The Immunity Brief: How We Got Here, Where We’re Going

I want to take a step back and put the immunity briefing released yesterday in context.

On July 1, after SCOTUS released its immunity opinion on the last possible day, it remanded the case back to Judge Tanya Chutkan to assess what was immune under the newly rewritten Constitution.

As soon as she got the case back, Judge Chutkan ordered a status report for August 9 and a status hearing for August 16. But then on August 8, Jack Smith said, sorry, can we have more time? I correctly predicted then that Smith was superseding the indictment, which Smith did do on August 27 (for reasons I won’t yet explain, this filing makes me think we may see more charges after the election).

In a September 5 status hearing, prosecutors successfully persuaded Judge Chutkan to let them deal with the remand by first submitting a brief explaining how the new indictment complies with SCOTUS’ rewritten Constitution. During the hearing, Chutkan reiterated something she has said from the start: she’s not going to let the election stall this prosecution.

I understand there is an election impending, and I’ve said before and I say again that the electoral process and the timing of the election and what needs to happen before or shouldn’t happen before the election is not relevant here.

This Court is not concerned with the electoral schedule. Yes, there’s an election coming. But the sensitive time that you’re talking about, if you’re talking about the timing of legal issues and the timing of evidentiary issues in relation to when the election is, that’s not — that’s nothing I’m going to consider.

Trump’s team ignored that warning, wailing about the election in a filing that was supposed to be about discovery. They wailed again in response to Jack Smith’s request to file a 180-page brief. In her order granting Smith’s request, Chutkan again swatted back at Trump’s election wails.

In response, defense counsel reframed the problem as an “election dispute,” insisting that “it’s incredibly unfair in the sense that they’re able to put in the public record at this very sensitive time in our nation’s history.” Id. at 28–29. But Defendant’s concern with the political consequences of these proceedings does not bear on the pretrial schedule; “what needs to happen before or shouldn’t happen before the election is not relevant here.” Id. at 29.

When the prosecutors asked to file its brief in redacted form (which they had warned it would do, and which they noted complied with the protective order in the case), Judge Chutkan gave Trump a deadline of noon on Tuesday — a clear sign she didn’t want to dawdle over redaction fights. Nevertheless, in their reply, Trump’s lawyers accused Smith of “improper political considerations” again, rather than disputing any particular redaction. By choosing to offer no more than generalized complaints for more redactions (redactions that might have hidden, just as one example, how many times current Trump campaign advisor Jason Miller told Trump he had lost, lost, lost the election in 2020), Trump’s team sunk their chance to delay the redactions. I thought it might be quick, but didn’t expect it to come as soon as last night.

In her opinion ordering the motion to be unsealed, Judge Chutkan expressed increasing impatience with Trump’s claims of politicization. Trump already got his shot at a vindictive prosecution claim, Chutkan noted, which she rejected as soon as she got the case back in August.

In addition to the assertions discussed above, Defendant’s opposition brief repeatedly accuses the Government of bad-faith partisan bias. See Def.’s Opp’n at 2, 5–6. These accusations, for which Defendant provides no support, continue a pattern of defense filings focusing on political rhetoric rather than addressing the legal issues at hand. See Oversized Brief Order at 2–3 (identifying two recent instances of this pattern). Not only is that focus unresponsive and unhelpful to the court, but it is also unbefitting of experienced defense counsel and undermining of the judicial proceedings in this case. Defendant has had an opportunity to make his case that his prosecution is improperly motivated. See Def.’s Mot. to Dismiss for Selective and Vindictive Prosecution, ECF No. 116. Future filings should be directed to the issues before the court.

Best as I can tell, Chutkan issued her order around 3:30PM ET yesterday, and the Smith filing posted around 3:35PM.

At 8PM — so well after they should have read Chutkan’s order — Trump’s team requested permission to file for excess pages as well, the same 180-pages that Smith got. They also asked to get a sur-reply, the kind of request that you normally make after someone raises a new issue in a reply, albeit one she effectively invited at the status hearing last month.

