2024 Presidential Election: The Vice Presidential Debate
[NB: check the byline, thanks. /~Rayne]
CBS News network hosts the vice presidential debate this evening beginning at 9:00 p.m. ET.
There will be no muted mics. I guess CBS thinks we can trust the couch fucker not to talk over Coach Walz.
There will be no fact checking. Apparently CBS also thinks the faux hillbilly who has flip-flopped on stuff like his opinion of Trump won’t spout anything contrary to what he’s said before.
I’m hoping tonight’s moderators Norah O’Donnell and Margaret Brennan ask something juicy — like whether Walz’s 1979 International Harvester Scout sports a very-well maintained original paint job or if he’s had it repainted.
My desired topics aside, I note ever-sketchy NYT decided to attack Walz today of all days. Never mind all the racist, misogynist bullshit Vance has unloaded — the NYT is going to save democracy by insisting Walz is telling an untruth rather than misstating what happened 35 years ago when he was abroad.
Tim Walz Said He Was in Hong Kong in 1989 During Tiananmen. Not True.
Mr. Walz taught at a high school in China as part of a program sending American teachers abroad, but he did not actually travel to the country until August 1989.
By Danny Hakim and Amy Qin
Oct. 1, 2024 Updated 6:36 p.m. ET
Ugh. Like the tensions inside China weren’t high and sensed across all east Asia back then.
Couldn’t leave the NYT’s endorsement of Harris without some both-sides-ing.
~ ~ ~
This thread is dedicated to this evening’s debate. Please stay on topic, thanks.
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Thank you.
I still miss Dan Rather on the news.
Walz starts by answering the question asked.
Vance starts by talking about his fake bio, and claims Donald Trump gave the world “stability.” LOL. His last ten seconds, he says what happens in the ME is up to Israel. As Rex Tillerson said of Trump, he’s a fucking moron.
Iran v Israel
Preemptive strike on Iran
Walz bit nervous
Swiftly pivots to the unfitness and fickleness of Trump, and the calmness of Harris (doesn’t answer on preemptive strike)
Vance goes to himself
On the issue lies about circumstances Where Iran got money back
Walz correctly blames Trump for Iran being closer to nuclear capability.
Vance tries to blame Harris for not bring peace through strength
“peace through strength“…Like it was Harris who obstructed funding for military aid to Ukraine…not.
Vance sloganises but it’s empty
Walz doing quite well
Vance intentionally calls Joe Biden’s presidency “the administration of Kamala Harris.”
Clearly the Trump campaigns polling and likely voter interviews, etc, is telling them to tie Harris to Biden directly and consistently. It’s odd that Walz didn’t attack this tangentially in the debate very vigorously. I also note that Vance adopted the Harris campaign slogan of being future facing. Vance was well prepared for this debate apparently.
Vance sticks relentlessly to emotional imagery and lying about what a great job Donald Trump did. Answering the questions? Meh. His answers about climate change are manufacture more and burn more fuel in the US – it’s investing in the American economy.
Walz on Hurricane Helene: Donald Trump thinks more climate crisis change will make more beachfront property for him to invest in. We governors know that clean energy, not burning more fossil fuel, is what counts.
Climate Change
Vance on disaster
Crazy weather patterns
Let’s say carbon emissions are the cause, we have the cleanest energy program
Walz, skewers Vance on previous climate change positions in contrast to Trump “hoax” claims
Vance in response-more manufacturing in the States
Walz skewers Trump on the MAL pitch to Oil execs give me $$ and you can do what you want
Vance wants no immigration, deport them all, and build the wall. Where have I heard those priorities before. He’s lying about separating immigrant children at the border – a Trump admin. policy.
He’s consistent about saying the Kamala Harris administration. He’s lying about the Biden success in reducing fentanyl imports and overdose deaths. He implies that Harris is facilitating child and sex trafficking.
Walz, Trump built 2% of his wall and Mexico paid for none of it.
NPR did a bit about the dramatic drop in fentanyl overdose deaths just yesterday. Must be really inconvenient, that.
https://www.npr.org/2024/09/30/nx-s1-5124997/fentanyl-overdose-opioid-btmps-drug-cartel-xylazine-tranq-mexico-china
Which Walz promptly included in his reply.
Vance is good about slipping in his lying bullet points, e.g., Kamala Harris is the border czar.
