue about the destruction of “tapes” instead of the destruction of “suspects” on the tapes and the International crime of Torture.

    Is this a great country or what ?

    Do we sell Depleted Uranium to our bestest buddies ?