Trump’s Other Immunity Claim: Stealing Boxes and Boxes of Classified Documents
Whatever else the SCOTUS grant of Trump’s immunity claim did, it provided the basis for scheduling clarity.
It seems likely SCOTUS has committed to deciding the immunity question by the end of term, in June.
That would present Tanya Chutkan with the decision of whether to try the January 6 case during the election season (it is her choice, not DOJ’s to make). She had been entertaining starting the trial in August, which would have bled into election season as it is, so she may decide to do this. If she does, it is unlikely a jury would reach a verdict before election day, but the trial would give voters opportunity to see the evidence before voting.
The decision to grant cert is as interesting for Trump’s other immunity claim — Trump’s even more frivolous claim that he can’t be prosecuted for stealing boxes and boxes of classified documents because his claimed decision to convert those government documents to his personal possession in violation of the Presidential Records Act is immune from prosecution, as well. I’ve seen some commentary that SCOTUS may have been trying to come up with a different solution but then decided to hear the case. If that’s true, the decision to hear the case came less than a week after Trump made that other claim of immunity, that he can steal classified documents with impunity. Who knows? It’s not before the court, but it may have affected their decision to hear the case.
The matter will be fully briefed by the time Jack Smith submits his brief to SCOTUS on April 8. So he can have two absurd claims of immunity to address, Trump’s claim he can steal the election with impunity, and Trump’s claim he can convert boxes and boxes of classified documents to do with as he pleases on the way out the door even if it violates the Presidential Records Act, a law passed specifically to apply to Presidents. One of the matters that had been hypothetical before the DC Circuit — that Trump might sell nuclear documents to our adversaries — has become concrete.
Given the question as posed by SCOTUS — Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office? — I think SCOTUS may have been uncomfortable with the DC Circuit’s thin treatment of Trump’s argument that, without immunity, former Presidents could be prosecuted for things like approving the drone strike on Anwar al-Awlaki (note, when Trump raises this, he never mentions that he himself killed Awlaki’s daughter).
Former President Trump argues that criminal liability for former Presidents risks chilling Presidential action while in office and opening the floodgates to meritless and harassing prosecution. These risks do not overcome “the public interest in fair and accurate judicial proceedings,” which “is at its height in the criminal setting.” Vance, 140 S. Ct. at 2424.
Former President Trump first asserts that the prospect of potential post-Presidency criminal liability would inhibit a sitting President’s ability to act “fearlessly and impartially,” citing the “especially sensitive duties” of the President and the need for “bold and unhesitating action.”
There has to be something that distinguishes such actions from those charged against Trump. That something is likely the conversion of the Presidency to one’s own personal benefit. It’s not in the DC Circuit opinion and needs to be — all the more so given that, in Florida, Trump is claiming that he could legally simply convert boxes and boxes of classified documents to his personal property, even though the Presidential Records Act prohibits it.
It’s not in the DC Circuit opinion. But something like that has to be, some measure to distinguish the ordinary unlawful stuff Presidents are asked to authorize on behalf of the country and the venal stuff Trump did to benefit himself.
Tomorrow, Judge Cannon will hold a hearing to discuss how to schedule that trial. Her original schedule included six months of things after pretrial motions, which would put her schedule at September as well (though she’s obviously more likely to stall until after the election). But one thing she can expect is that, by June, Trump’s immunity claim will be resolved.
Update: Here’s the language from Trump’s brief that addresses this problem.