He’s claiming Springfield was harmed by immigrants. Lie. It was resurrected by immigrants who moved there to take jobs no one else would do. They helped rebuild the city. Vance has no excuse. Springfield is in his own backyard.
Vance bullshit on Springfield
Walz doesn’t smack him down on it.
Vance fact checked and lies
Walz fact checks the lie
Ugh. Every time I hear “Springfield” from a GOPr’s mouth I hear “Willie Horton” all over again. Pure racist fearmongering.
Moderators let Vance bully them to keep talking about immigrants and the laws he doesn’t like. The mods should cut off Vance’s mike. They were, but too late.
I just hope his steamroller act backfires on him. Nice of him to behave exactly like the condescending pos he is, I guess.
Vance is smooth, but not good at hiding his arrogance.
Walz is playing a straight game, arguing policy, but that gives Vance the advantage, because he’s so willing to lie about Trump’s past, and what Harris has done and proposes to do. Like increase food prices 25%. He lies and says “look at the record” he just lied about. FFS.
Walz is coming over more likeable
He could have done better on the Tianemen question – if he’d started off by saying he misspoke then gave the background of his travels it would have been better and more straightforward.
Bit of a flub there, though he does have an answer which is persuasive, he didn’t deploy it to best advantage.
Yep. A major flub on Walz part.
Vance – lies about “experts” who said “ship manufacturing overseas”
They weren’t “experts” they were capitalists !!!
Glib nonsense from Vance
I suspect much of American manufacturing was antiquated and China had modern factories with near slave labor, so rather than invest in the own updating factories they vacated to China.
Yaley Vance loves to say how wrong [Democratic] elites and their experts are. Trump will unleash common sense wisdom of Donald Trump. He condescends to Walz about how tough a job he has supporting the truth about Kamala Harris. He then resorts to another pity party about his fake childhood poverty. FFS.
Walz lashes back with details about who profited from shipping mnfg and jobs overseas – private equity.
CBS brings out an irrelevant gotcha question about when he went to China in the summer of 1989. Thirty-five years ago, when he was 25. What that really says is how little bad stuff there was to find in his closet.
Vance was wrong about Donald Trump – no, he wasn’t – but blames it on the press. Oily bugger. He’s also very fond of straw man arguments. For a private equity guy, he’s pretty glib when he lies about how hard it is for American workers to get by.
Yeah, I figured they’d haul that stupid summer of 1989 out thanks to NYT. Stupid fuckers endorse a candidate while backstabbing the running mate.
I don’t even remember what I did that summer, at all. I think I went sailing a couple times on weekends; I worked every day for a transnational Fortune 500 company at the time. I do remember sensitivity about overseas politics because of the transnational nature of the business, and I recall Royal Dutch Shell thinking about the end of oil and investing in green energy then, before they reversed their thinking and doubled down on oil.
I remember, because I went to Beijing, Tianjin, and Hong Kong in August and again in October 1989. Tense and creepy. Hong Kong, in particular, was on pins and needles wondering if it would be next.
Walz did a decent job dealing with the mild discrepancy in his timeline, which strikes me as a nothing burger.
Sadly, predicting what is and is not a nothing-burger in this election cycle is not easy to do.
Why is Tim Walz not pointing out the VPs don’t set policy. JD Vance is saying “the Harris Administration” and Walz is not pushing back.
This drives me crazy every time it happens.
Glad to know that Tim Walz pushed back on Vance’s mischaracterization of the MN abortion law.
Walz has been prepped to not downplay Harris level of responsibility in the current Administration. If Vance wants to keep tying Harris to the current Administration then that’s Vance’s built-hill. Note that this is also about undercutting Biden’s own leadership at the helm, a possible attempt to needle Biden into losing it in public prior to the end of this election.
And on to abortion.
Good recitation from Walz.
Vance, I grew up in a working class family….Onto his anecdotes rather than the hard stories Walz read out. Claims to want to make it easier for families. Doesn’t say how. Just says, let the states decide. He doesn’t recognize what happens when they do. Vance is well prepped: so far criticism isn’t touching his demeanor, partly because he covers his ass by lying. How he proposes to aid women and families Trump and his party vehemently oppose. Vance ignores that.
Walz responds about different state rules on abortion. Desperate women traveling and dying, trying to get necessary medical care. Wants to restore Roe v. Wade.
Walz repeatedly saying that Vance is lying about Minnesota “post birth abortion/botched abortion” – by reference to the fact that Trump was fact checked on this in the last debate was good way of batting his nonsense away, and tagging it to Trump too.
