Trump Wants to Hide His Attempt to Assassinate Mike Pence from Voters

In 2016, Donald Trump bragged, “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters, OK?”

This election, Trump wants to hide from voters details of how he almost killed his Vice President, Mike Pence, and his claim that doing so was an official act protected by presidential immunity.

That’s the primary thing you need to know about the joint status report presented to Judge Tanya Chutkan in Trump’s January prosecution last night.

Jack Smith doesn’t propose a schedule (thereby avoiding any claim he’s trying to push pre-election developments), but he’s ready to get this process started right away. He does want Judge Chutkan to make determinations regarding immunity first and foremost. He cites Chutkan’s own order and SCOTUS’ remand order to justify that.

The Court has indicated that it intends to conduct its determinations related to immunity first and foremost. See, e.g., ECF No. 197 (Order denying without prejudice the defendant’s motion to dismiss the previous indictment on statutory grounds and specifying that he “may file a renewed motion once all issues of immunity have been resolved”). The Government agrees with this approach, both because the Supreme Court directed such a process on remand, see Trump v. United States, 144 S. Ct. 2312, 2340 (2024), and because the Supreme Court has “repeatedly . . . stressed the importance of resolving immunity questions at the earliest possible stage in litigation,” Hunter v. Bryant, 502 U.S. 224, 227 (1991) (internal citations omitted).

Trump, by contrast, wants to stall any consideration of immunity until December 13 by first litigating a challenge to Jack Smith’s appointment that Aileen Cannon approved but which conflicts with several binding precedents in the DC Circuit (and which Trump pointedly didn’t try before Chutkan last fall, when he submitted all his other motions to dismiss).

Trump-appointed Judge Mark Scarsi rejected Hunter Biden’s similar attempt to challenge David Weiss’ Special Counsel appointment in the wake of Judge Cannon’s ruling as untimely, and there’s good reason to believe that would be the likely outcome here, even before getting to the binding DC Circuit precedent.

You need look no further than Trump’s description of what he wants to challenge in the superseding indictment to understand why Trump wants to delay this fight until December: As I predicted, he wants to have the Mike Pence allegations thrown out.

In addition, while continuing to strongly maintain that many classes of conduct alleged in the Superseding Indictment are immune—including, but not limited to, Tweets and public statements about the federal 2020 Presidential election, communications with state officials about the federal election, and allegations relating to alternate slates of electors—President Trump may file a motion to dismiss focused specifically on the Special Counsel’s improper use of allegations related to Vice President Pence, along with other potential key threshold motions. Namely, in Trump, the Supreme Court held that President Trump is “at least presumptively immune from prosecution for” all alleged efforts “to pressure the Vice President to take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification proceeding.” Trump v. United States, 144 S. Ct. 2312, 2336 (2024). These same allegations are foundational to the Superseding Indictment and each of its four counts. See Doc. 226 at ¶¶ 5, 9(b), 11(c)-(d), 14, 51(b), 55, 67–90, 99–100. If the Court determines, as it should, that the Special Counsel cannot rebut the presumption that these acts are immune, binding law requires that the entire indictment be dismissed because the grand jury considered immunized evidence. Trump, 144 S. Ct. 2312, 2340 (2024) (“Presidents . . . cannot be indicted based on conduct for which they are immune from prosecution.”).

The Special Counsel’s inability to rebut the presumption as to Pence is dispositive to this case. The special counsel will be unable to do so as a matter of law, thus rendering the remainder of the case moot. Trump, 144 S. Ct. 2312, 2337 (2024) (“We therefore remand to the District Court to assess in the first instance, with appropriate input from the parties, whether a prosecution involving Trump’s alleged attempts to influence the Vice President’s oversight of the certification proceeding in his capacity as President of the Senate would pose any dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” (emphasis added)).

To be sure, he’s not wrong to challenge the inclusion of the Pence allegations. Nor is he wrong in his view of how central Pence is to this indictment (though he overstates when he claims it would moot all else; the fake electors plot might survive the excision of the Mike Pence allegations).

As I explained, Justice Roberts raised the conversations with Pence specifically. But as I also explained, that is one of the shrewd things Jack Smith did in superseding the indictment: he stripped out all other things that obviously fit under Roberts’ guidelines, leaving only Trump’s efforts to get Pence to throw out the votes of 81 million Biden voters and when Pence refused, Trump’s action — a tweet — that almost got Pence assassinated.

Trump may well succeed in arguing that he can’t be prohibited from asking Pence to overturn the results of the election so the two of them could remain in power because any such prohibition would chill the normal conversations between Presidents and their Vice Presidents. That is simply the absurd logical result of Roberts’ opinion: that a President can order his Vice President to steal an election because any prohibition on doing so would chill the authority of the President.

But if Jack Smith has his way, Trump will have to make that argument — once, probably in a court filing in October — before voters go to the polls in November.

