The Disappearing Cheshire Cat I Found in the Rabbit Hole Where Lee Chatfield Was Hiding
I first fell into the rabbit hole of the largely invisible appendix looking for Lee Chatfield.
At the time Trump called him and then-Michigan Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey to the White House in November 2020, Chatfield was Michigan’s House Speaker. And one of the first things that I realized about the appendix is that Jack Smith relied on Shirkey’s January 6 interview — exclusively, it seems. But he relied — again, exclusively — on DOJ’s own interview with Chatfield (which appears, in sealed form, at roughly pages GA 70 through GA 82). To confirm that that was Chatfield and try to puzzle through why Smith might rely on J6C interviews for some people but do his own interview for others, I took the trouble to index the identifiable interviews. Among other things, I discovered a third interview pertaining to Michigan, a witness whose name falls between Barr and Bowers (Michigan State Senator Tom Barrett also attended the meeting, but it could also be MI Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson), as well as about 36 pages of interview transcripts, from GA 323 to 359, from Ronna McDaniel.
My original hypothesis about why Smith did his own interview of Chatfield was probably wrong. Chatfield was indicted in Michigan for embezzlement in April, and I figured you’d want to lock in the testimony of someone who is in legal trouble himself. A more likely explanation is that Chatfield’s interview with J6C was considered informal, so Smith had to get more formal testimony.
But one thing it the additional interviews allowed Smith to do was sort through a seeming discrepancy about the meeting. As the January 6 Committee Report noted, Shirkey and Chatfield had slightly different memories of the event, with Shirkey denying that Trump made any precise ask, whereas Chatfield described that he understood Trump’s “directive” about having “backbone” to be a request to overturn the election by naming fake electors.
Although Shirkey says he did not recall the President making any precise “ask,” Chatfield recalled President Trump’s more generic directive for the group to “have some backbone and do the right thing.”157 Chatfield understood that to mean they should investigate claims of fraud and overturn the election by naming electors for President Trump.158 Shirkey told the President that he was not going to do anything that would violate Michigan law.159
157. Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Informal Interview of Lee Chatfield (Oct. 15, 2021). Leader Shirkey did not remember any specific “ask” from the President during the Oval Office meeting. Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Michael Shirkey, (June 8, 2022), p. 16 (“One thing I do remember is that he never, ever, to the best of my recollection, ever made a specific ask. It was always just general topics[.]”).
158. Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Informal Interview of Lee Chatfield (Oct. 15, 2021).
159. Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Michael Shirkey, (June 8, 2022), p. 57.
As it is, there’s something missing in this telling. The report describes that Rudy Giuliani was on the call. But it makes no mention that, even though she had specifically told Trump she couldn’t be involved in a meeting with legislators because it might amount to lobbying, he had patched Ronna McDaniel into the call.
That detail does appear in Mike Shirkey’s testimony (he claimed that she said nothing of substance). But Shirkey offered the detail of McDaniel’s participation long after Chatfield’s “informal interview” on October 15, 2021 and a week after McDaniel’s own interview on June 1, 2022, in which her participation in the call never came up.
Smith’s brief doesn’t say much about what McDaniel said, though this section does cite to what must be her interview. He did reveal that McDaniel made the initial contact with Shirkey and Chatfield, then got looped into the call after being warned against participating.
On November 20, three days before Michigan’s Governor signed a certificate of ascertainment appointing Biden’s electors based on the popular vote, the defendant met with [Mike Shirkey] and [Lee Chatfield], Michigan’s Senate Majority Leader and Speaker of the House, at the Oval Office.148 The defendant initiated the meeting by asking RNC Chairwoman [McDaniel] to reach out to [Chatfield] and gauge his receptivity to a meeting.149 The defendant also asked [McDaniel] to participate in the meeting, but [McDaniel] told him that she had consulted with her attorney and that she could not be involved in a meeting with legislators because it could be perceived as lobbying.150 After [McDaniel] made the first contact, on November 18, the defendant reached out to [Shirkey] and [Chatfield] to extend an invitation.151
Shirkey testified that Trump made no specific ask. But, as noted, Chatfield was more equivocal.
The January 6 Committee described Chatfield’s description of Trump’s calls in the following weeks.
That was not the end, however. Chatfield and Shirkey received numerous calls from the President in the weeks following the election. Chatfield told the Select Committee that he received approximately five to ten phone calls from President Trump after the election, during which the President would usually ask him about various allegations of voter fraud.161 Chatfield said that he repeatedly looked into the President’s claims but never found anything persuasive that could have changed the outcome of the election.162
But it doesn’t provide a detail about follow-up calls included in the immunity brief: That Rudy contacted Chatfield and asked him to throw out the valid votes.
Despite failing to establish any valid fraud claims, [Rudy] followed up with [Shirkey] and [Chatfield] and attempted to pressure them to use the Michigan legislature to overturn the valid election results. On December 4, [Rudy] sent a message to [Chatfield] claiming that Georgia was poised to do so (based on [Rudy’s] and [John Eastman’s] false advocacy there in the December 3 hearing) and asked [Chatfield] for help: “Looks like Georgia may well hold some factual hearings and change the certification under ArtII sec 1 cl 2 of the Constitution. As [Eastman] explained they don’t just have the right to do it but the obligation. . . . Help me get this done in Michigan.”168 On December 7, [Rudy] attempted to send [Shirkey] a message (though failed because he typed the wrong number into his phone): “So I need you to pass a joint resolution from the Michigan legislature that states that, * the election is in dispute, * there’s an ongoing investigation by the Legislature, and * the Electors sent by Governor Whitmer are not the official Electors of the State of Michigan and do not fall within the Safe Harbor deadline of Dec 8 under Michigan law.”169 Campaign operative [Mike Roman] was involved in the drafting of this message with the assistance of [P41] who was associated with the defendant’s Campaign efforts in Michigan.170 The following day, [Rudy] shared the draft with the defendant, sending it to his executive assistant, [Molly Michael], by email.