But they also asked for an extension for their response until after the election, until November 21. Not only do they offer almost no excuse for the delay, aside from existing deadlines, one of which is for today and the other of which is for an attack on the Special Counsel appointment that conflicts with DC Circuit precedents. But they misrepresent the timing that has already occurred, suggesting that the time DOJ took to consult with others at DOJ and supersede the indictment was rather time they took to write the immunity brief.

[T]he Court granted the Special Counsel’s request for an additional three weeks to complete its drafting, setting a September 26, 2024, deadline.

[snip]

This resembles the 3-week extension the Court previously provided the Special Counsel, Aug. 9, 2024, Minute Order, which allowed the Special Counsel to work on its initial brief before the September status conference. In total, the requested extension would provide President Trump 8 weeks to file his Response, which approximates the 6 weeks the Court granted the Special Counsel (including a 3-week extension before the status conference, and an additional 3 weeks thereafter to finalize its brief and exhibits).

Trump’s lawyers offer no justification for the extension, at all, that arises from their own time constraints (for example, the Jewish high holy days, which have a habit of messing with many a criminal docket, or their other caseload). They simply want more time because, they falsely claim, Jack Smith got more time.

Jack Smith wrote a 180-page filing in three weeks.

And Judge Chutkan already knows that Trump’s team can work quickly. At the status hearing on September 5, when John Lauro similarly tried to stall, Thomas Windom pointed out that in July, Trump’s attorneys wrote a 52-page attack on the New York State hush payment case in nine days.

I want to point out just as a data point for your Honor, on July 10th of this year, the Defendant, in his New York State criminal case, the Defendant and two of the attorneys sitting at this table filed a 52-page motion to vacate his state criminal conviction on the grounds of a Supreme Court opinion that came out nine days before. Fifty-two pages covering an entire trial record in nine days.

The defense can move comprehensively, quickly and well. So can we. And the Court should consider that in setting its schedule. The final piece, your Honor —

THE COURT: Congratulations, Mr. Blanche.

That’s in the court record now: At a pace of 52 pages in nine days, Trump’s team should be able to file their 180 pages in a month.

But a month is longer than their current deadline, which is three weeks. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Chutkan did give them some relief. Even if she gives them one week, it’d bump right up against election day, which is transparently the point.

It is likely that Trump will not have to explain himself until after voters have already weighed in.

Back on August 31, I noted that Trump really didn’t want to have to justify almost getting Mike Pence killed on January 6.

In 2016, Donald Trump bragged, “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters, OK?”

This election, Trump wants to hide from voters details of how he almost killed his Vice President, Mike Pence, and his claim that doing so was an official act protected by presidential immunity.

That’s the primary thing you need to know about the joint status report presented to Judge Tanya Chutkan in Trump’s January prosecution last night.

[snip]

There are a bunch of legal details in this status report. But given the near certainty that if Trump wins, the entire prosecution will go away, the only one that really matters is that, this election, Trump isn’t so sure that he would lose no votes if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue — or if voters learned why and how he almost had his Vice President assassinated in the US Capitol — as he was in 2016.

Trump doesn’t want to tell voters he thinks that as President, he could have Mike Pence shot on the Senate floor — shot as punishment because his Vice President refused an illegal order to steal an election — and be immune from any consequences for doing so.

But there must be more than that. After all, the allegation is out there, along with the new revelation that after Trump sent the tweet targeting Pence at 2:24PM, someone (probably Nick Luna) rushed into Trump’s dining room and told him Pence had been moved to a secure location. “So what?” Trump said as his Vice President was hearing chants of “hang Mike Pence” from Trump’s rioters.

Trump wants to boot this past not just the election, but also the aftermath.

Perhaps Trump just wants to leave open the possibility of never responding. If he wins, Judge Chutkan would have very few tools to enforce her deadlines, even in the two months before Trump was inaugurated.

Or perhaps Trump doesn’t want to address a coup strategy that he plans to reuse?

Update: I mean, how familiar does all this feel, citing how Trump laid the groundwork for his coup attempt?