The panel opinion ignores the long history of real-world examples of Presidents engaging in actual behavior that political opponents viewed as egregious and “criminal.” Instead, keying on the Special Counsel’s arguments, the panel fretted about lurid hypotheticals that have never occurred in 234 years of history, almost certainly never will occur, and would virtually certainly result in impeachment and Senate conviction (thus authorizing criminal prosecution) if they did occur—such as a hypothetical President corruptly ordering the assassination of political rivals through “SEAL Team Six.” D.C. Cir. Oral Arg Tr. 10:19-21. Such hypotheticals provide fodder for histrionic media coverage, but they are a poor substitute for legal and historical analysis. Confronted with real-world hypotheticals—such as President Obama’s killing of U.S. citizens by drone strike—the Special Counsel conceded below that Presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts likely exists and would apply, directly contradicting the “categorical,” App’x 20A, holdings to the contrary of both the appellate panel and the trial court. D.C. Cir. Oral Arg Tr. 49:18-22 (Special Counsel admitting that a “drone strike” where “civilians were killed … might be the kind of place in which the Court would properly recognize some kind of immunity”). Further, the logical presupposition of such speculative hypotheticals—i.e., that the Founders supposedly must have intended that no alleged Presidential misdeed could ever escape prosecution—is plainly incorrect and contradicts the basic premises of a system of separated powers. “While the separation of powers may prevent us from righting every wrong, it does so in order to ensure that we do not lose liberty.” Morrison, 487 U.S. at 710 (Scalia, J., dissenting).
Jack Smith’s response doesn’t really deal with this issue in depth.
7 A sufficient basis for resolving this case would be that, whatever the rule in other contexts not presented here, no immunity attaches to a President’s commission of federal crimes to subvert the electoral process. See Amici Br. of John Danforth et al., at 7. The court of appeals’ analysis was “specific” to the allegations that applicant conspired to “overturn federal election results and unlawfully overstay his Presidential term,” Appl. App. 31A, and a stay can be denied on that basis alone, leaving for another day whether any immunity from criminal prosecution should be recognized in any circumstances. See Gov’t C.A. Br. 45-49 (explaining that foreign affairs are not implicated in this case); cf. Nixon, 418 U.S. at 707, 710, 712 n.19 (reserving whether an absolute presidential-communications privilege might exist for military, diplomatic, or national security secrets).
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Thank you.
Marcy, thank you Marcy, thank you for bringing up the al-Awlakis. As you say, they prove that there are some instances of (qualified?) immunity.
The immunity is still considered “absolute” but not always applicable. Qualified immunity is a different thing (legally speaking).
But agree – excellent analysis as usual. And I say this neutrally and with high praise, as a classmate and friend of one of Marcy’s least favorite Ephs (’91). ;)
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Thank you, Marcy, once again for your reliable reporting. .
While the delay seems to be in Trump’s favor, the delay in granting cert makes sense in light of waiting to see what defense theories and motions were presented to Cannon (happened last week, if I recall correctly). And the April date gives Smith the whole month of March to construct their brief on an intricate and ultimately important issue, so the April date makes sense to me. I still hope that the public will still hear the evidence in both trials before Election Day.
But even if not, Trump won’t win (his primary numbers are weak) as long as the economy keeps going like this. A more pragmatic fear would be that Haley manages to secure the nomination — she could beat Biden, plausibly (e.g. she has actual policy statements!); most of the general voters are tired of Trump’s shit and bullshit.
David F. Snyder wrote:
“she could beat Biden, plausibly (e.g. she has actual policy statements!)”
Niki Haley does not support the internationally recognized, fundamental human right to Reproductive Autonomy for over half the U.S. population…a non-starter in a general election post-Dobbs.
As Monica Hesse wrote in WaPo, October 10, 2023:
“Don’t be fooled by Nikki Haley’s soft-talk on abortion
The former Trump administration diplomat is better at talking about abortion than her Republican rivals. But that doesn’t mean she’ll protect the right to choose.”
Her statements on abortion are nonsense, literally.
She appears to hope no one notices.
If that is her hope, her hopes are in vain.
Her “Hope” seems to center around the possibility of trump being removed from the game. She is campaigning as if that will happen and she’ll then become the GOP candidate. How that happens is anyone’s guess but there’s one that the press doesn’t seem to be entertaining.
trump cutting a deal.
Sooner or later trump is going to face a big decision: Take a plea or roll the dice with the jury.
That plea will no doubt include a provision that keeps him from running for any elected office ever again in exchange for him staying out of prison. I imagine his “good” lawyers have been pushing him to do this for some time but his ego just won’t accept it. He still thinks he can win despite alienating even more voters than he did back in 2020. But that’s not Haleys concern. She’s betting on the courts to open the door for her.
If he takes such a deal he’s off the ballot in every state. Enter Haley as the Republican candidate against Biden.