That’s a far more specific ask than Chatfield admitted to with J6C.
This passage is all sourced to an entirely sealed section of Appendix III, but the type of evidence included there is somewhat obvious. The section relies on:
- 168: A text to Chatfield
- 169: Something recording Rudy’s attempt to send a text (to the wrong phone number!) and 10 more pages documenting what message Rudy wanted to send.
- 170: One page showing some proof that Mike Roman and [P41] were involved in this messaging attempt.
- 171: Rudy sharing the draft with Trump, via Molly Michael.
It’s possible this evidence doesn’t include evidence obtained from Rudy’s phone in April 2021; for example, Smith could prove that Rudy missent the text via Rudy’s call data and the text to Chatfield, showing a very specific ask, could have come from Chatfield. The text to Shirkey could not have come from Shirkey, though, because he never received the message (which may be why Shirkey was much sketchier about any asks from Trump than Chatfield, because he didn’t receive this shamelessly direct ask). But, particularly given that the email to Michael is just one page long (when asked, she provided no specifics about communications pertaining to Chatfield and Shirkey in her J6C interview), it may well have partly relied on that phone seizure and may well have been necessary.
If it came from the phone, though, it came from legal steps Lisa Monaco first put into motion on her first day on the job, months before J6C was even formalized.
Wherever it came from, the added detail could be utterly critical to proving the case against Trump. Before you get this additional evidence (from both Rudy’s and, possibly, Roman’s phone, as well as an email sent to Molly Michael), you’ve got Chatfield and Shirkey claiming Trump made no specific ask. After you get the additional evidence (and so long as you reach the bar of proving that Rudy was Trump’s co-conspirator in this nefarious effort), you have a very specific ask to just throw out the legal votes that Rayne and I and millions of other Michiganders cast for Joe Biden in 2020.
“Will no one rid me of this turbulent
priestballot result?”Yeah, that’s not at all a specific ask.
Henry…(TFG)…not everyone can be at your “Becket call”.
It must be hard for defense counsel to have to show up and tell a judge that all this is official conduct of the President of the United States, acting as President, wanting to have campaign voting results screwed around with in a way contrary to law. Earn that fee, if it ever gets paid.
Mike Shirkey, who appeared on stage at a protest with a Whitmer kidnapping indictee in May 2020, and met with leaders of three “militias” (whom the MI State Police helped him identify!) in September 2020. Of course Trump made a specific ask, that’s why he asked the boys to fly to DC, so he could solicit an illegal act in person with no electronic trail.
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I have wondered when it may have become known within MIGOP circles that Chatfield had some issues which could have been exploitable as kompromat.
He’d had a run-in with law enforcement related to firearms security in 2018, after he’d tried to pass a bill related to handgun registration in 2017.
https://www.petoskeynews.com/story/news/local/2018/08/01/chatfield-detained-at-airport-after-loaded-gun-found-in-carry-o/116517626/
Not as compromising as his sex with an underage future sister-in-law, though. Though that story didn’t emerge until after 2021 inauguration, was it known inside MIGOP?
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/01/former-house-speaker-lee-chatfield-admits-affair-denies-sexual-assault-allegations-from-sister-in-law.html
Chatfield has even more baggage but I think these two items are the ones which could have been used as leverage in 2020 — if there was any intra-party intelligence about the latter matter.
Rayne
What a piece of work Chatfield is. Hadn’t paid any attention to him until now. He was littering compromat all over the place it seems, so I thought it might be helpful to others if I add the following details.
I note the affair in the telling of the now sister-in-law began 2009 when she was 14/15 and he was her 21 year old teacher in a small Baptist School.
She married his brother when she was 18 ~ 2011 and the affair continued for about 12 years until 2021 when she was 26/27.
The investigation into that matter began in 2022 and uncovered all sorts of financial shenanigans involving Chatfield, his wife and campaign staff. Eventually in April 2024 Chatfield and his wife and others were charged with embezzlement and larceny of very substantial sums from non profit organisations, Peninsula Fund, his own electoral political action committees, The Chatfield Majority Fund and The Chatfield Majority Fund 2, and the state budget of the Michigan House of Representatives. The State alleges Lee used non-profit funds to pay off personal credit card expenses, sought improper mileage reimbursements from the House of Representatives for district-to-Lansing travel that never occurred, implemented a check kickback scheme to move PAC money through staff and back to his pocket, and sublet an apartment, paid for by the Peninsula Fund, for his own profit.
The embezzled funds paid for a luxury lifestyle including foreign travel. And covered a period from 2018 to 2021
The sexual allegations against the sister-in-law were not pursued.
https://eu.freep.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/16/michigan-house-speaker-lee-chatfield-charged-embezzlement-nessel/72097431007/
Freep report
It is not clear when the Dems clamour for investigation occurred
But high living for a period of over 3 years overlapping with a long term affair with his sister in law, plus other affairs all of which tangled relationships and theft while being a high profile politician suggests that he was bucking for a fall.
AG press release
With link to felony complaint
https://www.michigan.gov/ag/news/press-releases/2024/04/16/attorney-general-nessel-charges-former-state-house-speaker-lee-chatfield
“sought improper mileage reimbursements from the House of Representatives for district-to-Lansing travel that never occurred”
That incident with the gun at the Petoskey airport was likely before a trip to capital city Lansing — about a 4-hour drive. I wonder how many airplane trips he made instead of taking a car, and whether those were part of the district-to-Lansing mileage requests.