A big mistake Dems make is when they say they want to enshrine Roe into law, they NEVER say what the law was under Roe.
I bet you a large majority of Americans have no idea what the basics of the law were, and that is why Republicans can lie about late term abortions without consequences.
It’s also why you hear voters say that Harris is “unclear” on her policy, when all along she’s said clearly and constantly that she’s in favor of reinstating Roe.
That’s a matter of opinion. Voters know the Dobbs decision overturned Roe, which in turn allowed individual states to change their laws. If abortion has been regulated by states with the approval of voters in those states, Harris could get too far out ahead of voters by saying now ahead of the election she wants universal reproductive rights thereby denying states’ ability to regulate any portion of reproductive health.
Deeper clarity would be better after the election, after the down-ticket races have been won.
It’s far more important now for Democrats to frame instead a right to privacy, which is what Roe was really based upon, and underpins other key decisions like Loving, Griswold, Obergefell, but include the urgent need for legislation on data privacy.
I’m going to be honest — I think Vance is coming across very well. If I didn’t already know a lot about him, I might think he was reasonable.
(Disclaimer: I’m listening on the radio, so I don’t know how he is coming across visually. Of course, I’m faceblind, so I wouldn’t know that even if I were watching.)
You’re missing his patented sweet-smarmy arrogance, with matching face and body language.
And you’re also missing the many “you’ve got to be kidding me” looks on Walz’s face, when Vance tells one of his many whoppers.
And you are missing:
-His mike needing to be muted,
-His talking over two women mods,
-His continued lying about Springfield, Ohio.
He could only come across well to committed, low information, non-critical thinking Maga trumpers. To anyone else he was evasive, full of diversions
and outright lies.
Not at all. Vance was clearly more poised and less-ruffled during the debate. Better prepared too I’d say.
Or to look at this another way… perhaps Pete Buttigieg creamed Walz in the mock debates in the days/hours leading up to last night? Watching Walz, I was thinking that Buttigieg would have been a stronger debating opponent against Vance.
LOL at the drive-by troll whining about Democrats and corruption.
I guess stealing classified national security documents and 34 counts of falsified business documents filed in order to lie to the public about cheating on one’s wife with an adult entertainer are not corruption.
Vance invents babies trying to survive “botch late-term abortion.” All the buzz words, none of the reality. Walz is good when he says this is about medical care and women’s choice, not the state legislature’s.
And, the break.
Go Tim Walz! As a happy, fellow Minnesotan, I find your gutter talk divisive! But in honor of your VP debate, “win” or “lose”, I will drag out the ladder before this weekend and do an extra fine job of cleaning ours. It is the least I can do to show my support and solidarity.
Thanks for bringing up gutters. I think we need to clean ours for the first time this year — after nearly 20 years the trees have grown enough to shed leaves above the eavestrough.
Thanks, Tim Walz!
I have to say, after four years, that Leaf Filter works well.
When the weeds growing in the gutters are a foot tall is when it’s time for cleaning.
Walz is a bit shaky but sincere, and Vance is a lying snake.
These eyes
Watched you bring my world to an end
This heart
Could not accept and pretend
– Creepy is he that JD.
Vance keeps saying how wonderful life would be for families just getting by in Trumpworld 2.0. It’s a lie, because both the priorities he says the GOP has and the things he says Trump would do to implement them are vehemently opposed by Trump and the Republican Party.
Walz’s response is effective and down to earth.
Vance claims to have empathy for Walz’s child, who witnessed a school shooting. Yeah, thoughts and prayers. Vance is working hard to appear human. Within the context of this artificial debate, he’s succeeding.
If this were 1935 Germany, Vance would be saying Jews, Jews, Jews instead of illegal immigrants, immigrants, immigrants.
Yes, and he did that thing with his hand so many times. In 2020 it was called the white power sign.
“…immigrants, immigrants, immigrants.”
Damn!…We’re all recent immigrants on this continent,
Save those among us who have Native American ancestors.
I think most commenters above have taken their eyes off the prize. We need to move undecideds who generally trend Republican, like simplistic solutions, and respect power. I think that, unfortunately, Governor Waltz is being taken apart, limb by limb, in the eyes of these critical yet shallow voters.
It would be good manners to say your piece without claiming that other commentators are missing [your] point.
I disagree that Vance is taking Walz apart. I agree that he needs to be more aggressive.