  • In an interview on July 19, 2020, when asked repeatedly if he would accept the results of the election, the defendant said he would “have to see” and “it depends.”5
  • On July 30, despite having voted by mail himself earlier that year, the defendant suggested that widespread mail-in voting provided cause for delaying the election, tweeting, “With Universal Mail-In Voting (not Absentee Voting, which is good), 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history. It will be a great embarrassment to the USA. Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???”6
  • In an interview on August 2, the defendant claimed, without any basis, that “[t]here is no way you can go through a mail-in vote without massive cheating.”7
  • At a campaign event in Wisconsin on August 17, the defendant told his supporters, “[t]he only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged, remember that. It’s the only way we’re going to lose this election, so we have to be very careful.”8
  • In his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention on August 24, the defendant said that “[t]he only way they can take this election away from us is if this is a rigged election.”9
  • On October 27, during remarks regarding his campaign, the defendant said, “[i]t would be very, very proper and very nice if a winner were declared on November 3rd, instead of counting ballots for two weeks, which is totally inappropriate, and I don’t believe that that’s by our laws. I don’t believe that. So we’ll see what happens.”10 The defendant said this despite—or perhaps because—his private advisors had informed him that it was unlikely that the winner of the election would be declared on November 3.

Update: As I suspected she might, Judge Chutkan gave Trump more time — just enough to get beyond the election. But not all the time he requested.

MINUTE ORDER as to DONALD J. TRUMP: Defendant’s [253] “Motion to Extend Page Limits and Time to Respond to Government’s Motion for Immunity Determinations and for Leave to File a Sur-Reply” is hereby GRANTED in part and DENIED in part. The court’s [233] Order is MODIFIED as follows: Defendant’s combined Response and Renewed Motion to Dismiss Based on Presidential Immunity is due November 7, 2024 and may include up to 180 pages; the Government’s combined Reply and Opposition is due November 21, 2024; and Defendant may file a combined Reply and Sur-Reply by December 5, 2024. Signed by Judge Tanya S. Chutkan on 10/3/2024. (zcll)

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97 replies
  1. Bay State Librul says:

    Question:

    If Trumps wins the election, can’t Biden as President with enormous powers given to him by the Supreme
    Court, do something?

    • Twaspawarednot says:

      IANAL but, No. Biden is not going to attempt anything as unscrupulous as would TFG would. The supremes (not including Dianna Ross) would declare it not official duty and the fg’s DOJ would throw him jail. That’s why the SCOTUS left it uncertain what is and what is not official duty hanging, so they can rule on it after the election.

      • Memory hole says:

        IANAL either. So I may be wrong. But as just an observer, it seems pretty obvious that the Supremes left the uncertainty to be decided by the political affiliation of the President. They couldn’t rewrite the constitution and give a Democrat that kind of power. And, iokiyar.

  2. klynn says:

    “Or perhaps Trump doesn’t want to address a coup strategy that he plans to reuse?”

    As I read through the immunity briefing yesterday, I kept asking myself if the structure had an underlying demonstration for passing the “clear and present danger” test and that Trump’s pre and post election actions and words created an imminent danger to the society and Smith was demonstrating that point while setting up his immunity response?

    Are we looking at a Brandenburg test woven into the briefing?

    IANAL

      • klynn says:

        As soon as I started asking myself that, it began to partially answer my timeline questions about Chutkan. Again, IANAL and may be interpreting items that are not there.

        But the communications and actions timeline regarding Trump laid out in the briefing, shows otherwise in my lay person’s eyes.

    • rwood0808 says:

      To “re-use” this strategy he would need a willing army of lawyers and other co-conspirators to replace the team he deployed in 2020.

      I don’t see them lining up this time around, especially after seeing what happened to the last team. These 180 pages are as much a warning to any thinking about doing so as they are to trump himself.

      IF the election is a close one, and I don’t feel it will be, Trump may issue marching orders only to find that no one is answering the call.

      • Rayne says:

        We may be making an assumption about which part of the overall strategy Team Trump may “re-use.”