There are a bunch of legal details in this status report. But given the near certainty that if Trump wins, the entire prosecution will go away, the only one that really matters is that, this election, Trump isn’t so sure that he would lose no votes if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue — or if voters learned why and how he almost had his Vice President assassinated in the US Capitol — as he was in 2016.

Trump doesn’t want to tell voters he thinks that as President, he could have Mike Pence shot on the Senate floor — shot as punishment because his Vice President refused an illegal order to steal an election — and be immune from any consequences for doing so.

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49 replies
  1. PensionDan says:

    I predict Smith will get his way on this & Chutkan will resolve the immunity questions first. Trump’s lawyers will make the damning argument, but the mainstream media will wordsmith their coverage to hide it.

    • Error Prone says:

      Wordsmithing is one option, the more likely, non-reporting. Just leave it out as non-news. A subsequent comment, 8:10 am, “Smith’s revision of the indictment to focus on Trump and Pence as candidates for office, and Pence as the ceremonial presiding officer of the Senate ought to get over the immunity hurdle in a rational world,” lays out a terse wordsmithing reporting outline leaving out the assassination black eye, simply reporting how a non-official capacity matters. One way or the other, it will be bowdlerized reporting to keep the horserace going.

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      That’s exactly what the Supreme Court told her to do, and it might well require briefing and witness testimony to do it. Conveniently for Smith, Chutkan has virtually unfettered discretion to control her briefing and trial schedule.

  2. Amicus12 says:

    So, you have it spot on. It’s also worth noting that Drebeen acknowledged in response to Justice Kagan’s question that the treatment of conversations with the Vice President “is one of the most difficult questions for the Department of Justice.” Tr. 127-28.
    https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2023/23-939_f2qg.pdf

    Smith’s revision of the indictment to focus on Trump and Pence as candidates for office, and Pence as the ceremonial presiding officer of the Senate ought to get over the immunity hurdle in a rational world.

    On schedule, Judge Chutkan has ample discretion and tools.

    I think Trump’s lawyers missed a bet in front of Judge Cannon. While they moved to dismiss the case on Appointment grounds, they did not move to disqualify Smith from representing the United States. Had they done so, and had she granted it, which would have been consistent with her (awful) ruling, that would have arguably had preclusive effect and had all sorts of repercussions with respect to the 11th Circuit appeal and the DC proceeding. For whatever reason, Cannon limited her decision to her case. Yet more questionable/substandard lawyering.

    I suspect she schedules the immunity briefing first, to be done some time in October.

    • SteveBev says:

      Thanks for drawing attention to the exchange between Kagan and Dreeben in oral argument. I would suggest anyone who is interested should follow your link to see both the precise questions and the answer.

      It goes to show how much Dreeben and the Special Counsel team have refined their analysis in the light of the actual decision, and what might have appeared a difficult question seems much easier to answer once Pence constitutional and candidate capacities are properly reflected in the analysis, thus clarifying that the lobbying by Trump of Pence re his counting of electors is not an Executive Branch matter at all.

      • BRUCE F COLE says:

        Plus, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere here, Trump’s inability to summarily direct Pence to fuck with the EC count is probative as to whether Trump was doing his day job, or just working for himself — as was Pence’s ability to basically just flip him off.

        • Rayne says:

          It says something, too, that another former VP told then-serving VP that messing with the EC count wasn’t his job.

        • BRUCE F COLE says:

          This means that there’s a Separation of Powers-derived inherent conflict there, as the Presidency has no authority over Congress. That’s why Pence could flip Trump the bird, and why Trump was powerless to affect the EC outcome, other than by rogue actions outside the bounds of the Constitution.

          Therefore Trump was not acting in an offficial capacity when he was fomenting the insurrection and trying to force Pence to assist in his coup attempt.

  3. Mark Corker says:

    White boarding an out here:

    Smith makes a focused argument about Pence assassination.
    Chutkan strategically rules that it’s not immune so Trump can appeal and the turd gets thrown right back in Robert’s lap?

    • emptywheel says:

      Yes. I think that’s what would happen, by design.

      And ultimately, SCOTUS will be left to choose whether they REALLY want to go there.

      If Trump has lost by then, they may not bother, because the implications are ridiculous. If he wins, it’ll be thrown out by Attorney General Mike Davis before then.

      • P-villain says:

        Davis makes Big Dick Toilet Salesman Matt Whitaker look like a legal scholar. This clown clerked for Gorsuch?!?!