I agree generally.
I am not sure that Walz needs to be more aggressive.
I think his passion for finding solutions is coming across, and he seems to have a better sense of the practicability of solutions.
Vance on the other hand appears to me to deal more in concepts of a plan, rather than have any practical experience of bringing plans to fruition.
I’m sorry I hurt your or anyone else’s feelings. Although I don’t see why my attempt to redirect peoples thinking caused so many hurts.
I’m glad you have an opinion and are willing to share it.
I never asked for the Governor to be more aggressive, that’s on you.
But could you provide your understanding re. the nature of the voters we need to recruit at this time, and how it is that that this debate is converting them to our cause? A good case would likely move my opinion.
The Governor is great at converting people one on one. But this is a televised debate and while I agree with what he’s saying, and know that Vance is a conman, neither I nor you is the audience that we need to motivate.
It seems to me, by what you’ve said above and below, that you don’t seem to understand this simple point. And it’s also clear that you believe that you’re one of the important people and no one else should comment. I’m sure glad I don’t have you as a neighbor.
You keep insisting that people don’t understand your point. Perhaps they simply disagree with you, but aren’t as willing to throw ad hominem attacks around like Trump throwing paper towels.
The swing voters Harris needs are old, old-fashioned Republicans who are fundamentally decent people, chagrined by today’s coarse culture and thus profoundly uncomfortable with Trump’s conduct and rhetoric. They are likely to leave their presidential ballot blank; if Harris can cement that choice or even better, bring them around to voting for her, she wins. Walz can reach these people because he knows them and has a lot in common with them..
“I don’t see why my attempt to redirect peoples thinking caused so many hurts”
Why? Because you dropped in out of nowhere, have little cred with this community, and decided you are the arbiter of how this community must think in the middle of a highly active thread.
“I’m sure glad I don’t have you as a neighbor.”
Not helping at all. I suggest you exit this thread based on the first rule of holes.
Most of the comments in this thread are blow-by-blow observations by long-time community members, but gee, Mr. Infrequent Commenter, thanks for dropping in with your two cents.
This sort of illogical and antagonistic attack should be beneath you Rayne. Us and them, in another context that would be a key tool of dictators, fascists and racists.
I’m in no way disagreeing with what the good Governor is saying.
It should be clear to you that different audiences hear things in different ways. And the fact the Governor resonates with the EmptyWheel circle of insiders is no assurance that he resonates with certain other groups.
Anyone of the EW-us group can disagree with me. Go ahead and make the case that the Govorner’s presentation is winning the hearts and minds of the undecideds. But, so far, I haven’t read a response to that effect.
Your lament about being attacked is precious. Reminds me of a riff off an old Crocodile Dundee joke. An attack? That’s not an attack. This is an attack.
Your assertion that most undecideds are Republicans who want simplistic answers and respect power is just that – an assertion. I don’t see undecideds in nearly such simplistic terms.
I look back at the post-Dobbs “ban abortion completely” ballot measure in Kansas that went down in flames because a fair number of GOP folks (including more than a few GOP members of my churches) voted *against* the very simplistic “ban it” answer to abortion, and rejected the grab for power being pushed by the far right. Long before SNL made a skit out of OB/GYNs phoning their lawyers from the exam room, I had parishioners saying “I don’t want legislators in my doctor’s office!”
Undecideds lean toward sane over insane, and trustworthy over shifty. On both those counts, Walz wiped the floor with Vance.
Walz is winning because he is sane. My these eyes comment indicates that Vance knows he is making false arguments. Yet you claim this “in another context that would be a key tool of dictators, fascists and racists.”
JD is the tool of dictators, fascists and racists.
My tax money to fund religious pre-school…JD clearly articulates a subverted view of the 1st Amendment.
What I saw from JD Vance is someone who recognized the Walz Wisdom that reminded his inner child of some inspirational teacher that he encountered as a wee lad. He was afforded this experience due to the one of the best funded K-12 public education States in the Union; Ohio. JD looked at Walz in awe and then went onto argue that the Catholic Church should educate them all.
In every context that would be a key tool of dictators, fascists and racists. Corrupting natural human rights is JD’s aim in service to dictators, fascists and racists.
Still digging your hole with shovel fulls of condescension. It’s offensive.
Pure trolling nonsense.
People who trend Republican, like simplistic solutions, and respect power are not undecided. Your premise is bogus.