But there’s a timing issue. If that plea deal decision has to be made before the election it has real weight. If trump thinks that offer will come after he loses that election, well…he’s even dumber than his voters.
Replacing Trump is the longest of long shots, the only chance of that is if Trump drops dead, which hey, could happen. But, and a big but it is, her Don Quixote impression makes her the de-facto Republican frontrunner in 2028. After all, she’s spending Koch money, not her own, and building her profile and a network of support for a real run later.
The Koch/Americans for Prosperity funds for Haley were pulled after her second-place finish in SC. A rougher financial road ahead for Haley and Trump, both?
Not pulled, paused. Notice they didn’t pull their endorsement?
I think they are just waiting to see what happens. If my hypothetical were to come true I think she would suddenly have all the funding she needs to run against Joe. In the army we always had a contingency plan. I think the Kochs looked at their options, choose Haley over DeSantis, and that’s what we have today.
I think the Kochs are also weighing the likelihood that Trump successfully converts the RNC into his legal defense fund, in which case they may need to redeploy their funding to try to preserve down-ballot wins.
You are right about Haley and reproductive autonomy, which I believe includes the right to legally be LGBTQ+ with all attendant legal protections and medical care.
Yet when I ponder a first Haley administration vs. a second go around with Trump, Haley seems less overtly apocalyptic, overall. The character of the chaos will be different under Haley than Trump. But a Biden win, whether a landslide or paper thin, will still produce unprecedented chaos. Post election chaos and misery are not options but a guarantee.
“But a Biden win, whether a landslide or paper thin, will still produce unprecedented chaos.”
What is your imagined scenario, specifically? Donald will inspire Jan 6 II?
This is why it is so important that especially the J6 case go to trial and come to a verdict before the election. The risk is a hung jury which Trump will spin as an acquittal that could very well win him the election. But if the trial is well underway, or Trump is convicted, and Biden wins, there will be enough info out there to prevent another J6, especially if the Dems win a majority in the HR. This last is so vital to preserving our democracy that even a venerable conservative Republican like Liz Cheney is publicly supporting a Democratic HR majority. If Trump loses again, the multiple loser mantra may take hold among his followers. But MAGA will still be there as a movement looking for a new leader, and there are plenty of unscrupulous figures who will try to claim that spot. Even if he loses the election, Trump could still act as a de facto leader of GOP House and Senate caucuses. He could even be elected Speaker with a Republican majority. This is why I think he has to be put in jail if convicted. Although I like the idea someone else raised of a plea deal that would eliminate the risk of trial and future office holding, I can’t imagine Trump ever agreeing to that, or abiding by its terms in good faith.
Your reasoning re Biden victory escapes me.
I do not have any quotes to cite but I have read that republicans will not accept a Biden win & an armed J6 redux is planned. I’m sorry to post “gossip” but I believe Leonard Leo just told an interviewer that the entire 2025 plan has not been revealed to democrats so I think that is within the realm of possibility for the republican party.
I say let them bring it. That way these troublemakers will end up in jail or perhaps deceased.
We should not, we will not, allow our country to be taken over by an armed insurrection. What you describe would be the second Civil War. We need to win that war to save the Union.
And what exactly would this second Civil War look like.? A take over of Little Rock. Armed invasion of Boise? Or maybe you’re thinking of convoys headed to NY or L.A. I just don’t see it logistically. Demonstrations maybe. Though, outside of DC, there wasn’t much of that last time. Any talk of Civil War sounds like so much impotence on parade to me.
It’s all fun & games until the Apache helicopters come down. /s
Wars cost money. First thing to go is access to any bank accounts, then they go after other assets like disabling your phone/communications accounts, all the carriers will do it because they know who butters their bread. The only reason they got as far as they did on Jan6 was because no one took them seriously. There won’t be a repeat.
Big Money people like Leonard Leo are not going to do by force what they can do by subterfuge. Chaos is not conducive to business.
I see no reason to think either Trump personally or the Trump-identified GOP will accept a Biden win under any circumstances.
