Trump Pardoned Unindicted Co-Conspirator Steve Bannon for Defrauding Trump’s Supporters
On December 13, [Chesebro] sent [Rudy] a memorandum that envisioned a scenario in which Pence would use the fraudulent slates as a pretext to claim that there were dueling slates of electors from the targeted states and negotiate a solution to defeat Biden.312 On the same day, the defendant resumed almost daily direct contact with [Bannon,] who maintained a podcast that disseminated the defendant’s false fraud claims.313 On December 14, [Bannon’s] podcast focused on spreading lies about the defendant’s fraudulent electors—including the false claim that their votes were merely a contingency in the event the defendant won legal challenges in the targeted states.314 [my emphasis]
Let me make something explicit to serve as background for a post on what fuckery we might expect in the next month or so.
- October 31: “He’s gonna declare himself a winner.” J6C (Originally sourced to MoJo)
- November 13: “Trump just fired.”
- December 13: Bannon resumes daily contact.
- December 14: Alternate electors. J6C
- January 2: “The Vice President’s role is not “ministerial.” J6C
- January 2: Trump wanted Pence briefed by Eastman immediately.
- January 4: Pre-Pence Willard Hotel meeting, from which Rudy calls Trump.
- January 4: Post-Pence Willard Hotel meeting.
- January 5: “Fuck his lawyer.”
- January 5: Call with Trump before “All hell is going to break loose.” J6C
Between the period on October 31, 2020, when Steve Bannon was explaining that Trump would declare victory regardless if he won, and the period, starting on December 13, when Bannon started planning events that would lead to “All Hell [Breaking] Loose” on January 6, alleged co-conspirator Bannon had less contact with Trump for a period, then resumed “almost daily direct contact” with him. In that period, Bannon was trying to figure out how to get out of his prosecution for cheating Trump supporters in the Build the Wall scheme (here’s the RECAP docket).
He was arrested on August 20 on Guo Wengui’s yacht (a yacht allegedly acquired through Guo’s separate conspiracy to cheat his supporters, a fraud in which Bannon was also treated as a co-conspirator). That day, Bill Burck — who had successfully gotten Bannon through slowly evolving testimony the Mueller investigation with no charges — represented him at his arraignment, as he did for an initial appearance via Zoom on August 31. Bannon spent some part of the next two months working with Rudy Giuliani, Robert Costello, and Jack Maxey, fiddling with a hard drive copied from a laptop once associated with Hunter Biden’s iCloud account. Meanwhile, Burck delayed the first status hearing in the case — originally scheduled for October 26 and rescheduled for November 9 — based on his own trial schedule.
On November 3, Donald Trump did declare victory before key swing states were counted.
On November 5, Steve Bannon called to put Anthony Fauci and Chris Wray’s heads on pikes.
STEVE BANNON (HOST): Second term kicks off with firing Wray, firing Fauci.
Now I actually want to go a step farther but I realize the president is a kind-hearted man and a good man. I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England, I’d put the heads on pikes, right, I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats. You either get with the program or you’re gone — time to stop playing games. blow it all up, put Ric Grenell today as the interim head of the FBI, that’ll light them up, right.
The day after Bannon threatened the FBI Director, on November 6, Burck asked for a second delay of the initial status hearing, because Bannon was in the process of retaining new counsel. “Mr. Bannon and Quinn Emanuel have mutually and amicably agreed that alternative counsel would be better suited to his defense strategy,” Burck explained later that month when he requested permission to drop off the case.
On November 7, Pennsylvania declared Joe Biden the victor of the state. There would be no second term in which Bannon could impale the FBI Director — at least not one in 2021.
It actually took longer for Bannon to arrange replacement counsel than Burck represented.
On December 11, Robert Costello entered his appearance as Bannon’s new lawyer. At the time, Costello was best known for the allegations from the Mueller Report seeming to offer assurances from “friends in high places” that Michael Cohen would be pardoned if he covered for Trump. But Costello’s role, as a participant as much as counsel, in the Hunter Biden laptop caper would seemingly expand the timeline of his relationship with Bannon.
Two days after Costello entered his appearance for Bannon, according to Jack Smith’s immunity filing, Bannon and Trump resumed near-daily conversations leading up to January 6.