        Part of the strategy was violence.

        • dannyboy says:

          I am certain that I am in the minority here (as I am in most groups) but I feel that if violence is coming, the earlier the better. I believe this growing antagonism needs to be exorcised sooner rather than later. My expectation that the number actually looking for a fight is much lower than the number of belligerent folk just acting out.

          And I believe that law enforcement will deal effectively the sooner it happens. And watch the “angry but not enough to create violence” scurry back from where they came.

          So why fear exposing the crazies now, rather than kicking this whole mess down the road without any consequences.

        • JR_in_Mass says:

          In 2020 there was a lot of anger around COVID restrictions, and a lot of fear of BLM and Antifa. Those factors, thankfully, are missing in 2024, so it would probably be harder to get big crowds of “normies” worked up to the same intensity.

          Possibly we can expect smaller actions by more determined groups, especially around polling stations near Election Day, and around statehouses in December.

        • Memory hole says:

          I agree with JR in Mass. With Biden in office this election, I think the violence is more likely to be random pre-election and maybe election day. To keep the vote down and create fear of participating and confusion. A Jan 6 type of event would be unlikely because no Biden appointees will give “stand down” orders to law enforcement.

        • SotekPrime says:

          I agree he may try violence, but I think a Jan 6th redux is going to go very differently with Biden in command of the national guard, plus a lot of the J6 legbreakers in jail. It just doesn’t seem a reasonable threat.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        Pshaw. He whistles all the time and people come running.

        I think that view severely underestimates the number of people and lawyers, including several on the Supreme Court and in the lower federal courts, who fully believe in Trump and in Project 2025.

        • klynn says:

          My point:
          He will not jump through hoops this round despite the lawyers he does have well placed. Call out to people for J6 2.0? Definitely and probably his primary strategy!

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          Why would spaghetti-at-the-wall man Trump not use whatever tools are at hand to get back into the White House, stay out of prison, and reclaim the power to exact revenge? It seems more likely he’ll use the lawyers as well as every other resource he can lay his pudgy little hands on.

    • klynn says:

      After rereading the briefing, it does look like a Brandenburg test is woven in.

      This article reinforced my conclusion:
      ” As demonstrated herein, the three critical elements—speech as advocacy, incitement, and imminence—are satisfied. In public statements and messages transmitted from his digital platform on Twitter, Trump incessantly promoted “the Big Lie” and directed his supporters to mobilize and attend the “Save America” rally. His command to “fight like hell” for his cause created a combustible cauldron of anger and desperation among loyalists which culminated at the rally and in the violent conduct and criminal action that followed.”
      https://www.crimlawpractitioner.org/post/we-fight-like-hell-applying-brandenburg-to-trump-s-speech-surrounding-the-u-s-capitol-siege

  3. Badger Robert says:

    The tweets, as mentioned in the other post, may be important.
    The Special Counsel’s brief makes the task of the exiled Republicans easier. It broadens that permission pathway for Republicans to vote against the former President and start the struggle for the remains of the Republican Party.
    Attorney Smith’s brief may also impact the potential for federal action if there is reasonably certain information that Harris/Walz won the election. Biden controls the federal government now.

  4. Spencer Dawkins says:

    (for reasons I won’t yet explain, this filing makes me think we may see more charges after the election)

    I don’t want to anticipate something you already said that you expect to explain, but I was also wondering about “more charges after the election”. I’ll be watching for your explanation, but ITSM that “more charges” could reasonably mean “more charges against Trump” and/or “more charges that cover Trump’s co-conspirators”.

    There are so many people who are indirectly involved – they talked to someone who talked to Trump, but they never talked to Trump. This looks like concentric circles, and I’m guessing that at least a couple of the concentric circles closest to Trump and his co-conspirators might involve indictable crimes.

  5. BRUCE F COLE says:

    Only slightly OT:

    During the Vance Walz debate on Tuesday, Vance responded to Walz’ comments about Trump’s tax cuts with his standard “Harris has been in charge since 2021, so why hasn’t she fixed it?” Only in that iteration he put it this way:

    “If Kamala Harris has such great plans for how to address middle class tax problems, then she ought to do them now, not when asking for a promotion, but in THE JOB THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GAVE HER THREE AND A HALF YEARS AGO.”