This is so fully baked in, I imagine there is a certain subset of MAGA and Trump supporters who might on some level welcome a Biden win, as it will license a more radical overthrow of democracy than even a Trump victory would. Certainly, they are prepared to dispute it with everything they have, no matter how unreasonable or fabricated that may be.
Trump will never accept a Trump-negative outcome, that is his Terminator-like pathology, and his supporters are by now prepared to use his relentlessness as a vehicle to plow over and destroy as much of the “radical communist pervert left” as they can. They are in too far to back down.
_Some_ “chaos”? Sure.
Unprecedented? Like, more than the actual Civil War or even the Whiskey Rebellion? No and also no.
Multiple things can be true:
1. Stochastic terrorism is indeed a thing.
2. Some tragedies may well occur if Biden wins, perhaps impacting the lives and/or livelihoods of maybe 0.00001% of the population.
3. And those of us who care will soldier on.
I grew up in 70s/80s rural Iowa. I visit there often. There is far, far, far, far, FAR more to worry about in the passive bandwagoning with fascist policies under Trump than a handful of Bubbas gone wilding under Biden. 99.9% of those folks — my old neighbors, family, and friends — are paper tigers; they will dang surely acquiesce to or celebrate repression dealt by an empowered Trump, but they have better things to do than going all Aamon Bundy or Baked Alaska on civil society. A FEW WILL. The vast majority won’t do jack.
She’ll drop that position in a second if it means winning.
Haley is the closest thing to a sure winner the Republicans have.
Haley has very little chance of winning the general, her primary numbers are even weaker than Trump’s. In order to even have a chance, she would need to convince enough of Trump supporters to vote for her, who are likely to not vote at all since their king is not on the ballot.
That’s why there is a primary process, to build a base that can be used in the general.
Haley is still in this race on the chance that either Dotard gets convicted or strokes out while rage tweeting at 3 am. It doesn’t seem like she thought it all the way through. She won’t have enough delegates to win the nomination and Drumpf’s delegates will either go to one person or several to eventually get rid of her in a brokered convention.
Let’s be extremely optimistic and say she’s going to get 35-40% of all delegates. Not enough to secure the nomination. The MAGAs will eventually coalesce around a candidate. They will all be mad at Haley for staying in the race despite zero chance of winning and they will mete out their revenge at the convention.
Even if Trump gets convicted he will still be the nominee. Republicans are that afraid of his base. Why? I have no idea, only that they’ve proven that time and time again.
I think they are afraid of losing an enthusiastic voting bloc. Conservatism has a tendency to not try to expand the tent to include new folks, rather it seeks to preserve the status quo. Enter Trump, who activates a large crowd of enthusiastic voters and they don’t care about anyone but him and they want more extreme policies.
They could be scared in a sense of being in mortal danger (MAGA world does like to threaten) but they could also be just as scared of losing power for a generation because they don’t want to moderate policy and expand their constituency with moderate Republicans and Independents.
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I don’t believe that otherwise moderate GOP politicians are so much afraid of the MAGA base, as they are desperate to benefit from the Trump mailing list of small-dollar donors that fuels every major political race. Trump supporters are unlike any other, and they prove it with dollars. A Trump endorsement keeps that money flowing. If a politician falls from his favor, they lose access to the donor list. In a party where the pool of big-dollar donors has shrunk dramatically, most Republicans (in the House, especially) see kissing the ring as the only path to having money in the war chest.
Excellent point. Only need to look at state party apparatus like Michigan’s GOP which has been on the verge of bankruptcy for months under leadership of Trump-approved chair Kristina Karamo.
But there’s two components to this: Karamo helped hollow out the state party’s funding by refusing all but small donors while Trump leaned hard into the same small donors. This not only siphoned off small donors’ money and their personal data but it cut off access to large donors. I will bet good money Karamo also acted as a gatekeeper on which large donors if any could access data.
Uh…except that Smith was ready to roll with this back in November and December of last year. This isn’t about giving Smith time for anything, it’s about helping Trump delay being legally accountable for his numerous charged alleged criminal actions in US courts. With a helping of history book glamor jonesing thrown in on the part of SCOTUS Justices, the ones who feel left out when everyone applauds a unanimous district appeals court panel on the immunity of Presidents question.