Bannon’s actual pardon would make short work for Costello. On January 19, 2021 — less than two weeks after “All hell [broke] loose” with Bannon as an alleged co-conspirator — Trump pardoned Bannon for cheating Trump’s own supporters. But Trump made it clear with his selectivity that the pardon had nothing to do with a perceived injustice: Trump pardoned none of Bannon’s co-conspirators. His three co-conspirators remain in prison at least through next year.
Trump pardoned Bannon for cheating Trump’s own supporters. He cared more about meeting Bannon’s needs than protecting those who believe in Trump.
When tangential We Build the Wall associates Dustin Stockton and Jennfier Lawrence explained why they provided (unreliable) testimony to the January 6 Committee, they implied it arose, in part, from frustration that Bannon had gotten pardoned but they had not.
Stockton and Lawrence say they subsequently worked with Kremer to plan a rally in Washington on Nov. 14, 2020. That event featured a drive-by from Trump in the presidential motorcade. That night, there were clashes between Trump supporters and counterprotesters. Turnout among the pro-Trump contingent was high enough that Kremer was inspired to launch a nationwide “March for Trump” bus tour with Stockton and Lawrence.
They were also, they say, encouraged by a suggestion that participating in the protests challenging Trump’s election loss could win them Trump’s help with the fallout from the We Build the Wall debacle. In December 2020, as the tour rolled around the country, Stockton and Lawrence say they got a call from Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.) and his chief of staff, Thomas Van Flein. According to Stockton, Van Flein claimed he and the congressman had just met with Trump, who was considering giving them a “blanket pardon” to address the “We Build the Wall” investigation.
“We were just in the Oval Office speaking about pardons and your names came up,” Van Flein allegedly said. Van Flein did not respond to a request for comment.
Gosar suggested the bus tour was helping Stockton and Lawrence build support for a pardon from the caucus and Trump. “Keep up the good work,” Gosar said, according to Stockton. “Everybody’s seen what you’re doing.”
While Stockton says Gosar previously supported the wall project and would likely have “moved to get the pardon regardless of what was happening post-election,” the call made clear to him that the protests against the 2020 vote could help get Trump on their side. “Trump was taking interest because of the notoriety of what we were currently doing,” Stockton says.
In the end, Bannon’s short-term resolution of his criminal exposure may not have helped much,
Like his co-conspirators, he’s in prison as we speak, for contemptuously blowing off the January 6 Committee. He’ll be in Danbury prison for several more weeks. Six weeks after that, he faces state trial on the same charges of which his co-conspirators have already been found guilty.
I raise all this for two reasons.
First, John Roberts says none of this matters. The evidence that Donald Trump was using pardons as leverage to associates to help attack democracy doesn’t matter. He doesn’t want to hear any evidence of such official conduct, even if used as part of a quid pro quo.
And more obviously, as Bannon faces his state trial and gets named as an unindicted co-conspirator in Trump’s effort to “break loose all hell” on January 6, he’s in the same position he was four years ago: facing down legal consequences for his past criminal attacks on truth and rule of law.
Trump pardoned Bannon, and only Bannon, for defrauding his own supporters four years ago.
Why Bannon didn’t just appear before the committee and lie if needs be is a puzzle. Back in the day Ollie North and a long list of Reagan officials did that and it served as a sort of right of passage to rise to Conservative sainthood. Barr’s intervention on some of their behalf’s was the exclamation point. On a deep level lying to congressional committees is a fundamental rejection of Democracy. That said congressional committee hearings are essentially show business for politicians and don’t really mean a thing. In either case if lying before committee is a FU to Democracy or just a cynical show it seems silly for Bannon to choose to go to jail.
Starting in late 1975, a friend of mine served eight months in prison with Dwight Chapin in Lompoc, CA.
According to my friend, both he and Chapin found prison life relaxing with plenty of time to read, write, play guitar, chat with fellow inmates, exercise, play basketball, draw and paint.
Chapin was even paid $1,000 per month by W. Clement Stone for every month he was in Lompoc.
I doubt if Bannon’s experience in prison is much different than both my friend and Chapin’s was in Lompoc.
And I’m betting one of Trump’s billionaire supporters has been paying Bannon more than $1,000 per month for every month Bannon has been incarcerated.