Chatfield’s from Levering MI which is a speck on the map in Emmett County, pop. 34K. Can’t imagine what Chatfield was doing went without a lot of gossip.
Which may be one of the reasons Ronna not-Romney McDaniel was in the loop as she was MIGOP chair 2015-2017, would have been connected to a network intra-party. John Haggard, a fake elector, was from Charlevoix County; it’s less populated than its neighbor Emmett County. Folks in Charlevoix County would have been served through the same Petoskey airport Chatfield used.
Everything I have read published about him suggests he imagined himself a big fish from a small pond, and continued thereafter to believe himself to be a golden boy who was untouchable. It seems inconceivable that his behaviour had not attracted gossip both in his hometown and in what I imagine to be the febrile political world of the State Capitol. But of course he claims the investigation and charges to be a political hit job.
There seems to be a lot of it about. (/s)
Also another fine graduate of Liberty U!
“He was littering compromat all over the place it seems”.
And Donald Trump had one of the best compromat hunters working for him in the White House in Mike Roman. His Koch work has him highly trained to spot even the well hidden secrets.
My own speculation is the Trump political organization has some compromat on most GOPpers. Why else would so many self immolate for him?
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/11/trump-oppo-researcher-roman-403138
But one thing it the additional ???
Just take the superfluous “it” out, and the para reads fine.
Also, questions like this, it’ll help everybody if you give the paragraph number. Just sayin’.
Very interesting. Potentially this single piece of evidence could prove Trump was guilty of all 3 conspiracies, since the attempt to throw out valid votes would certainly be strong evidence of “corrupt intent” in the fraudulent electors scheme under 1512(c)(2). Clearly this is conspiracy to deprive the citizens of Michigan of their civil rights to vote and and have their vote counted, and thus also conspiracy against the US.
That would only leave the stand alone obstruction charge as potentially being vulnerable to dismissal without the “official actions” evidence. Which is irrelevant from a sentencing point of view.
Also, is McDaniel’s evidence from a FBI 302, or is this GJ testimony? I really really hope it is the latter. By swearing under oath that she told Trump she could not be on such a call because it might be construed as “lobbying”, that is a powerful argument that the call with the MI legislators could not possibly be official presidential business, and that the catch all “Take care” defense doesn’t apply.
That puts it together for me in a way that wasn’t going to happen without reading your comment. Thank you.
1. More of a “I don’t want to see Paulie here no more.” type statement where the ask is clear and intentional but still has some plausible deniability.
2. That follow-ups would remove even that veneer of deniability fits with Hanlon’s Razor: Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. And with Guiliani’s MO generally.
3. A guy already committing embezzlement would have every reason to ask for and to save “clarifying” emails and texts from potential co-conspirators.
I distinctly remember their visit to the White House being reported on MSNBC, because it was so unusual in the moment.
My anxiety now is that we are all living on the hope that the bad guys are as stupid this time around as they were last time. At some point the bad guys are going to learn from previous mistakes, or there will be less stupid bad guys.
I hope we are sufficiently anticipating either possibility.
Yes. It’s been my worry, too, that they’d look at 2020 as a proof-of-concept and acquire a more adept team this time with a different, more effective approach. They taught themselves new concepts by way of the pandemic; while fulminating and spreading disinfo about a lab leak, they learned about gain-of-function. Did they gain function, too, and we don’t see it as we should for that reason?
Clever, Rayne, touche. Much as tumor cells adapt to changing environmental conditions and chemotherapy, their understanding of how our government work is also constantly mutating. What keeps me up at night is that they’re sharing all these plans with smarter people who work for transnational criminal elements aligned with Putin or Xi, and it’s those folks that are finding the weaknesses in the armor.
Marcy, there’s a TYPO in the text where you first mention the WH meeting,
Shirkey and Chatfield met with TRUMP on November 20, 2020…[not December].
TY!
ew: This passage is all sourced to an entirely sealed section [link] of Appendix III, but the type of evidence included there is somewhat obvious.
That SEALED section is 16 pages. The very next page [I don’t know what paper this is] [WILX?]:
[GA 1190-1192] Article: Mich. GOP leaders say Biden won state, encourage public to support democracy Shirkey and Chatfield’s statements are included below; 12/14/20 12:55 PM EST
This might be the source:
http://www.wilx.com/2020/12/14/mich-gop-leaders-admit-biden-won-state-encourage-public-to-support-democracy/
Thanks for the link. That’s from one of the state’s largest broadcasters, from their Lansing station.
WILX is owned by Gray Television, helmed by a GOP donor who runs left of his party in many ways.
Thanks, crankyOldGuy, and for that context, Rayne, and for looking further, Steve.
The embedded link in first line of article referencing violence
leads to:
GOP Rep. Gary Eisen clarifies controversial statements
When pressed during a radio interview he would not rule out political violence
https://www.wilx.com/2020/12/14/gop-rep-gary-eisen-hints-at-electoral-college-disruption-michigan-house-reacts-quickly/
Which adds some context not otherwise available perhaps
https://www.wphm.net/episode/december-14-rep-gary-eisen/
The radio interview of Gary Eisen is here.
He was planning an event which he refused to specify properly, “which will be read about tomorrow”
And mentioned violence a couple of times in a rather garbled way.
And specifically asked if he can assure people there won’t be violence he said “No”
OT, reporting from Weimar, Germany, a beautiful small city, birthplace of the Bauhaus movement, home to Goethe and Schiller, and the seat of Germany’s first republic. It is known as “Kulturstadt Weimar”, the city of culture.