I read it as Smith trying to avoid this diversion of “gee, the tuff things we do as president” to narrowly focus on self-serving non-work-related election interference.
And perhaps avoid this SC hearing. Don’t know if he can file a supplemental.
I agree with all of the above. I think the DC opinion was missing that analysis and SCOTUS was uncomfortable with that, especially in the light of the FL motion. DC Circuit relied too heavily on the obviously bs double jeopardy argument, which thankfully the Supremes seem to have dispensed with.
I also think now Smith can successfully argue to Cannon to move forward with all other pre-trial motions AND all CIPA litigation, as none of that is dependent on SCOTUS, and just stay the opinion on immunity until after SCOTUS decides. That wouldn’t jeopardize Trump’s right to an interlocutory appeal in the event that SCOTUS reverses, as you just said, there’s at least 6 months of pretrial work still to be done.
But if SCOTUS affirms, it would cut off the interlocutory appeals in this case. And maybe, it might even go to trial before the election (tho I’m sure Cannon will try to make sure that doesn’t happen).
“I also think now Smith can successfully argue to Cannon to move forward with all other pre-trial motions AND all CIPA litigation, as none of that is dependent on SCOTUS, and just stay the opinion on immunity until after SCOTUS decides. That wouldn’t jeopardize Trump’s right to an interlocutory appeal in the event that SCOTUS reverses, as you just said, there’s at least 6 months of pretrial work still to be done.”
IANAL, but my understanding is that immunity grants the right not to be *prosecuted* for specific conduct, which seems like it should encompass the pre-trial activity as well as the actual trial. That ought to preclude the scenario you’re proposing here.
Among other things, thank you for reiterating a fundamental fact.
Marcy Wheeler wrote:
“That would present Tanya Chutkan with the decision of whether to try the January 6 case during the election season (it is her choice, not DOJ’s to make)”
The election season began the day Trump announced he was running. If the SC denied to hear the appeal, the trial would still be held during the election season.
We are in the election season now.
To a large extent the trial is the election. I suspect / hope Chutkan decides to hold the trial regardless / despite how close to election day. Id like nothing better than to see it run right up to election day with final arguments the week before or during when voting begins.
America should be smothered with non stop news about Trump facing the evidence of his crimes against America and Americans. The truth is not an unduly influence; it is an overdue influence.
Looks like Jack Smith is going to pitch the date of July 8 to Cannon tomorrow as the revised trial date for the MAL documents case
“The matter will be fully briefed by the time Jack Smith submits his brief to SCOTUS on April 8. So he can have two absurd claims of immunity to address, Trump’s claim he can steal the election with impunity, and Trump’s claim he can convert boxes and boxes of classified documents to do with as he pleases on the way out the door even if it violates the Presidential Records Act, a law passed specifically to apply to Presidents. One of the matters that had been hypothetical before the DC Circuit — that Trump might sell nuclear documents to our adversaries — has become concrete.”
Yes.
That paragraph of Marcy’s made such beautiful common sense to me, happy that you pulled it out and agreed, bmaz!
I want to stay on track this next month about what is actually being said, done, considered, and acted upon. I won’t understand it all, but I hope and want to find my lost trust that we are a nation of laws.
It’s going to be a bumpy ride I am afraid. Trump likely will not lose anything, but it is important that SCOTUS, with or without delay, addresses the subject. They are, despite many commenter claims here, doing so expeditiously for SCOTUS.
I do not understand why people are saying that the January 6th trial will be able to get going by August even if the court waits until late June to get this opinion out. Chutkan said back in September (and reiterated in her January 18th order) that she was expecting pre-trial motions to take seven months. The clock has stopped at the original stay order on December 14, almost three months from the original court date of March 4. It won’t start again until this opinion is out.
The only way this trial starts in August is if the opinion comes out in May. And that’s assuming there won’t be more appeals from Trump that chase their way up the appeals ladder. If the opinion comes out in late June, or even July, we’re looking at late September, even October at a minimum – right in the middle of the general election season. Chutkan may talk a good game of no election stopping this trial, and I see it during the primary, but when it comes right down to it? During the general election? During early voting?