Like Chapin, Bannon believes serving time in prison enhances one’s CV.
Bannon and Chapin are sickos.
Nothing for Bannon to drink, though, except pruno. That’s gotta hurt.
Bannon will be here in NYS shortly. We promise to take good care of him.
I am Thomas Cromwell in the court of the Tudors.
Steve Bannon
Thomas Cromwell was beheaded by his boss,
Cromwell, at least as he been as depicted by Hilary Mantel, is as far from Bannon as Jimmy Carter is from Donald Trump. But may he, Bannon, suffer the same fate as Cromwell.
That should read “…at least as he has been depicted…”
If Trump manages to pull out victory in the Presidential election, by the same Jacobin logic that justified the execution of Louis XVI, Trump will be crowned a fascist king who can pardon himself. The execution of Louis XVI during The Terror was justified even if some disagreed because the general will of the people was greater than any one person. Louis XVI by putting himself about the law like a king commits a crime implicitly against the general will. However, if Trump wins, the general will itself chooses the Chief Executive in an open election ratifies that his crimes don’t matter.
Trump’s many felonies are public knowledge, and they are factually devastating in their public evidence, then by enlightenment logic, the country will be pardoning the accused and choosing fascism if he wins, and he’ll rule, not by divine right, but through conformity because justice is only what wins in nihilistic capitalism.
“However, if Trump wins, the general will itself chooses the Chief Executive in an open election ratifies that his crimes don’t matter.
Trump’s many felonies are public knowledge, and they are factually devastating in their public evidence, then by enlightenment logic, the country will be pardoning the accused and choosing fascism if he wins, and he’ll rule, not by divine right, but through conformity because justice is only what wins in nihilistic capitalism.”
That if I may say so is a perversion of democracy, which might be termed “electoral fetishisation”
I take it that you were playing political devil’s advocate.
This argument however is specious:
“If Trump manages to pull out victory in the Presidential election, by the same Jacobin logic that justified the execution of Louis XVI, Trump will be crowned a fascist king who can pardon himself. The execution of Louis XVI during The Terror was justified even if some disagreed because the general will of the people was greater than any one person.”
He was convicted of treason following a trial at which he was afforded the opportunity to mount a defence, much ow which amounted to blaming his ministers/ advisors. Thus he sought to avoid command responsibility for being the commander in chief of counterrevolutionary armed forces.
He was unanimously convicted by a body constituting a court convened for the purpose of trial.
Trump’s limitations in choosing cohorts will be his undoing:
Bannon broadcasts Trumps crimes, assisting in Trump’s downfall.
Trump pardons Bannon, which results in Dustin Stockton and Jennfier Lawrence testifying.
One f-up leads to another…I’ll skip the extensive list of motley characters that Trump has surrounded himself with, each of whom contribute to his downfall, and get to the final scene…
I expect that his corrupted Secret Service are incapable of protecting him now.
So the irony is that his life and safety are being insured by President Biden!
Shakespeare couldn’t do better.
FWIW
The paragraph on Bannon in the White House press release on Trump Executive Grants of Clemency 1/20/20
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-executive-grants-clemency-012021/
Is magnificently terse yet loaded:
“ Stephen K. Bannon – President Trump granted a full pardon to Stephen Bannon. Prosecutors pursued Mr. Bannon with charges related to fraud stemming from his involvement in a political project. Mr. Bannon has been an important leader in the conservative movement and is known for his political acumen.”
Thanks for chasing that down. I had meant to, but had about a zillion tabs open and plum forgot.
it’s useful for the next post on this,
Glad to be of use
“his involvement in a political project” — well that’s extremely interesting language.
What if Bannon was running an information harvesting project, identifying persons who believed strongly enough in ‘We Build the Wall’ to send money? That information is pretty valuable.
I’d love to know the degree of correlation between sending money to Trump-aligned “projects” and participating in January 6 insurrection, for example. Is there an anticipated similar correlation between sending money to ‘We Build the Wall’ and taking action related to the border? Or to sending even more money in the future to Trump?