The Hitler-friendly comments of Trump that have been reported in the last days, communicated to John Kelly, and more, appear just as we are on a brief visit to Weimar. We visited the Bauhaus museum today. I learned that Frick, the education minister in Thuringia, the state in which Weimar lies, in 1930 – 3 years before Hitler’s appointment as a minority-elected chancellor in 1933 – ordered the removal of paintings by Klee and others from the Weimar museums. He forbade the book “All Quiet on the Western Front” from schools in Thuringia the same year. The film of that novel was also forbidden. A few years earlier, Frick undertook measures that made life for the Bauhaus students and faculty so difficult that they began to leave. All this years before Hitler took power.
Thuringia recently voted for state parliament. The AfD – the extreme-right party – won the largest number of seats in the Thuringian parliament. Although not able to form a government, because no other party will join with them, it is the first time since WWII that an extreme right party has come in first place in any state election in Germany.
Thuringia in the 1920’s implemented Nazi measures long before the Nazi’s had power nationally. For the Nazi’s of Thuringia, Bauhaus was “woke.” Today in the US, red states are implementing the modern US-contexted equivalent, before Trump regains power.
Nobody I know outside of Thuringia believes that the AfD will become the first party in Germany. The people I meet in Thuringia today, when I ask them, “what is it about Thuringia that created Frick in the 1920’s and gives the AfD such power in the 2020’s” answer by saying: it is happening all over, not just here.
If Trump wins, it will be a devastating blow to all democracy, the world over. His fascist utterances seem to be now, not as before, taken seriously.
People still calling Trump adherents “stupid, duped, etc etc”.
It has taken 8 years to recognize, and accept (and barely), what Trump is. Let’s recognize what they really are. People are gobsmacked that Americans can be fascists.
Well.
Well, you can lead the metaphorical GOP horses to the water – as Kamala is now doing, with direct references – but can you get them to drink? And how many are now beginning to do it, but only in petto, well away from the pollsters?
Seems to me that Pence in particular ought to help them out, “man-up” and follow – however belatedly – in ex-CoS John Kelly’s footsteps. After all, Trump was apparently quite prepared to grab hold of power over his dead body, if need be.
Trump on WWII: “Some very fine people on both sides.”
/s
What is infuriating to me is that Harris is somehow saddled with not only running her campaign, but expected to ‘change the minds’ of fascist minded people. Those millions that are on board with Trump’s (oh, shocking!) Fascism.
Where is the Free Press? Chiding her for not talking about the fucking economy – which is on fire, and today is the fucking envy of the world!
It’s called an election, that’s what candidates always have to do.
But, yes, Harris faces new obstacles. The Trump campaign’s willingness to lie endlessly, about the large and small. A large portion of the press aids and abets his lies. The balance of the press does too little to refute it.
Oh, there are the fully-paid-up, but an awful lot of GOP voters are not “fascist minded” – it’s just they’ve been fed such a soup of distractions from Musk-MAGA and false equivalencing from the media that they think that voting for the felon Trump one more time is no more consequential than what they’ve done before. No biggie, business as usual.
That’s what’s so scary: just like much of the media, the sheer banality of the betrayal of everything they think they believe in. Unless in the next few days somebody somehow can wake them up from their sleepwalk to serfdom.
They want der Leader.
(Except for lots and lots of women, who’ve had a taste and didn’t like it)!
We fight and we win.
My wife and I came to embrace the term ‘magical homosexual’ in our work. I believe there is also the term ‘magical negro.’ You could say Harris is expected to be the ‘magical female.’ My educated opinion is that the term comes from when a member of the Other (non het, male and/or white) rises to some power and effectiveness and as the non-Others accept that Other’s abilities and rising status they do a 180 in their view- it’s not just the Other is capable and effective (more so than them) but they are ‘magical;’ they can (and should) do everything and more and with a smile. Obama is an example. And it is and will continue happening to Harris.
I am not sure a lot of younger people know what fascism is.
John Kelly outlined the classical definition. But he did more than that – he said Trump is an ignorant, impulsive man who thinks only about what is good for him. And he disparages the military. And has no loyalty to the Constitution. A person whose character makes him unfit.
He also qualified and distanced himself from his own conclusions, in part through his language and overly academic description. If he gets back the White House, Trump will not act “like” a dictator, he will be a dictator.
Marine General John F. Kelly served as a rifleman in Vietnam before going to college and becoming an officer. He racked up over forty years in the Corps. Before that, at sixteen, he hitchhiked across the country. At seventeen, he spent a year in the Merchant Marine. He knows how to speak directly and without equivocation.
Fascism is explained widely across media younger people use. Robert Reich has a year-old TikTok video which goes further and calls Trump a fascist.
It’s not that younger people don’t know, it’s that they’re deluged with propaganda intended to make facets of fascism appetizing and acceptable.
Kelly needed to be far more direct that Trump is a Nazi, restrained only by people who put him off. The next Trump White House won’t have people restraining him.
Kelly interview in 9 segments begins: https://mstdn.social/@[email protected]/113357499849039937
Indeed.
Man, this is frustrating lol
This isn’t about a dictionary definition of a word. Authoritarian and fascist minded people support what they like, what they want. A MAGA loyalist doesn’t need a word – they support and are on fully on board with the nuts and bolts of fascism, authoritarianism, period. They aren’t “duped” – they are down for all of Trump’s fascist dream. It appeals to them. Why do people sidestep this? It’s as if they can’t believe Americans can be fascists.
Kelly too – if he were not in denial himself, he’d call Trump out for the neo-nazi that he is.
I agree with the comments here that Kelly, who is not a hair on fire sort of a guy, so expresses himself with military understatement needs a bit of interpretation to fully convey his meaning.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2024/10/21/donald-j-trump-cosplayer/#comment-1075413
re upping a comment from another thread which has a link to interview between Tim Miller and Jeffery Goldberg who is a Kelly whisperer: the substance of the comment is Goldberg own comments on what he believes Kelly to really mean viz Trump scares him shitless. I suggest listening/ watching that podcast.