Can someone see any other way this trial, pre-trial and all, happens before Election Day? I don’t.
If SCOTUS rules on June 30, trial will start on September 26. So no, the trial won’t be done by election day. But Trump would spend all of October in a court room, and the press would be focused closely on what he did on Jan6.
Not trying to be picky, just trying to completely understand.
SOTUS calendar is here https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/2023TermCourtCalendar.pdf
Thursdays 6. 13, 20 June are blocked out as non hearing/ conference days, and the week M 24 -F 28 is free, and I presume 28 June is the last Friday for SCOTUS before summer recess so June ruling would come at latest on or before F 28 June
Chutkan’s 7months to prepare I believe had 81 days left to run
(11 weeks 4days)
Which by my calculation ends up with Mon 16 September as the 80th day following Friday 28 June
If trial commenced M 16 September the 6th week would commence on M 28 October
I have no doubt Trump et al would do all they could to delay and/or pad out any trial. But he isn’t giving evidence himself.
So on this senario the concluding phase of the trial perhaps coincides with the last days of the campaign.
Hard to know how long jury selection will take.
88 days. But I take your point re June 28.
Ty
I take your point on 88 days.
There are confusingly competing calculations.
but my mistake for taking it non inclusively from the date of Chutkan Order 13 December,
whereas of course her order did not effectuate the stay, but in fact and law merely recorded that the stay had already come into effect by operation of law by the filing of a notice of appeal
ON the DATE that Trump filed the notice which was
Thursday 7 December 2023.
Thanks for correction. Apologies for mistake. I have noted the above so that others may understand the error I made and so avoid repeating it.
Neal Katyal has suggested that Chutkan could be persuaded to shorten the 88-day period given the long delay necessitated by SCOTUS. Do you see this as possible?
Yes, please!
If the trial is underway on Election Day, and the worst comes to pass and Donald Trump wins the election, will the trial keep going after that?
There are 2 1/2 months between election day and swearing in day. But Cannon would probably promptly declare the case moot, Chutkan, probably not, until he’s sworn in. Even if Trump is convicted before his swearing in, though, he’s still entitled to one appeal, and I don’t see how that could proceed if he’s in office. It’s a mess.
If Trump becomes president while trials are in progress, he’ll order them halted. If he fails and is convicted, then you get into unchartered waters over self-pardons, which would test your constitution to its limit.
(Rayne, I commented a couple of times absolutely ages ago and cannot remember any of my details. I’m hoping to become more regular so I’ll stick with this name if that’s alright with you.)
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So, all those warnings — going back to the anti-New Dealers — about excessive executive power were well-taken.
Agree it’s a mess. Do not agree the appeal could not just proceed. Just do it.
On what basis would even Cannon be able to rely on to declare the case moot simply because Trump won the election?
The trial will keep going until it is over or shutdown. It won’t automagically be shutdown simply because an election has been held. But check in again if Trump does actually win in the 2024 electoral college vote or has his supporting thugs decide that turmoil is better than following the Constitution again.
The Supreme Court needs to only answer a simple yes or no question:
“Are we are a nation of laws, where *all men are equal and NO ONE* is above the law, yes or no?”
As it stands now, agreeing to take up the immunity case, thereby putting the seditious conspiracy trial on hold, they’ve already given an answer: “No, one is above the law.”
By One, is above the law, you mean That One, the One who can order:
-extrajudicial assassinations within our own borders (i.e. ‘I could shoot somebody and not lose any voters’)
-mass deportations of asylum seekers and yank citizenship from anchor-baby-adults
-arming paramilitary thugs with RPGs and HellFire-Drones
-termination of the previous administration’s DOJ cases against him
=>The One who inspires museums like The Holocaust Memorial
That One?
“…in impeachment and Senate conviction (thus authorizing criminal prosecution)”
So, I’m pretty sure this has already been addressed, but seeking confirmation: this isn’t really a thing, right? Or is it a thing if the SCOTUS says it’s a thing?