    LOL, maybe that’s why he paused when Walz asked him if he thought Trump won in 2020: he really does admit he lost but can’t say so unless it slips out unbidden like that.

    • Chris papageorgiou says:

      Both JD and tRump admitted that the latter lost the 2020 election.
      It’s up to the people to ascertain that as well as you did.
      Good catch.
      Thanks !!!

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      As you point out, these things happen in a larger context. A lot of irons are in the fire at one time. I think Vance makes a Freudian slip, when he sincerely describes Kamala Harris — as Vice President — being in charge of the Biden administration. I wonder how many Trump whisperers caught that.

      • bill crowder says:

        I don’t see Vance’s statement as a Freudian slip. More of an attempt to link Harris to Biden’s low numbers. He did make the same statement multiple times.

      • Rayne says:

        Walz’s response to that should have been,”Clearly you believe a woman can be elected president. Nothing should hold voters back from voting for woman in the White House.”

      • Yohei1972 says:

        Am I overthinking if I say that’s a half-clever gambit? Walz can’t just say, “She wasn’t in charge, she was the VP” without seeming to both throw Biden under the bus, and to downplay Harris’s agency and responsibility in a way that isn’t a good look for a presidential candidate making the argument that she’s been practicing for four years and is ready for the job. It requires a nuanced rebuttal that can be tough to pull off on the spot.

        • harold hecuba says:

          You’re not overthinking it, but others may be. The rebuttals mentioned above wouldn’t play well after the fact.

          Walz doesn’t have the skill to thread that needle. And not sure that Walz has it in him to be a hard-nosed, “attack dog” that was our stereotype for a VP pick. Walz genuinely seems like a good guy and I think the strategy was to let him be himself. The debate was a wash, which was a win for Dems.

      • pH unbalanced says:

        It’s not just Vance. I’ve been seeing right-wing memes for weeks asking “if Harris is going to do this thing after the election, why doesn’t she do it now?”

        It’s obvious that this was the main strategy they were planning to use against Biden, and that they’ve just done a simple copy/paste of Harris in there, even though now that attack makes *no sense whatsoever*.

        But they can’t find an angle of attack to replace it with.

    • CovariantTensor says:

      Nobody mentioned, at the debate or after, the disingenuousness of the suggestion Biden/Harris could have fixed everything by fiat in 3-1/2 years, with the GOP in control of the house and a deadlocked senate these past two years. Given the congress they had to work with, they have accomplished a hell of a lot during their term. Harris’ ability to deliver on her promises depends greatly on what kind of congress she ends up with, just as in any presidential election campaign.

  6. punaise says:

    Somebody (Cranky McCrankypants) got up on the wrong side of the blog:

    The larger, if less obvious, headline is that Smith has essentially abandoned any pretense; he’ll bend any rule, switch up on any practice — so long as he gets to chip away at Trump’s electoral prospects. At this point, there’s simply no defending Smith’s conduct on any sort of principled or institutional basis. “But we need to know this stuff before we vote!” is a nice bumper sticker, but it’s neither a response to nor an excuse for Smith’s unprincipled, norm-breaking practice. (It also overlooks the fact that the Justice Department bears responsibility for taking over two and a half years to indict in the first place.)

  7. SunZoomSpark says:

    TFG is spiraling, and we need to keep hitting him on the way down. In a previous post I suggested that a Helene focused ad focusing on Project 2025 would be powerful.

    This one from the Lincoln Project hits the mark.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjNTurVapSE

    Next one I want to see has JD talking to Putin and then leading TFG to look out the window.

    [Moderator’s note: tracking removed from URL. With the exception of gift links which include code to access content through paywalls, please remove tracking when sharing URLs in comments. /~Rayne]

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        Circling the drain is the cliche, but I suspect a physicist would note the similarities between a spiral and a whirlpool.