Your analysis is bogus. Because people don’t like to hear what I’m saying in no way disproves my contentions.
How many presentations by pollsters (on all sides) have explicitly called out these characteristics as being common among those labeled “undecided?”
An argument could be made that these characteristics, by definition, make the mass who are labeled “undecideds” something other than undecided. This would be silly sophistry, because: however they are labeled, they are the people the Harris Waltz campaign needs to convert in order to assure success in the election.
And remember, a narrow win is dangerous for all of us.
Keep digging.
Agree
I think most undecideds are undecided because they haven’t thought much about it, or haven’t information to decide.
You are up against a tough crowd here, as they are so decided and so armed with info that they don’t conceive of the Undecided Story.
Stop baiting the trollish.
Vance thinks them immigrants are driving up housing costs. Funny, I thought it was poor pay, exp and private equity buying up houses and rental properties. JD works for private equity.
JD wants to use federal lands – they aren’t being used for anything – and commercialize them. Ansel Adams and John Muir, please respond.
Walz skewered him on this, and Vance momentarily agreed that immigration was not a (main) driver before reverting back to saying it was. Hopefully his slipperiness on this will get the attention it deserves.
It also undercuts his Pooh-poohing of experts since he was forced to refer to unnamed “expert” economists
“Ansel Adams and John Muir, please respond.”
With tears… as in the old Iron Eyes Cody ad.
Ironically, he was Sicilian, but a legitimate, decades long advocate for the rights of Native Americans and the environment.
Yes, knew he wasn’t Native American, used to hang out with Lakotas who would joke around about that fact. Had one Hunkpapa Lakota friend whose family name was “Iron Eyes”.
He (my friend) said they got that family name, not because of a fierce “Hollywood Indian” type cast glare but because one of his great grandfathers wore iron rim glasses.
After the housing answer, it is obvious that Walz has taught Government. I wish we had more of that in public discourse.
Vance claims that unidentified family members got private medical insurance for the first time “under Donald Trump’s leadership.” Trump’s public health leadership was let the pandemic burn. Obama and Biden expanded health care coverage. Trump reduced it.
Vance is good at framing his comment, saying how good it is and how much you’ll like it, before he says it. Entertaining, but only for the poorly informed. He’s lying again about Trump and medical care. He brags that inflation was low during Trump. Has he not heard there was a global pandemic at the time?
Walz talks about the benefits to society and the economy when people get health care and get and stay healthy.
You mean the coverage Trump tried to kill, saved only by John McCain’s swing vote?
*eye roll*
Yeah, Walz finally got that and a few Jan. 6th zingers in. Vance just pivoted and said Dem’s Facebook censorship was a bigger threat than Donald. LOL.
Put a fork in Vance. He’s done on abortion rights and healthcare. And here’s the thing – Walz continues to support his President, Kamala Harris, but his record here in MN, gives much credence to his message.
Vance is worried that a Harris administration will cast aside longstanding international friendships for the sake of domestic political advantage. My, he’s good at projecting.
Tim does need more spark and more attack against Vance. Vance is not legit. Walz did get in that Trump’s version of Jan. 6th is a lie. Mike Pence was directly attacked. Denying what happened is wrong.
Vance, “it’s rich” for Dems to attack Trump as a unique threat to democracy. Trump gave up power peacefully on Jan. 20th. Yeah, JD, only after his coup failed two weeks earlier. He’s still under indictment for that, JD. And Trump has never stopped saying he won the election in 2020 and that Biden’s govt is illegitimate.
Walz to Vance: did Trump lose? Vance: I want to talk about the future. Dem censorship is a bigger threat than Donald Trump. Hahahahahaha.
Vance is smoother than Walz. It’s easy to be that way when you’re just spouting your talking points. But you’d have to be a real low information voter to buy what Vance is selling.
At any rate, I wouldn’t get too excited about this one way or the other. VP debates generally don’t move the needle much.
I wouldn’t say Vance is smoother, except in the way that Vance is making used car dealers look good.
Dear me, yes. Buy your Pintos and Vanagons from JD.
Bottom line on JD’s spiel: Who’s his running mate? Because nothing he said had anything to do with Donald Trump.
Vance wouldn’t say Trump lost
But nor did he say Trump won.
I think it is much easier to be smooth if one lacks any morals. Then you can lie at will. Normal people would have pangs of guilt about lying to everyone.