      • kpavlovic says:

        Per Open Secrets: founder and president of Article III Project, former Chief Counsel for Nominations Senate Judiciary Committee (Grassley), clerked twice for Gorsuch, JD 2004 University of Iowa; the Article III Project website says of him “Mike Davis is known as a take-no-prisoners conservative eager to challenge the left with hardball tactics” – a real piece of work

        • SteveBev says:

          “What I want to do with the Article III Project is take off the gloves, put on the brass knuckles, and fight back.”
          A3P Founder Mike Davis, as reported in The New York Times

          As quoted on A3P website “About Mike Davis”

        • BRUCE F COLE says:

          His having worked for Grassley is one of the main reasons I think Grassley really was intent on standing in for Pence and fucking with the EC. Grassley’s blurting out on the 5th that he was going to wield the gavel was stupid, but weirdly honest.

      • BRUCE F COLE says:

        To kpalovic:Another factor in that regard is that if Harris wins bigly, Roberts, Kavanagh and Barrett will likely be moved by the court-reform writing on the wall to cool their jets in the hopes that their signaling thus to Congress might help shade those reforms to become milquetoast or minmal.

    • Hoping4better_times says:

      No doubt that trump and his defense team want interminable delays in the hope he wins the election. If Judge Chutkan rules that trump does not have Immunity in Smith’s revised indictment and trump appeals, would the appeal have to heard first by the DC Appeals Court? Or can trump leapfrog over the DC Appeals bench and appeal directly to SCOTUS?

      • John Herbison says:

        A ruling by Judge Chutkan regarding immunity would be appealable as of right to the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. Once the notice of appeal is filed, either party can apply to SCOTUS for review by certiorari before judgment pursuant to Supreme Court Rule 11 and 28 U.S.C. § 2101(e). Whether to grant such review is discretionary with SCOTUS.

    • Fraud Guy says:

      He wants immunity for everything; since he is no longer President, his supporters are trying to get it for him piecemeal.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        Piecemeal? Like buying a piece of his suit, that’s really a 1″x1″ piece cut from an endlessly long bolt of cloth, not his suit.

        • MsJennyMD says:

          Greed and grift. Perhaps his next scam will be a picture of he and his friend, Hannibal Lecter eating a bowl of fava beans with bacon watching wind turbines to sell to his followers.

  4. Bay State Librul says:

    If Trump wins, maybe Mike Davis will become Attorney General and make Barr’s landing the plane look like
    child’s play

    • -mamake- says:

      Thanks for the link & the reminder, SL.
      Might you know how to find and watch “Justice” the award-winning documentary on Brett “Boof” Kavanaugh? (Taping into your librarian tag.)

      • Master Slacker says:

        You are able to stream Justice by renting or purchasing on Apple TV, Google Play Movies, and Fandango At Home.

  5. Chuffy sez says:

    Where’s Mike Pence in all of this? If he is such an upstanding and courageous person for doing his duty, why isn’t he defending himself more loudly in all of this? Another thing that was clear at the time is that there were several members of Congress involved. How is it that they are not under indictment as well?

    When Republicans repeat the electoral strategy again, and it is clear to me that this is already in motion, I’m wondering if the Democratic Party has a strategy to prevent the ratfuckery. Can people be arrested while committing illegal acts in real time, or is this going to be another case of waiting six months to a year while the DOJ investigates? If DJT brags about shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue, and we know he has a gun, and we know he’s going to Fifth Avenue to shoot somebody, wouldn’t we be ready to either stop him or immediately respond?

    • GrantS01 says:

      Pence was a coward until (with help) he followed the law and ignored Trump’s request.

      But is he still a coward or is he keeping quiet to not publicly influence court judgement?

      I think he’s a toady at heart and not brave enough to call out an obvious wrong even when he’s the person wronged. If he’d been murdered even his ghost would waffle because no one told him it was wrong to blame Trump.

  6. Sportingdog says:

    IANAL, given that if the allegations about setting Pence up for mob justice are ruled immune it could sink the whole case, could SC have empaneled two grand juries?
    One for the Pence allegations, one for everything else, to preserve some parts of the case if SCOTUS decides again to rescue Trump.

  7. soundgood2 says:

    If Judge Chutkan rules for the DOJ, is there a way for the defense to get an emergency stay of the proceedings from SCOTUS?

  8. originalK says:

    Didn’t we cover at one point an “ouroboric” argument? This defense quote sticks out for me (which it probably was intended to):

    “[t]he essence of immunity is its possessor’s entitlement not to have to answer for his conduct in court.” Trump v. U.S.

    That he has some immunity means he has full immunity because trying to find the perimeter of his immunity impinges on his immunity.

    • originalK says:

      Because the defense notes that it omitted internal quotations and the citation (Mitchell v. Forsyth 472), I dug into this a bit more, and, as per usual, not only is it creatively quoting the opinion, the Trump opinion’s citation is a “creative” one:

      Mitchell actually says “the essence of absolute immunity is its possessor’s entitlement not to have to answer for his conduct in a civil damages action. See Nixon v. Fitzgerald” And so here we are, right back where we started.