        • Purple Martin says:

          As a young Airman working in Cheyenne Mountain in the 1970s, we’d repeatedly run program Spiral Decay Orbit whenever we were trying to determine exactly when and where a Tracked Orbital Object was going to come down. (In the last couple of hours, every few minutes I’d get a new 30-card punched-card deck by pneumatic tube, labeled something like SPDK#9522).

          A turd circling the drain seems an excellent analogy for today’s object of such speculation.

    • Error Prone says:

      SunZoomPark: Weird link, what’s the … ?si=P-rY–wSf5ZhFsSK suffix for?

      [FYI – note the tracking code has been removed from the URL. Please return to topic, thanks. /~Rayne]

  8. Amateur Lawyer At Work says:

    I had noticed that TFG’s reply to redactions leaned hard on “But I’m important and there’s an election” without offering anything new to make Judge Chutkan reconsider. “Killed both of his parents and asked for mercy as an orphan” energy went wrong. The mistake was that Smith’s brief, once released, couldn’t be clawed back from the public with an appeal to SCOTUS.

  9. Ewan Woodsend says:

    The Melania counter fire comes at the right moment to drown any Jack Smith news. I don’t know what the strategy is there : to make Trump look more nuanced because Melania? Or just to reclaim headlines? You can’t accuse the Guardian to be in bed with Trump’s campaign though.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        It is a rich irony that Melania’s one utility is to refute, as the once and future First Lady, a key GOP position: abortion is a crime and a sin and should be banned nationally.

    • Peterr says:

      The timing is all by her choice. She and her publisher set the release date for the book, and marketing a memoir like hers right before an election strikes me as a good business decision by the publisher. That’s when interest will be at a peak.

      From Melania’s POV, and knowing what she said in it, the timing may also be a personal decision to stick a knife in Donald’s back when he is most vulnerable.

      That said, if the Access Hollywood tape didn’t do Trump in, this won’t either. Except that it will get under Donald’s skin.

      • dannyboy says:

        EVERYTHING gets under Donald’s skin. He is unable to sustain a lasting bond with a human person. Thus his affinity for sycophants, overlords, and mobs.

        • dopefish says:

          He’s also the whiniest, most petulant, thin-skinned manbaby to ever seek the office of the presidency.

          Its embarassing that America elected him once; if they do so again, their image around the world will probably never recover.

      • adventuray says:

        I’ve been thinking about this since I saw the news because I thought it was weird for her to suddenly get all outspoken about her pro choice beliefs and I see it differently. Trump knows the abortion issue is bad for him. He needs women who are tribal (i.e find it hard to vote for anyone not a Republican) but also feel like women should be in charge of their own bodies need a story to tell themselves to make it ok to vote for that misogynist SOB. This lets them tell themselves that even though he boasted about killing a woman’s right to choose, he doesn’t really mean it and/or Melania will somehow stop him from doing more damage so they can justify to themselves voting for him. Will it work? I’m scared it will but I hope it won’t.

      • not-the-dart says:

        Pete Hammond, Deadline Movie and TV columnist thought Access Hollywood tape would likely crater Trump’s campaign.

        Search for “How Andy Griffith And Elia Kazan Predicted Donald Trump’s Rise (And Fall?) Way Back in 1957’s ‘A Face in the Crowd'” Pete Hammond’s Saturday October 8, 2016, 2:05 am column.

        A Face in the Crowd 1957 Trailer HD | Andy Griffith | Patricia Neal – YouTube

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk9JMydJ66Q

        Rayne – Hopefully no error in YouTube url

        Full movie available – Internet Archive

        ps: Kudos to Melania.

  10. OldTulsaDude says:

    Am I crazy to consider that the Roberts SCOTUS is not interested in saving Donald Trump the person but is using his legal problems to engage their holy war to create a true unitary executive without restraints. My understanding is their immunity ruling sounds like a Bill Barr speech.

    • Krisy Gosney says:

      I started thinking that a few months ago. And I think things like the Chevron decision are not really to free corps from pesky regulations but to make allowable corps to fire lgbt, poc, etc and to monitor sex lives and pregnancies.