Given that it’s a proposed interpretation of the language of the Impeachment Clause, I suppose it’s a thing if SCOTUS says it’s a thing, but it’s such an absurd reading that I can’t imagine even Alito and Thomas being willing to go there. The prior opinions on that specific argument have been roundly dismissive.
Alito and Thomas say “hold my beer!” Or is that Kavanaugh? I can’t keep up…
Kavanaugh would never let anyone hold his beer. Thomas and Alito would never ask him to hold theirs either.
Thomas is drinking a rare Burgundy out of Hitler’s wineglass (Harlan Crow paid for both).
Very good point! Kavanaugh likes his beer way too much to allow anyone to hold it, but he also would like to hold Thomas’ and Alito’s as well! In his stomach.
No. There was a Federal Judge (chief judge no less) who was impeached and convicted by the Senate while he was serving a criminal sentence in a federal penitentiary. Another Federal judge was impeached and removed who was not even officially being investigated, nor was he even after his removal.
Both processes are independent of each other conducted by separate branches, though they may deal with the same offense.
Thanks, I thought there might have been some case history to back that up.
If this is what SCOTUS is getting at, do they affirm that there are actions that could be deemed criminal but that are covered by Presidential immunity but the actions taken by Trump were not “official acts” or do they send it back to the district court to determine that part with the ability of Trump to argue that they are?
Good questions. It’s up to how the Court frames its answer to a broad question.
With respect to the DC Circuit, hasn’t the question of whether these were “official acts” already been litigated in *Blassingame*?
First, Blassingame is a civil case, and at Jack Smith’s request DC Circuit didn’t bind itself to it.
But I think for worse and better this is more general. SCOTUS wants to clear up this point bc NOT doing so presents problem, even as soon as the SDFL comes to SCOTUS, which is why I raised it here.
If John Roberts’s Court has established anything, it’s that it is not bound by precedent.
Or much of anything else!
I’m still at a loss with the phrasing by the Supreme Court: “Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office.” (Bolding mine.)
Do they assume the allegations in the indictment refer only to official acts? I think the question, e.g., whether the infamous call with Raffensperger was an official act or not, is still unresolved.
And if the SC decides all actions during tenure (like phone calls from the WH) are official acts for which a former president enjoys immunity: Wouldn’t Chutkan then have to dismiss the case altogether?
Where is the error in my perception of the most recent news?
The word immunity does not appear in the Constitution.
This ought to present a problem to the textualists. But in a juridical order where whether the Chief Magistrate is an officer is debatable, it won’t.
The only way that sentence makes sense to me is to read it as “conduct alleged by Trump to involve official acts.”
That is the dominant meaning I get from it too, Scott. The only party arguing/alleging the acts are official is Trump.
Steve Vladeck in his live thread last night (https://stevevladeck.substack.com/p/tonight-9-et-live-thread-on-the-courts/comments — thanks to harpie for noting it in last night’s column):
Hrm. What if — bear with me here — a majority of justices decide that there are no “unofficial acts?”
A potential conclusion that ridiculous is not based in anything other than Alito/Thomas vibes, not actual case law and/or interpretive methods. But I wouldn’t whistle past that particular graveyard.
That’s what makes me so confused. I think that a decision made on the basis that all actions mentioned in the indictment were official acts barred from prosecution — then the case would be dead, wouldn’t it? But that should be a decision on the facts to be ruled upon by the District Court first. So I still don’t get what the SC thinks it could do.
My hope now lies with the words “Whether and if so to what extent” — leaving some questions within the extent still to be tried — whenever that may happen. (Which wouldn’t be a problem if Biden wins the election.)
If your first paragraph were how the Supreme Court intended to rule, it would have denied cert. It must have something else in mind.
He violated the law when he magically converted Classified documents into personal ones, and he did that while he was President (although that’s the Florida case with Cannon). It doesn’t make sense that violating that law would be acceptable whether it was the President or anyone else … right?
“He violated the law when he magically converted Classified documents into personal ones, and he did that while he was President (although that’s the Florida case with Cannon).”
This statement conflates Trump’s defense with what he’s charged with, which are definitely not the same thing.
“It must have something else in mind.”
And that’s what is frightening.