  9. KittyRehn says:

    Would Trump’s tweets about Pence on J6 be covered under presidential immunity given that they came from the @realdonaldtrump account and not the @POTUS account? If he had a choice between using the official POTUS account and his personal account, and ultimately chose to use his personal account, he would be speaking (tweeting?) as a private individual and not as President, right?

    • Konny_2022 says:

      I tried to stress the fact that the realDonaldTrump could only publicize statements by citizen Trump and not the president already back in early 2017. Unfortunately the tweets from his personal twitter account were taken as equal to those from the POTUS account by both the media and general public, and even government bodies, if I remember correctly. In the spring of 2017, one agency just disregarded an announcement by realDT tweet when he didn’t confirmed it through the regular line of command, or at least on POTUS. But I don’t recall other such instances.

      So I agree with you, Kitty, but am skeptical whether this argument still holds for the last weeks befor Jan. 20, 2021.

    • emptywheel says:

      The Knight Foundation successfully sued to prevent Trump from blocking people on his Twitter account, so there’s precedent that it was quasi-official that Trump is relying on.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        By the same token, one can use a medium or technology to order pizza or an air strike. Only one of those would be an official act.

      • vigetnovus says:

        I would also point out that the SC opinion specifically mused that the question on whether a tweet is an official act or not may turn on “…who was involved in transmitting the electronic communications…” Meaning, if the Tweets were pre drafted by campaign staff or if they were sent by campaign staff, that might make them “unofficial.”

        It’s one of the reasons I think Smith pushed so hard to get the metadata from Trump’s Twitter account. The fact that those tweets are still in the indictment makes me think Smith has some argument that they are not official.

  10. Savage Librarian says:

    Despite the shortcomings of the Harris-Walz interview on CNN, I think we actually learned a great deal through nonverbal communication. I was particularly struck by the range of emotion in tone of voice and facial expressions that Kamala Harris had in response to questions about Joe Biden. She impressed me as being sincere and authentic. I believe her when she says, “the true measure of the strength of a leader is based on who you lift up.”

    It is very evident that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have a great deal of respect for each other. And it is equally evident that Harris and Walz also are committed to, not only lifting each other up, but also lifting up the nation.

    Just as obvious is the fact that Trump felt entitled to beat Pence down for refusing to do something illegal. If Trump and the Roberts’ court stand behind their contentions, why are they trying so hard to hide what really happened? (rhetorical)

    • Rayne says:

      This would have been better under the emptywheel Fridays with Nicole Sandler post which are generally open threads.

      Let’s try to stay on topic here which is Trump’s effort to hide his attempted murder-by-mob of then-VP and President of the Senate Mike Pence.

  11. Pick2orPass says:

    It’s why I was wondering who would even take the VP role with Trump, knowing all that stuff that happened just on Jan 6th. Indeed, Pence went thru a lot of undue pressure, even before that. It had to be at the front of some minds when they went shopping for a new candidate. They would have to ask first: who’s not smart, or who won’t care? Risky business! Then there’s Vance..

    • Rayne says:

      Who may have been bought by persons they either fear/respect/have enough money to make the hassle worthwhile = JD Vance

  12. e.a. foster says:

    I’m sure Trump doesn’t want to have the public thinking about how he endangered Mike Pence’s life. When I first heard the words, :hang Mike Pence it really was scary. The guy who kept looking for Nancy Pelosi, with ‘Nancy”, just thought if they get their hands on her, she will be dead. Any one who argues that would have been a legit action because they were President, is not playing with a full deck. It still boggles my mind that it happened. Of course Trump may have opened the door to have some one shoot him, dead, become President, and declare they had the right to do so because they are now President.
    I truly would like the Democrats to win. Watching another riot and not knowing if the mob would get their hands on Pence and Pelosi or in this case others, is more than my 75 yr old mind wants to deal with.
    One of the nice things about a democracy is no one is beyond the law. But then it would appear Trump wants to be king or something along those lines. Trump and Vance are a matched set of book ends. Guess we can wait and see if either one of them shoots the other.

  13. artem1s_02SEP2024_0847h says:

    Seems likes he’s outright admitting it now because he expects to get immunity for pressuring the VP to fix the election for him.

    “Fox News over the weekend aired the second part of a Trump interview with close media ally Mark Levin. In the course of their conversation, Trump said something about election subversion that turned some heads.

    “Who ever heard, you get indicted for interfering in a presidential election where you have every right to do it, you get indicted and your poll numbers go up? When people get indicted, their poll numbers go down,” Trump said.”

    [Welcome to emptywheel. Please choose and use a UNIQUE username with a minimum of 8 letters. We have adopted this minimum standard to support community security. Because your username is far too similar to another community member’s, it will be temporarily changed to match the date/time of your first known comment until you have a new compliant username. Thanks. /~Rayne]

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