And not to be sneezed at $1,000,000
Per the Federal indictment:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/leaders-we-build-wall-online-fundraising-campaign-charged-defrauding-hundreds-thousands
‘KOLFAGE, BANNON, BADOLATO, and SHEA received hundreds of thousands of dollars in donor funds from We Build the Wall, which they each used in a manner inconsistent with the organization’s public representations. In particular, KOLFAGE covertly took for his personal use more than $350,000 in funds that donors had given to We Build the Wall, while BANNON, through a non-profit organization under his control (“Non-Profit-1”), received over $1 million from We Build the Wall, at least some of which BANNON used to cover hundreds of thousands of dollars in BANNON’s personal expenses. To conceal the payments to KOLFAGE from We Build the Wall, KOLFAGE, BANNON, BADOLATO, and SHEA devised a scheme to route those payments from We Build the Wall to KOLFAGE indirectly through Non-Profit-1 and a shell company under SHEA’s control, among other avenues. They did so by using fake invoices and sham “vendor” arrangements, among other ways,’
Re information harvesting
There was the whole kerfuffle re Kris Kobach, board member of the nonprofit and candidate for US Senate, apparently using WBtW donor lists to fund raise in his campaign.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kris-kobach-uses-border-wall-group-to-fund-senate-bid-likely-illegally
So that list definitely had life beyond fundraising to build a wall.
Kobach’s use is likely the least harmful application, too, and he’s been pure trouble. Kobach would have had ready access to the list as a board member, but so would Erik Prince.
Re information harvesting 2
Kolfage had a background in it and NBC reported on WBtW/WFtW as an information harvesting op
11/1/19
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/behind-viral-gofundthewall-fundraiser-rising-conservative-star-shadowy-email-harvesting-n957896
And despite the deeply dodgy scammy background set out above I am shocked to report that at the sentencing hearing:
‘Prosecutors said Kolfage took more than $350,000 and spent it on boat payments, jewelry and cosmetic surgery. He also pleaded guilty to tax charges.
“I made a promise not to personally benefit, not anyone else, and I broke that promise,” Kolfage said in court before the sentence was handed down, at times wiping his nose and sniffling. “I have been humiliated by my poor decisions.”’
https://www.reuters.com/legal/bannon-associates-be-sentenced-fraud-over-trumps-border-wall-2023-04-26/
Ah yes, the poor decisions which finally caught him out after years of scamming in the right wing grift-o-sphere.
Someday when I get a free month I’m going to read the trial record for the Guo trial (hoping that Dan Friedman finishes whatever book he’s righting to make this easier). But remember that Bannon was a close part of Guo’s similar effort. So I would expect harmonies between the two.
Please point me to Dan Friedman
[edited to preserve anonymity]
See https://www.motherjones.com/author/dan-friedman/
Yup. Which makes one wonder how Guo used data collected by ‘We Build the Wall’ if he had access through Bannon.
No chance whatsoever this could help foreign interference in elections… *smh*
ADDER: Man, I have *got* to catch up on both Bannon and Guo. I’ve clearly ignored them too long, will have to play catch up.
“So I would expect harmonies between the two.”
Criminals gotta crime : and like in any profession they keep reworking what they know, trying to hone the methods they have learned and adapt them to new opportunities.
Look forward to your dissection.
Dan Friedman book!?!?!
When?!!!!!???? What is the title?
Some other MAGAs connected to Guo:
“Guo and his companies also paid or employed other prominent MAGA figures, including Trump adviser Jason Miller, Rudy Giuliani, former White House aide Peter Navarro, Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn, Turning Point USA chief Charlie Kirk, and Trump campaign spokesperson Karoline Leavitt….”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/07/miles-guo-wengui-verdict-guilty/
“MAGA Mogul Guo Wengui Found Guilty in Massive Fraud Case”
Thanks, Rayne
“Political project” is right up there with “peaceful transfer of power”.
These MAGAs make me gag.
Pardon for asking but the context of this eludes me:
“November 13: “Trump just fired”.
What is this pertaining to, Trump lost or he fired someone?
Click on the date – the link will take you to the relevant text in the immunity filing. It’s in reference to the firing of Justin Clark, lawyer and Deputy Campaign Manager for the 2020 Trump campaign.
Thank you very much.
Makes sense now, especially since it’s been highlighted in multiple articles.
Rayne, PDF readers are a pain on a smart phone.
Eyes are bad as it is. Again thanks.
Then wait until you can get to a device with a bigger screen. We cannot be all things all the time to everyone.