Subsequently in another broadcast with J V Last, S Longwell and Miller—discussing the Goldberg interview, and Kelly’s recorded remarks— they are advocating that Kelly, Milley and Matiss do a press conference and take questions so the full impact of their concerns can be adequately seen and heard, as they look people in they eye.
WW II was lost on the eastern front. The Russians defeated the German Generals. How do we process that into who Trump is and who he respects?
And there was Romel. One of the bomb conspirators. Trump knows shit about history. Not that it is news to us.
Thuringia was also a hotbed of the “German Christian” movement – a largely Protestant group that embraced a German Christian nationalism that tried to erase the Jewish roots of Christianity and crafted a bizarre theological rationale for the superiority of Aryan Germans. While there were various earlier movements and groups, it was in 1928 (again, before Hitler rose to power) that the German Christian Church Movement was founded — in Thuringia.
In 1939, the German Christians founded an academic affiliate to give a patina of respectability to their actions, and to influence more traditional academic organizations as well as support the Nazis politially: “The Institute for the Study and Elimination of Jewish Influence on German Church Life.” Like the German Christian movement, it too was founded in Thuringia.
What American evangelical Christian Nationalists are to the US, the German Christians were to Hitler’s Germany. It’s all about the power, not the Christian faith.
Those German Christians eventually found out that Hitler’s commitment to Christianity was only in service to his politics, just as Trump’s glib utterances and bible waving have been.
Here is a link to one of Alec Ryrie’s Gresham College Lectures from March 2017 which is titled Two Kingdoms in the Third Reich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEdnwpo28NM
The notes to this lecture include the following statement:
“German Protestants of the 1920s and 1930s shared many Nazi assumptions and voted disproportionately for the Nazi party, partly in the hope that they might use it for their own ends. One result was the German Christian movement, which tried to create a dejudaised Christianity which the Nazi state would accept with a place in the coming Aryan utopia. Many moderate, sensible Christians in Germany, even in the supposedly anti-Nazi ‘Confessing Church’, collaborated with the regime in other ways. This lecture will explore how so many Christians came to support Nazism, and how some managed to oppose it.”
There may be nothing there that is new for Peterr, but others may find it enlightening. I watched a lot of Ryrie’s lectures during Covid lockdowns and enjoyed them very much.
Grateful to all of you who commented on my post re Weimar and Frick. I learn so much from this blog, from Marcy, Rayne, Peterr and the members of the community.
I had one more item from the visit to the Bauhaus museum to share. An image of a newspaper clipping of the „Degenerate Art“ exhibition of 1937, in the local Weimar newspaper, mentioning the pieces from the Weimar museum that were removed by Frick and made it into the Degenerate Art exhibition.
The title of the article: „Juden vergiften deutsche Kultur“ translated: „Jews poison German culture“. Poison – vergiften – is a word that Trump has recently used to describe immigrants.
Oh, the parallels grow more disturbing by the day.
Every time I hear Trump, his minions, and his followers talk about “retribution,” I can’t help but think of Kristallnacht.
Is this what they really want?
I am assuming that most just want thier specific piece of the pie that Trump offers…
…but here’s what they’d get:
https://x.com/chipfranklin/status/1848929243318632452
P.S. Please don’t construe this link as indication that I read X. I got this link from Heather “Digby” Parton.
Rats scurrying, as rats do.
The miserable conclusion is that Trump will only be found as guilty as the SCOTUS allows him to be.
Control of the courts is a critical first step in the destruction of a democracy.
Frick was a diehard Nazi, and a conservative nationalist long before. From Wikipedia:
“In 1929, as the price for joining the coalition government of the Land (state) of Thuringia, the NSDAP received the state ministries of the Interior and Education. On 23 January 1930, Frick was appointed to these ministries, becoming the first Nazi to hold a ministerial-level post at any level in Germany (though he remained a member of the Reichstag). Frick used his position to dismiss Communist and Social Democratic officials and replace them with Nazi Party members, so Thuringia’s federal subsidies were temporarily suspended by Reich Minister Carl Severing. Frick also appointed the eugenicist Hans F. K. Günther as a professor of social anthropology at the University of Jena, banned several newspapers, and banned pacifist drama and anti-war films such as All Quiet on the Western Front. He was removed from office by a Social Democratic motion of no confidence in the Thuringian Landtag parliament on 1 April 1931.”
He was convicted as a war criminal and executed in October 1946.
Frick was personally introduced to Hitler by the Chief of Munich Police in the earliest days of the Nazi Party, ie well before the Putsch 9 Nov 1923.Frick and his boss helped Hitler and the NASDP in various ways, and both participated in the Putsch , and then sought to interfere with the subsequent investigation of it by the Bavarian State Police. Frick was tried for High Treason for his part and got a suspended prison sentence
He was later in March 1934 awarded the Blood Order medal for his participation in the Putsch and being part of the early Nazi party or one of its formations.
In 1924 was elected a member of the German Reichstag parliament in the federal election of May 1924. He had been nominated by the National Socialist Freedom Movement, an electoral list of the far-right German Völkisch Freedom Party and the banned Nazi Party. On September 1, 1925, Frick joined the re-established NSDAP.
On 30/Jan/40 Frick was one of the first inductees to the NSDAP long service medal 1st class ostensibly for 25 years service, but the years between Feb 1925 to Jan 1933 counted double. Which implies he was regarded as being part of a Nazi party formation from at least early 1923.