Smooth talking Vance probably comes off well to low-info voters (although they’re probably not watching the debate). Walz is holding his own on substance, albeit with some missed opportunities for specificity and syntactical hiccups. Strong on J6 and abortion. The “press” will probably say Vance won, but I see it as a draw.
Very strong on medical care and insurance, too.
“Smooth talking Vance probably comes off well to low-info voters (although they’re probably not watching the debate).”
Yes, one trait shared by many undecideds is their lack of info on hand on which to decide. My fear is that they are just now coming (late) to get their info on how to vote.
They are undecided because they just are late in deciding. That is why Trump and Vance are flamethrowing their points (immigrants, womens, jews, dying economy,…).
On Democracy Walz was really strong, coming across as perplexed, rather than angry, but staunch on the principles.
Vance’s evasiveness looked pathetic, and his body language and side eyeing the camera as Walz delivered the peroration to this section showed his untrustworthiness.
Closing arguments.
Classic Tim Walz. Upbeat, down to earth, we can do better and our politics must be better. Trump is all American carnage, and JD will be with him all the way. Harris, on the other hand, will give us options Trump will not, starting with supporting the middle class and the politics of joy.
Vance closes last. Standing there in his best Trump suit and tie. Starts with his patented, I grew up poor, schtick. Immigrants and fentanyl, both owing to Kamala Harris. He repeats his lie that Harris, as VP, is in control of Joe Biden’s govt. Emotive about the middle class and the American dream. Pretend empathy and suaveness. Doesn’t say how badly Trump’s policies worked out for average Americans last time, claims they were great, and he should get to do it again.
Yeah, the concentration on Fentanyl isn’t as good a sword as JD imagines. People don’t forget under which administration their friends and family members die from ODing (nor from psuedo-scientific nonsense?).
Bulwark take:
Vance did well Walz survived
But the biggest takeaway may be:
The media will amplify that Vance could not say Trump lost. And Walz saying Vance is here because Pence can’t be, could have been stronger, but it was adequate.
There were a number of shapeshifting moments from Vance, that required a background knowledge of Vance to realise what he was doing.
The democracy question is the VP question, which is why it will resonate.
And Trump will hate Vance’s performance, because Vance acting like he was selling Vance futures.
But Trump will love Vance’s tap dancing around J6 and who won the 2020 election.
“ Vance is here because Pence can’t be…”
Does Vance want to get himself lynched?
The Daily Beast has a take that the lack of fact-checking allowed Vance to spew a lot of lies and made this look more like a normal, “civil” VP debate than it really was:
The Real Losers of the Walz-Vance Debate: Every Voter Watching It
Admit that I didn’t watch (so you can read my Comments with that in mind).
I did have a valid excuse.
I’ve filled my allowable quota of digesting lies for the month, and it was just the first day.
I wondered how Vance such a truly heinous, odious being could get away with such mental devastation. He never stops gaslighting. The same monotonous verbiage in the same rhythm. Lies! The only thing giving it away was, as he was continually challenged by Tim’s goodness his face started scrunching up. I think that’s called imploding but what do I know? Master TFG & mini voice master? Unhinged vs smooth unhinged. I didn’t buy it.
Worked on The Street for 30 years and quickly observed that the higher up the firm, the better the liar.
It’s called “Talent” there.
JD still seems to work for private equity, and keeps honing that talent to a sharp edge.
Let’s make no mistake about it: Harris has pivoted towards supporting private equity, and big time.
Support?
From the NYT:
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you . . .
Having seen excerpts of Trump’s “interview” with K-A Conway, I am equally “shocked”.
He didn’t answer a single question properly.
Like Beasley excerpted portions of the interview broadcast on Fox Nation
https://youtu.be/GDxbgnxzHDg
Thanks for the link. It would be nice if the MSM would dissect Trump’s answers and statements like Beasley — at least once in a while.
I thought it was interesting that KA Conway and FoxNation even tried to pass this off in the way she attempted to in the “introductory” segment which was obviously recorded later.
Perhaps Trump will whine about all the “free coverage I was refused by the very evil CBS!” if Harris agreed to an interview.
CNN focus group 7 undecideds Grand Rapids
1 now decided KH based on Vance answer on J6
6 remain undecided
JD Vance said he never supported a national abortion ban. That’s a lie. He’s on tape in several fora over several years supporting a national abortion ban. He rabidly supports states that have the most severe abortion bans. He only reinforces it when he talks about “saving” babies in late term abortions. That’s not a thing.