Why not?
Your defending the onslaught against democracy, and are somewhat singlehandedly making real sense out of the barrage of nonsense that is being thrown at us, shouldn’t that be important?
I don’t think you realize how important you are, especially this close to the election.
We’re a tiny team with a shoestring budget. Requests for additional bells and whistles come at the expense of doing what nobody else is doing and core site operations.
Community members here are smart enough to figure out how to make do especially when there’s a proliferation of technology we don’t have the time to chase.
With that, please move back on topic.
To follow on Rayne’s comment, you might notice a little box, in the upper right hand corner of your screen, which says, “SUPPORT.”
That sounds more like YOUR problem. You want big-budget service, go to a big-budget site…and expect less that you get here.
And you can toggle out of the pdf reader to the pdf in the top right of the pdf reader
IANAL. Bannon received a pardon from trump for his federal indictment of “we build the wall” caper. New York has charged Bannon in state court for the same fraud. In Georgia, Judge McAfee dismissed a couple of charges in the RICO case claiming that the Georgia Courts lacked jurisdiction for a federal crime. Georgia is not New York, but can Bannon make the same claim and ask that the NY indictment be dismissed? If the NY state court does not dismiss the indictment can he appeal to a federal court for dismissal citing his trump pardon?
Despite how common it is here, you don’t need to preface a comment with “IANAL.”
Sure, Bannon can ask a state court judge to dismiss claims that should be tried in federal court. He could also ask a federal court to move his case to the federal system. But, if the state prosecutor has drafted their indictment well, Bannon is unlikely to prevail on either. It’s a certainty, though, that Bannon will use Trumpian means to avoid or delay his trial.
He has tried a range of things, but his main MTD was just rejected in August (in the piece linked in the post).
Chesbro took a Gorgia plea, and is available to testify at trial as a witness if he’s offered some federal liability relief too. You mention him, first paragraph. Bannon, language fits with Kevin Roberts’ past Revolution statement on Bannon’s podcast and it cements Trump and P2025. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/04/leader-of-the-pro-trump-project-2025-suggests-there-will-be-a-new-american-revolution-00166583 Also,Vance spoke weeks ago at a venue run by a Christian revolutionary wackjob author, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jd-vance-lance-wallnau-christian-nationalist_n_66f834eae4b019aae3aa0f98 — https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Chaos-Code-Shocking-Blueprint/dp/0998216429
I thought Vance Was the Christian revolutionary wackjob author
Cheseboro is a bit compromised as a witness, I believe. Didn’t facts emerge after his Georgia plea which were inconsistent with his basis of plea — all that Badger Pundit stuff IIRC?
Not versed at all in how the Feds make deals with cooperators, but full and frank admissions to everything including lies/dissembling in previous plea agreements would be a fundamental requirement IWHT.
Earlier EW posts, e.g., this, had discussed Bannon’s involvement in Cambridge Analytica, which still seems relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica
“Bannon’s stake in the company was estimated at 1 to 5 million dollars, but he divested his holdings in April 2017 as required by his role as White House Chief Strategist.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal
Much of the Facebook and CA story was unearthed by Carole Cadwalladr, who paid a heavy price:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carole_CadwalladrM
Arron Banks would have loved Roy Cohn.
Just to elaborate, Bannon was (illegally) using Cambridge Analytica to data-mine Facebook users about their political leanings in order to influence the 2016 election. See: Mindf*ck: Cambridge Analytica and the Plot to Break America, by Christopher Wylie. Also @Rayne: 12:10 pm, “What if Bannon was running an information harvesting project”: he certainly knew how to do that.
I’m wholly aware Bannon knew about data harvesting but the way the “political project” was run looked more like propaganda amplification.
Once the numbers are known — like +3 million email addresses collected — then it looks less like a propaganda op and more like data collection.
In this case a very narrow range of data, and in a way which doesn’t rely on a major social media platform which might be charged by FTC for violating privacy if it were involved (ex. Aleksandr Kogan in 2013 via Facebook).
Thank you for mentioning Carole Cadwalladr. She is truly a heroine in this story. And sadly, she continues
to pay a price.