  11. Midtowngirl says:

    …(for reasons I won’t yet explain, this filing makes me think we may see more charges after the election).

    Once again, IANAL, and perhaps this is too far into the area of speculation, but is it within the realm of possibility to see a superseding indictment charging Trump and others with seditious conspiracy, (even more speculative, but based on this filing) perhaps expanding to include players like Bannon (and hopefully, Stone)?

    • JR_in_Mass says:

      I don’t have it in front of me, but I believe the filing has at least one instance of the defendant speaking directly with someone in the Willard Hotel war room.

      • harpie says:

        Yes…On 1/4/21 TRUMP spoke by phone with [see below] who were at the WILLARD.
        [And using DavidStarr’s wonderful gift!]:

        [pdf65/165] The meeting that [CC6] [EPSHTEYN] had organized so that the defendant [TRUMP] and [CC2] [EASTMAN] could enlist Pence to reject Biden’s legitimate electoral votes was scheduled late in the afternoon of January 4.353 In advance of the meeting, [CC1] [GIULIANI], [CC2] [EASTMAN], [CC6] [EPSHTEYN] and [P1] [BANNON] gathered at the Willard Hotel near the White House, and from there, [CC1] [GIULIANI] called and spoke with the defendant.[TRUMP]354

        Some of them go back to The Willard after the unsuccessful WH meeting:

        [pdf67/165] The conspirators were undeterred. Immediately after leaving the White House, [CC2][EASTMAN] gathered with [CC6][EPSHTEYN] and [P1][BANNON] back at the Willard Hotel.368 Over the days that followed, these conspirators strategized on how [CC2][EASTMAN] could influence Pence through the Vice President’s counsel, and normalized the unlawful plan by discussing it on [P1][BANNON’s] podcast.369 Meanwhile, the defendant continued to pressure Pence publicly.

        I think STONE was there on 1/4/21 also.

    • not-the-dart says:

      The ILA announced that union had reached an agreement with the USMX on wages…

      The tentative agreement is for a wage hike of around
      62%, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters. Both sides said in a statement they would return to the bargaining table to negotiate all outstanding issues.

      After it emerged the strike had ended, Joe Biden told reporters: “By the grace of God and goodwill of
      neighbors, it’s going to hold.”

      “Collective bargaining works, and it’s critical to building a stronger economy from the middle out and the bottom up”

      Kamala Harris also praised the agreement, echoing Biden’s sentiment about the power of collective bargaining.

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/03/dock-workers-ports-strike-deal

      Michael Sainato Fri 4 Oct 2024 00.53 BST

  12. SunZoomSpark says:

    The Willard Hotel is the perfect venue for MAGA and their orange leader.

    The1971 ‘Willard” movie tells the story of Willard Stiles, who is squeezed out of the company started by his deceased father. His only friends are a couple of rats, and their increasing number of friends. When his favorite rat is killed, he goes on a rampage using his rats to attack.

  13. Rayne says:

    Attention Greg Hunter – your comment will not clear for publication as there has been too much off-topic material in this thread and your comment is likely to veer discussion further away from this post on Special Counsel’s immunity brief related to Trump’s response to the 2020 presidential election.

    Republish it in the next open thread — I suggest in the thread accompanying the next Fridays with Emptywheel.post.

    Ditto to all other comments – please stay on topic. Thanks.

  14. klynn says:

    Regarding your, “Update: I mean, how familiar does all this feel, citing how Trump laid the groundwork for his coup attempt?”

    IANAL. I do not envy Chutkan as she is threading a needle and walking her Constitutionally required line in The US v D Trump. But in this case it is not just the people’s case she is hearing, there is the defense of the Constitution on a level never faced by a judge before. Add in the case is muddied by a biased misinterpretation of Presidential immunity from the Supreme Court, and she stands in a stark place in history even before the case is decided. Jack Smith knows this and honestly has to speak to defending not just The People but the Constitution and limits of Presidential immunity. So I come back to how Smith is also showing us a Brandenburg test in the briefing. Rereading a blog post linked below, continues to help me see Smith has laid out a clear and present danger in the briefing as an undercurrent argument against ultimate, unchecked Presidential immunity and has built it in as an added element of defense for The People.