From: entries in Wiki re Frick, Blood Order, NSDAP long device medal, and auction site which sold the long service medal’s award certificate accompanying
“Frick was tried for High Treason for his part and got a suspended prison sentence.”
Based on the Ball of Thread, it appears the American Jurisprudence system is rhyming with the Weimar Republic in word and deed. Barbara Manthe has done some seemingly excellent work on the subject area.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/terror-from-far-right-in-weimar-republic/
12/3/20 GIULIANI and EASTMAN false advocacy at GEORGIA hearing
12/4/20 GIULIANI to CHATFIELD [message]: “Looks like Georgia may well hold some factual hearings and change the certification under ArtII sec 1 cl 2 of the Constitution. As [EASTMAN] explained they don’t just have the right to do it but the obligation…Help me get this done in Michigan.”168
12/7/20 GIULIANI to SHIRKEY [ATTEMPTED message]: “So I need you to pass a joint resolution from the Michigan legislature that states that, * the election is in dispute, * there’s an ongoing investigation by the Legislature, and * the Electors sent by Governor Whitmer are not the official Electors of the State of Michigan and do not fall within the Safe Harbor deadline of Dec 8 under Michigan law.”169
^^^ Mike ROMAN was involved and P41** assisted in drafting GIULIANI’s 12/7/20 message to SHIRKEY.170
** P41 [MAYBE] = Scott GRAGSON NV operative assisting in MI
[see some lists, here: https://www.emptywheel.net/2024/10/02/jack-smiths-immunity-argument/ ]
ALSO on 12/7/20: William Ockham [see discussion]:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/06/06/quoting-enrique-tarrio-invoking-the-winter-palace-doj-charges-the-proud-boys-with-sedition/#comment-939977
I’m afraid I can’t look now but it would be interesting to see if either Shirkey or Chatfield attempted to submit a joint resolution as requested.
https://libguides.law.umich.edu/c.php?g=38110&p=242696
Should insert the following into above #J6TL:
12/5/20 TRUMP-PENCE [phone] [From Pence book] [highlighted at GA 1019:
On a previous thread Rayne suggested that [P41] is Meshawn Maddock. I think there are several good reasons for believing that might be the case. she was the leading light of Michigan false electors. As well as having a senior role in the Michigan GOP she was also a prime mover in Women for Trump. And married to Matt Maddock.
In particular a radio interview she gave on 16 December 2020 she referred to what she had done in speaking to lawyers in the “ last few weeks” ie since at least as far back as the beginning of December
“I’m no constitutional attorney,” Maddock said on December 16, 2020, in an interview with local radio host Steve Gruber. “I’m an elector for Donald Trump from the Michigan Republican Party. I along with the other 15 electors were guided by legal minds – attorneys for our president, some very incredible constitutional attorneys – I’ve never in my whole life appreciated legal minds and attorneys before.”
She did not name the Trump attorneys who were involved.
“I can tell you that in the last few weeks, just some incredible minds,” she added. “And from what I understand, you know, you have the federal constitutional law, and then you have state statutes, um, and they’re two different things. So, what we did, uh, along with seven other states, really send in dueling electors, and that will be there before, um, you know, a federal constitutional attorney, and it’ll be before, uh, Mike Pence and Congress to make that decision.”
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/07/politics/kfile-meshawn-maddock-fake-elector-planning-trump-attorneys
Amazing how little understanding that woman has.
Or perhaps her unconscious self was speaking out.
Rayne
It is amazing that a few short weeks later she managed to “forget” to remember the experience which seemed so extraordinary and thus vivid and indelible in that interview, yet faded to vague suspiciously quickly.
Ahhhh…Yes! Meshawn MADDOCK!
That fits in alphabetically as well. [See GA 1188 above.]
THANKS!
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/07/05/georgia-grand-jury-subpoenas-include-false-state-farm-arena-claims/#comment-946379
Please strike “
That fits in alphabetically as well.”OY! :-(
I have the audio receipts for the two recorded sets of admissions by MM
If it is at all helpful .
The Steve Gruber show Wed 16 Dec 2020
Meshawn Maddock refers to the electors slate being completed 2 days ago ie Monday 14 December 2020 so accurate, and in the recording is calling from DC, +refers to a stop the steal event she attended there “yesterday” ie Tues 15 Dec 2020
https://stevegruber.podbean.com/e/meshawn-maddock-stop-the-steal/
The second audio where she spoke at a public event was published by CNN on
Thursday Jan 20 2022
(and refers to recording having taken place at a public event the week before ie approximately Thursday 13 January 2022)
“We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked us to do that,”
Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party, said at a public event last week that was organized by the conservative group Stand Up Michigan, according to a recording obtained by CNN.
“Listen to Meshawn Maddock describe the Trump campaign’s involvement in the fake elector plot at a recent speech in Michigan
“[Matt Maddock] fought for investigations into every part of the election we could. He fought for a team of people to come and testify in front of the committee.
We fought to seat the electors. Um, the Trump campaign asked us to do that – under a lot of scrutiny for that today.
My husband has, he’s suffered for that a little bit in Lansing because it’s not very popular, but you know when you represent the whole state of Michigan and that’s what I see it now. I realize that even though you’re going to vote for somebody to be your next state representative, your next state senator, the truth is, this body of people, they represent all of us.”
+ audio recording available on the CNN page here
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/20/politics/trump-campaign-officials-rudy-giuliani-fake-electors/index.html
I haven’t been able to locate the precise date
But I am afraid Harpie, some sort of date typo has crept in to your comment re this 2nd recording
Yes, Steve, I definitely got that wrong. THANKS!
Michigan Secretary of State, Jocelyn Benson, refers to that CNN article and the included audio as “recent” in her 1/26/22 letter to the J6C.