Most of what he said about immigrants in Springfield, abortion, medical care, and supporting middle class families is an invention. Neither he, nor Trump, nor the Republican Party support what he talked about. He’s lying for effect – and affect.
Lying for effect and affect is precisely it.
Prior knowledge of Vance was required to appreciate the glib lies.
He was plainly looking to appear moderate/collegial/affable, and he succeeded.
I am not sure what Walz could or should have done. The important thing was for him to be authentically himself.
Had the team wanted a polished debater to dissect Vane, then Shapiro was the person for that job.
Walz wisely made no attempt to dissect every Vance lie. If he had it would have precluded presenting any of the many informative answers that were more important to air.
Charles P Pierce before the debate:
Actually the fairly tough mods did sneak in a bit of fact-checking.
Vance, to his credit, is quicker on the uptake than Trump. Again and again, the Presidential debate mods had to correct and fact check Trump. Vance at least figured out that his trying to talk over the mods wouldn’t work and stopped doing it after they shut off the mics and told him “No one can hear you, because we turned off your mic.”
OK, that’s a low bar, but still . . .
SF Gate:
CBS did not screw around with Walz-Vance debate questions
And Vance ended up complaining about being fact checked, which wasn’t a good moment for him.
One of us watched and one of us only listened. The watcher thought Walz won, the listener thought Vance made himself less weird.
I can’t imagine any truly undecideds who were moved in either direction.
Walz never once said anything about Project 2025 by name. I hope the “Midwestern nice” was enough to counteract the shapeshifter Vance, but I think there were missed opportunities.
I believe Walz called out Project 2025 in the context of proposed “pregnancy registries”, something Vance tried to squirm out of.
And post debate Walz was fact checked by Daniel Dale on the accuracy of what he said about Project 2025 mandating monitoring of pregnancies.
…and what was the verdict?
punaise
October 2, 2024 at 12:39 am
‘Walz falsely claims Project 2025 calls for a pregnancy registry
Gov. Tim Walz claimed that Project 2025, the Heritage Foundation think tank’s detailed right-wing blueprint for the next Republican administration, says people will have to register their pregnancies.
“Their Project 2025 is going to have a registry of pregnancies,” Walz said.
Facts First: Walz’s claim is false. Project 2025 does not propose to make people register with any federal agency when they get pregnant. And there is no indication that a Trump-Vance administration is trying to create a new government entity to monitor pregnancies.
…’
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/01/politics/fact-check-vance-walz-debate
There’s quite a long explanation of the true position of statistical monitoring of data.
There are other fact checks particularly of Vance in the article
@SteveBev
Thanks. Sounds like Walz got out over his skis just a bit, but it ain’t that far off from the essence of 2025’s intent.
Along
these lines:
CNN is being hypertechnical. Project 2025 is not just the 900 or so written pages of a single text. It includes the off-the-books policies its authors and Trump/Vance advocate. The vast majority of its authors worked in Trump’s first administration. They expect to be there for Trump 2.0.
CNN’s Abby Phillip is also the anchor who described Tim Walz as “unprepared,” which was a stretch, even for her.
Rayne,
I’m not a fast enough reader nor typist to participate in real time, or even to react with quick after-time thoughts, but I wanted to just say thank you for your repeatedly bringing us these enticing ‘open’ threads and for your real-time moderation of them . . . of course, in addition to my appreciation for your “regular” moderation efforts which are indeed noble and show the tremendous generosity of time you give this community on a daily basis!
Also, the timeline you gave us with your post earlier on Trump-McMaster-Afganistan was exceptional and very detailed. Thanks for your work there too!
Thanks! You’re too kind. The event-based posts have become a necessity. Because folks need to discuss events they’ll bleed into other threads, swamping other topics making moderation challenging. It’s also easier for community members who can’t participate during the event to find discussion about it later.
Re: the timeline — it’s been accumulating for a while on my desk, really needed to share it once my post about Trump’s ANC scandal gelled. It’s a work in progress; feel free to let me know if I need to add/change anything. I suspect there’s still more hidden but for the lack of putting more pieces together.
I too wish to join in appreciation.
I prefer good recap and commentary to live viewing.
Digesting all those lies in realtime ain’t in my diet.
I thought Walz agreed with Vance way too eagerly and often.
It normalized Vance and didn’t give supposed “undecideds” enough contrast between them.