    “As the Supreme Court acknowledged in Watts, political speech is raw, rowdy, belligerent, in your face. So long as it remains speech, it enjoys First Amendment protection. But once  accompanied by lawless action, it’s no longer protected. And in any case, freedom to speak doesn’t protect speakers from the consequences of their speech. When Trump’s words produced immediate, lawless action, when his words were directly followed by rampage, unlawful entry, property damage, physical injury, and death, there is no way to give those words First Amendment cover.”

    And I’ll add, not just “no way to give 1st Amendment cover,” but also no way to Presidential immunity – Brandenburg test IS the limit to Presidential immunuty. Trump’s actions were (and continue to be) a clear and present danger.

    https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/502281961

  15. bawiggans says:

    “… it remanded the case back to Judge Tanya Chutkan to assess what was immune under the newly rewritten Constitution.”

    Every day the sun rises and sets on the perpetual constitutional convention that is our current Supreme Court.

    It is true that the law was never going to save us, but the law expresses the underlying values of a society and provides for their enforcement beyond the penumbra of unregulated social intercourse. When the one thing the highest court makes clear is that it finds rampant error in our accumulated understanding of constitutional law that it has embarked upon rooting out, it destroys any reasonably predictive way of sensing and acting upon what is legal and what is not. This invites chaos and all that goes with it. What usually follows that is tyranny.

    I believe this is Clarence Thomas’s revenge on a society he despises, and he has gradually enlisted unwitting allies to his project who believe the unity of their bloc is in furtherance of their various right-wing hobby horses. Quiet, taciturn, laconic Clarence Thomas, perennially underestimated as a strategist if not as a legal mind, was always a timebomb with an exceptionally long fuse. This is his moment.

    • Memory hole says:

      There was the quote from Thomas about when he was appointed to the Supreme Court. Something along the lines of “the liberals made my life miserable for 43 years. And I’m going to make their lives miserable for 43 years”.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        Clarence Thomas seems to have little self-knowledge, but a lot of self-hate. His bio suggests that he, not the liberals, is the one who made himself miserable all these years. But he takes sustenance where he can.

        He seems to imagine that he was the only bright young man from the wrong side of the tracks, who has had to wrestle with race and social discrimination. Or that he was the only one who didn’t win the birth lottery, by being born to wealthy parents on the social register. Get in line, bub.

        Despite graduating from Yale LS in the mid-1970s, top firms didn’t grovel at his feet. After a couple of years in state govt, he had the same disappointment in a large corporate law dept. So, he followed his mentor, now Sen. Danforth, to DC.

        As one of very few Black Republicans, the Reagan administration sought him out and quickly moved him up the ranks. As with his admission to Yale, he understood those promotions to be due because of his race. Were he to include his then youth and hard right politics, he might be correct. But he grabbed the brass rings offered to him in quick succession.

        With barely fifteen years’ experience, and none as a judge, Reagan put him on the DC Circuit, for which he was woefully unqualified. A year later, GHW Bush put him on the Supreme Court, a ridiculous appointment, and it’s turned out to be exactly that. His ascent makes Brett Kavanaugh look like Methuselah.

        His most consistent refrain is, “I deserve more. If it get it, I’ll take it. Now, how do you like this quarter million dollar luxury RV? Didn’t cost me a dime.” Perhaps not, but his decisions have cost millions of people much more.

        • gmokegmoke says:

          from The Catalans by Patrick O’Brian (NY: WW Norton, 1953 ISBN 0-393-05110-2):
          “Love your neighbor as yourself is not enough, nothing like enough, if you have a deep, well-founded dislike of yourself.”

          Been thinking about this since I read it. Seems to me to be the loophole in the Golden Rule and bids fair to be the reason our world is as screwed up as it is.

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