[The link to the pdf is very long, but can be reached at this mlive article: https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/01/michigan-secretary-of-state-details-trump-campaign-efforts-to-overturn-2020-election-in-letter-to-jan-6-committee.html ]
So, we’ll figure the Meshawn MADDOCK AUDIO was taken on 1/13/22, right?
PS found the meeting
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/LMaWAkdjcPNU8tPA/
FB post
“STAND UP MICHIGAN MEETING TONIGHT!!!
Thursday, January 13th, 2022 at 6:30 pm, 211 Iron St, Negaunee, MI. Parking in back of the building on Rail St side.
We need your support!
Reply to SteveBev
October 24, 2024 at 1:11 pm
What the ever living hell…who in their right mind arranges a meeting for this in Negaunee in January?
I know where this is. Family members live less than a mile away. I can’t with this, they had to really be reaching.
Covid deniers who want to have their cake and eat it?
@Harpie
I have had further thoughts about whom [P41] might be which I feel like I should apologise for after having set the Meshawn Maddock hare running.
But perhaps Matt DePero constitutional lawyer, author of the Antrim County Dominion machine litigation , GOP activist,
Subsequent Trump endorsed candidate for Michigan AG (and criminally inclined nut job, so typical MAGA lawyer)
Michigan Antrim County 2020 Election Results Challenge
Bailey v. Antrim County
Filed: November 23, 2020 (Friday)
Meaning it was almost ready to go when Shirkey and Chatfield went to DC on 20 Nov.
Given that 23 November was the day Gov Whitmer as due to certify it pebaps it would have served Trump better if the Antrim Co case was filed in advance of the certification day, but getting legislators on side was necessary and urgent.
And continued to be
7 December was 1 day before safe harbour day 8 December
It was also per
https://www.democracydocket.com/cases/michigan-antrim-county-2020-election-results-challenge/
This day
“On Dec. 7, 2020, a trial court granted the plaintiff’s motion for a temporary restraining order and ordered that “Antrim County maintain, preserve and protect all records in its possession used to tabulate votes in Antrim County, to not turn on the Dominion tabulator in its possession and to not connect the Dominion tabulator in its possession to the internet.” The court order also allowed the plaintiff to collect forensic images of the county’s voting equipment”
It would be very natural for Roman to connect with DePerno to discuss both the litigation, the stay, the evidential consequences, the manner in which those anticipated steps could be the basis for delay in the Michigan legislature, and if so how to craft a procedural approach for legislators, to best serve their ends.
I appreciate my reasoning depends ultimately on coincidence of timing, but in a clown show timing is everything.
So might
[P41] be Matt DePERNO ???
The Harris campaign has announced a rally on the Elipse on Tuesday, Oct. 29. They have hardly made bad step this entire time, but this fills me with dread. It is far too open an area for my comfort.
The Secret Service has not covered itself with glory in the last few months. I hope this is a better move than it feels like to me.
Where did you read/hear/see this, please?
NYT October 23, 2024
https://apnews.com/article/harris-election-town-hall-pennsylvania-a92fd0dbad3cf635fb4d5c920d471967
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/planning-underway-harris-closing-argument-speech-washington-dc-rcna176874
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/us/politics/harris-speech-washington-ellipse.html
Yikes. And thanks to both of you, dannyboy and Molly.
It is very concerning to me. Too exposed.
Molly, see my comment (near the end) in the emptywheel post “When an older white catholic man admits…”
If I may add, no worries. Kamala Harris is going to break the glass ceiling. Truly patriotic American leaders don’t hide behind bullet proof glass at a rally. We’re not going there. TFG is a criminal. Not too worry. I think she is liked by those in all government services. They’re probably stoked at being treated with respect.
Yesterday, Politico had a story about what they called a “knife fight” in the Trump campaign, over the jockeying for who will be his Chief of Staff.
The fighters are Susie Wiles, Kevin McCarthy and Brooke Rollins. The story is accompanied by a scary photo of Susie Wiles, the human Cheshire Cat.
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2024/10/22/inside-the-trump-chiefstakes-00184816
Not to be outdone, ABC News is reporting that Aileen Cannon’s on the shortlist for Attorney General:
https://abc7chicago.com/politics/judge-who-tossed-trumps-docs-case-on-proposed-list-for-ag/15455862/
But it’s okay, she’s “quirky!!!!”
Well that should get her recused from Routh.
And it makes the 11 Circuits task of reassigning the case that much simpler when they reverse her on the documents case.
And when Harris wins, Cannon will be amongst those licking their wounded egos.
I had somehow missed this:
Man Charged in Attempted Trump Assassination Seeks Judge’s Recusal https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/us/politics/trump-assassination-attempt-judge.html
If the worst happens I would bet Harriet Hageman will be Secretary of the Interior.
Christina Bobb. Is she otherwise accounted for in the appendix? because this is her jam.
Her Jan 6 interview: Admits to being on the ground in Michigan (initially claims only in a legal role/not as a journalist for OAN as she was indeed still working as a journalist for OAN.) She is very vocal in expressing her overvalued ideas (approaching delusional) in regards to aspects of conspiracies she wasn’t personally involved in, ie Dominion, audits, Rudy confabulations. She states she was involved in interviews in regards to the gathering affidavits, but appears to have only summary/third-hand information in regards to specific questions on these.
She grows increasingly bored and dismissive with these questions, when a new questioner interjects, mirroring Bobb’s boredom and sets the bait: “You were there for important reasons! not this nonsense!” She perks up instantly stating “exactly. I was there to communicate with the state legislators.”