Sometimes it was almost as if Walz was endorsing Vance’s entire 2 minute segment – even if those 2 minutes contained lies – just because he was looking for one thing he could say they agreed on.
And Walz should have pointed out every time Vance didn’t answer the question, or at least the first couple times, to alert people to it. It would have only taken a few seconds of his time.
Not sure if it was just nervousness, or if he got bad advice, but Walz wasn’t able to fully be his self. He still came across as earnest and relatable, but Vance successfully shapeshifted into someone reasonable and not weird. So I hope it was at least a wash.
Worrying about undecideds is a complete waste of time. The contrast of the choices could not be more clear. The Harris/Walz campaign should concern themselves with dragging in the reluctant Republicans. I repeatedly wonder if the undecided are the same people that wear pajamas and slippers to the grocery store.
We are somewhat in agreement about undecideds, which is why I said “supposed.”
But my view is that these people actually know Trump is reprehensible but are looking for a reason to rationalize voting for him enough so they can fool themselves into believing they are not pieces of shit for doing it, but not enough that they want to admit to anyone they did it.
One thing that Trump is running with and amplifying it via Andrew Pollack a MAGA who lost a daughter in the Parkland school shooting, is a verbal flub of Walz in the middle of the Gun control section.
Walz was brilliant in this section,
Which included a paragraph discussing how he came to know the Sandy Hook parents.
Unfortunately he flubbed at one point and said “I befriended school shooters” -the context was clear that he meant to say the victims of school shooters or something along those lines. The 2sec flu has been clipped by Trump on Truth social and weaponised.
The entire gun discussion is here https://www.youtube.com/live/VpYtvWCLPAQ
[1:28:55 – section starts;
1:34:29 -the answer the question contains the flub begins,(1:34:39-40 flub), 1:35:42 end of section]
Thanks, Rayne, for setting up this post, and all the commenters, which gave me a good update since I could watch only the last 20 minutes (and got to this blog even later yet).
My only wish for a Walz answer when finally the topic of democracy was brought by the moderators and Vance went back to Hillary Clinton was that Walz had simply said: Hillary gave her concession speech the day after the 2016 elections; when did Trump give his after the 2020 elections?
I know, I know, this sounds inexpensive, yet wishes may be admissible.
The thing that strikes me about JD is that he is, and has been, fundamentally unhappy with himself for a long time. He has continuously reinvented who he is over the past decades. From the multiple name changes, to his “hillbilly background” and bashing the Ivy League school he attended, he simply hasn’t found a true self that he likes. That seems pretty dangerous to me. Also, am I the only one who noticed that he wears eyeliner?
Sarah Sanders smokey eyes?
No. People have long noticed it, and comics make fun of it. He claims he doesn’t wear eyeliner.
Because nobody has asked him if it is kajal
I think he got it tattooed on.
Yes, Vance behaves as if he doesn’t much like himself, but he seems obsessed with wealth and power, presumably to insulate himself and, dangerously, to get even.
He seems to reimagine himself as what he thinks the perfect courtier to the most powerful man in the room should be. What happens when he’s that man? Not a personality who should be near public power, let alone in the Oval Office.
“Get even” with whom? Women?
Take your pick. I suspect it’s a large dataset.
Vance is a very skilled liar.
9:00 PM DEBATE begins [Moderators state rules]
9:02 PM TRUMP:
https://bsky.app/profile/joshuajfriedman.com/post/3l5ilp743y32h October 1, 2024 at 9:32 PM
9:33 PM [shortly before]
https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1841290326268420300
9:33 PM · Oct 1, 2024
“The rules were that you guys weren’t going to fact-check.”
In other words he thought he had a license to lie and now claims it’s the moderators that are less than honest. There have been many comments about the debate being civil. I don’t consider a blizzard of lies to be civil under any circumstances.
William Shakespeare of BlueSky:
https://bsky.app/profile/shakespeare.bsky.social/post/3l5jqxiyz462l
October 2, 2024 at 8:39 AM
https://bsky.app/profile/joshuajfriedman.com/post/3l5j4vbmid52q
October 2, 2024 at 2:40 AM
We’re Lutherans. We don’t talk about religion. LOL!
Much thanks to the next Vice President of the United States Tim Walz for courageously championing important national policies for the good people of our country during the telecast last night. He is likeable, trustworthy, and fair-minded. His opponent came off as a calculating corporate lawyer contentiously at odds with the event moderators in their only attempt to responsibly flag one of his false statements.