Re comment way above by Sussex Trafalgar about prison life and, in particular, Lompoc Prison —
In the 70s I was with a smallish group that toured that prison. At the time (and maybe still), it was described as summer camp. It’s a federal, “minimum” security prison in a beautiful California location. Some of the “low risk” inmates get to live in unwalled prison buildings outside the main prison facility, with their own basketball court. I remember noticing those buildings while approaching the main facility.
I’m not an expert about prisons but I remember someone saying that federal prisons are much better places to be than state prisons.
The federal prison in Alderson WV where Martha Stewart served her sentence was known as “Camp Cupcake”. Lompoc is the men’s version of that…
They probably provide showers, an amenity of which his disheveled appearance suggests a lack of familiarity.
“With Reek less a Bannon”
And Miles to Guo before he sleeps.
FWIW, famous inmates of Lompoc include Ivan Boesky and H.R. Haldemann.
Found an LA Times article from 1990 that said Lompoc has been upgraded from minimum security “country club prison” status to medium security, e.g. no more tennis courts for the inmates to play on, inmates have to wear prison unforms instead of shorts and t-shirts etc.
The “Dog Day Afternoon” bank robber was also at Lompoc, but I think he was gone by the time I toured Lompoc in the late 1970s.
Still, I can’t imagine Bannon being passive-like towards “vacationing” at a state prison, like California’s Pelican Bay.
Well…just to keep facts straight here: the Lompoc reference was made by Sussex Trafalgar in relation to Dwight Chapin, a minor Watergate figure. Bannon is currently serving his contempt of congress sentence at Danbury (CT), at least for a few more weeks before he’s due to be released. Danbury is a minimum-security prison – whether it qualifies as a “country club prison” or not, I don’t know. Another famous inmate at Danbury was Leona Helmsley (21-month sentence in comparison to Bannon’s 4-month sentence), so it’s definitely a place where well-heeled white-collar criminals go to serve short-ish sentences.
Federal minimum security facilities or “camps” have little or no fencing. I visited a number of Federal camps, minimum and medium security prisons from the ’80’s to the 00’s, primarily interviewing white collar criminals. They were definitely more comfortable than comparable ones run by the State of Texas. The inmates wore civilian clothes. They had to be in the camp for morning roll call, evening roll call and lights out. Most of the inmates held jobs outside of the camps. Still I’d heard that they were much more spartan after the outcry when the Watergate era criminals were sentenced to “Camp Country Club” to enjoy tennis and golf.
When I was (much) younger, I served a 12-hour sentence at Smith Ranch in Marin County (California). The offense was 2 failure to appear charges for moving violations. The judge sentenced me to $250 or 12 hours in jail – I didn’t have the money and I figured I could survive 12 hours.
Smith Ranch was a minimum-security facility with high chain link fences and inmates were expected to stay within the confines. They had a common dormitory bunk area for sleeping, a library, a small communal dining area and an outdoor exercise area within the fences. Most of the inmates there were serving 6-month to 1-year sentences for offenses like assaulting a police officer.
Since I had such a short sentence, they let me drive my car from the courthouse to the facility and park outside the gates. They also let me keep all my personal stuff (wallet, keys etc.) and within 3 hours I lost $45 worth of food stamps in a series of wagers on a few ping-pong games. I was a pretty good ping-pong player but the inmate who challenged me was much better! After that, I spent the rest of my time by myself in the dining area and the library before being released past midnight to drive myself home.
Wondering how federal prison sentence locations are determined. These “characters” should serve their time in prison performing hard and unpleasant tasks/activities and sleeping in uncomfortable quarters.
Michael Cohen served time in Otisville which I believe is the only federal prison with a Kosher kitchen. As far as comfortable quarters, their beds are made by FPI, Federal Prison Industries. So, they make their own beds.
Re my above comment about having more unpleasant prison circumstances, I admit I was thinking of Bannon and friends.
Even though Bannon & Trump were not speaking regularly by phone between October 31 and December 13 as per records accessed by Jack Smith, they may have been communicating indirectly via Epshteyn and perhaps Rudy as go-betweens.
Rudy made a dozen appearances on Bannon’s podcast over that period.
Epshteyn did not appear on Bannon’s podcast until November 7. Over the next month-plus until December 13, Boris made 29 appearances on Bannon’s podcast. Their banter gave the impression that they also spoke off-line.