The interviewers don’t ask about state legislators specifically until later, but when they do….she dissembles…obviously and poorly. She admits to interviewing specific legislators but now she “can’t remember” if it was in her capacity as an OAN journalist or in her legal capacity. Then claims work product privilege when asked for any for any details or specifics. It really is breathtaking. I’m still reviewing the transcript (181 pages) but I think there are answers here. She expresses great interest and knowledge of the TCF incident, but then immediately claims “it wasn’t my role” and changes the subject…..multiple times.
There is a distinct lack of “subtle” here with rapidly shifting emotions and the overly-animated/theatrical responses may be baseline here. These are traits that are likely advantageous (if mildly expressed) for a career as a TV personality.
Pg 100-101
Q What about Lee Chatfield or Mike Shirkey, I understand that they had contact with the President and maybe Rudy Giuliani as well?
A Right. Definitely not Shirkey. Was Lee Chatfield the Speaker of the House at the time?
Q I will represent to you that he was. Yes.
A Okay. I may have talked to Lee Chatfield.
Q All right. Tell us what you remember about that.
A Not much. I remember talking more to his staff. I couldn’t remember the name of who was the speaker at the time. It just, like, it was all totally logistic stuff. It wasn’t anything substantive.
Q Were you ever on the phone with Rudy when he spoke with any members of state legislatures?
A Well, at that point I would think that that would be attorney work product, wouldn’t it?
Hmmm… that is interesting. Considering that the documents case was indicted first… and she had some real criminal culpability there, yet ultimately wasn’t charged, that does raise some questions. Could she have been cooperating with the SC office (especially since she knew she was being hung out to dry by Trump in the documents case?) If you cooperate in one place, the Feds make you cooperate about everything criminal that you know…
The heat death of the universe will occur before she cooperates. Being “hung out to dry” is not a barrier in her case. Placing one’s self at risk or in danger is intentional here. To endure the resulting pain and suffering, in the hope of some greater good, is the goal.
She was tasked. Any obstacle or opposition to achieving the goal was only additional evidence of it’s/her righteous purpose. She was legal for SAVE AMERICA when she signed the declaration at Mar-a-Lago, she then shifted 2-3 times to other PACS in quick succession with new additional income in the form of “consulting fee’s” totaling ~30-40k, prior to being promoted to Mcdaniel’s role. She’s been combating her discovery obligations in cases, arguing she can’t comply because of her other cases.
In a somewhat perverse manner, she is likely the single most loyal individual in the inner circle. She and Trump are the only two who will chose conflagration over cooperation.
Americans at Trump rallies, or just people online, sporting “Mass Deportations Now!” signs, memes.
Take a moment to realise what the reality of that would actually be.
It is something we’ve already witnessed in history.
Then realise that every American will bear responsibility for it. Every single person will be changed by it, because you cannot witness such a thing, and turn a blind eye. It will change you.
What is the media response to Trump’s plan?
It’s “economic effect”.
Jesus wept.
OT entirely and I apologize now, will STFU. :-)
Jan – I wouldn’t apologize for this post. I’m sure it is very cathartic. We are at a surreal point in American history. Take a couple steps back and think about it – we have an ex-President of the United States, twice-impeached, convicted of 34 felonies and facing many more, campaigning AGAIN to be president and promising to arrest and deport millions of people living around us and to arrest sitting members of the House of Representives (Schiff and Pelosi) and NO ONE DOES ANYTHING TO HIM! It is completely surreal. God bless you and keep fighting the good fight.
“After you get the additional evidence (and so long as you reach the bar of proving that Rudy was Trump’s co-conspirator in this nefarious effort), you have a very specific ask to just throw out the legal votes that Rayne and I and millions of other Michiganders cast for Joe Biden in 2020.”
So you two have standing.
So,,,here’s what I think:
Smith oughta’ have you two assemble the evidence. Clearly you’ve demonstrated excellence in weaving a compelling story that’s thorough and engaging.
You could even open-source.
(I’ll add, although evident, that I am not an attorney, but appreciate good ones.)
Sometimes its hard to comprehend how the U.S. has reached a point where its like 2 weeks from a Presidential election which informed commentators consider to be a dead heat (7 swing states that could go either way, likely that 5 or 6 of them will break the same way, but impossible to predict which way) and we’re talking about how one of the two candidates likes and wants to emulate Hitler and how eerily similar his party’s antics are to 1930’s Germany. This in the supposed “land of the free, home of the brave”? I mean, What the actual fuck?
Something that was explained to me as a young child, and I took it to heart: The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.
I understand your point, that Nazism is unacceptable at all, but references which appear to encourage or solicit violence are off limits here.
Signed,
Your friendly neighborhood moderator
Apologies, I did not mean to encourage violence at all. The lesson I internalized as a child was simply that “Nazis are bad, full stop.”
The ideology of the Nazis was perverted and evil. My grandparents’ generation went to war en-masse to stop it from conquering the world. They fought and died to protect our freedom, and we owe a deep obligation to them to take care of our civil institutions and preserve that freedom.
It seems to me that a large number of Americans don’t truly realize how dire things could get, if they elect a wannabe-dictator whose party wants to disassemble the institutions of the state that have protected them all their lives: rule of law, independent judiciary, non-politicized civil service, etc. The next two weeks (and indeed the next few months) are going to be stressful.
“informed commentators consider to be a dead heat (7 swing states that could go either way, likely that 5 or 6 of them will break the same way, but impossible to predict which way)”
Consider this…
THAT’S ALL F’N BS!
You have to consider that those “informed commentators” get “informed” by other “commentators”.
I worked for 30 years, in the heart of information, where real money was made on information.
And the first question that each decision maker asked was : “Is this GOOD INFORMATION”?
I also have opinions on how the race became even close, which I will comment on (but don’t want to muddy up this point, because it is important to helping clear up what APPEARS to be going on.