The Supreme Court needs to only answer a simple yes or no question:
“Are we are a nation of laws, where *all men are equal and NO ONE* is above the law, yes or no?”
As it stands now, agreeing to take up the immunity case, thereby putting the seditious conspiracy trial on hold, they’ve already given an answer: “No, one is above the law.”
Would or could SCOTUS create a test for whether or not some act of a President is considered covered by immunity? For example is it ministerial or discretionary and leave it to lower courts to make that determination? Would that become a question for the jury?
They could, yes. Will they? Not sure about that.
SCOTUS can deny “absolute” immunity, yet as this is a question of first impression, (not raised within Nixon obstruction considerations where executive privilege was argued), SCOTUS can go further. There is no body of case by case defining of parameters and limits for a controlling immunity question touching upon A14, sect. 3 “insurrection.”
The Presidential Records Act question also has an “honest state of mind” dimension which can be argued as factual for triers of fact to determine at a trial as a valid excuse. With or without an ongoing obstruction or classified data aspect document retention law still is more settled, (nuclear weapon secrets being specially protected).
Yet a “notebooks” vs “diaries” game came to exist re personal records.
In fact, SCOTUS can do whatever it by majority vote wants in this singular instance, indeed in any instance, while denying an “absolute” immunity so it does not stupidly appear to authorize an incumbent to “suicide” an opponent without recourse.
They can fashion a safeguard against a single State clearly going rogue on a ballot disqualification decision aimed to intentionally sabotage and void the nationwide actual “will of the people” (even while in two instances electoral college and popular vote diverged where will of the people lost).
A criminally intended “official” act is a concept hard to wrap your mind around. Remember, Truman briefly but intentionally nationalized the steel industry during the Korean War to avert a strike, and had no specific constitutional nor congressional mandate to do so. A usurpation of private property rights. An impairment of contracts.
Similar to the drone strikes, it happened, and went “unpunished.” As Marcy distinguishes, Truman did not do so aiming for personal gain. Nor did he get any. Acts arguably or clearly in the national interest are something most of us can distinguish (although the Civil War involved holding title to another human being as in the “national interest” of one side).
Trump’s conspiracy to steal the election was wholly selfish, with no real or credible national interest assertion feasible. His house of cards construct got John Eastman summarily fired, and likely will reach around to bite him too.
Yet he poisoned the well for Pence. Which likely made him more cheerful than otherwise, while his declared vindictiveness is a major worry.
MAGA as it is playing out is a worry, yet as a slogan and hat sales thing it is inspired. The beat goes on.
Lol, thanks for your masterful opinion.
Error Prone, your phrase “wholly selfish” gets at the crux of EW’s post, which I read to be that Smith wouldn’t be facing this delay now if he had come up with a legal argument based on the fact of Trump’s self-interested motives.
Blassingame lays some groundwork but doesn’t go far enough, as it is a civil case and self-interest may not be limited to “office-seeker” acts. I don’t know how a selfishness legal argument would be constructed, but the essentialist idea of it appeals to me.
any chance SCOTUS can rule that a president can’t pardon oneself?
No. It’s not before them.
I have a suspicion that one reason Smith wanted a ruling on immunity generally is bc he’s got additional charges, including pardon abuse, he wants to charge.
Let’s hope that there’s some coherent clarity coming from the Supreme Court sooner rather than later on this.
I want to highlight another issue presented by the grant of cert by SCOTUS that I haven’t seen mentioned: Mark Meadows and his appeal at the 11th circuit (if memory serves). He has also claimed immunity from charges against acts in the outer perimeter of their official duty. The court has reviewed they were not official acts since they were electioneering. Because Meadows is claiming he was just doing as he was directed by a sitting president, this would fall under the same claim of immunity as Trumps. Yes, it could be they were looking at a pending claim of immunity by Trump in Florida, but the Meadows appeal is already ripe.
Meadows case involved interpreting the federal officer removal statute.
The case was dismissed on the ground it doesn’t apply to former officers.
The secondary issue was whether he could establish, the burden being upon him, that there was a colourable nexus between the acts constituting the gravamen of the offence alleged against him and his office. The question of Federal defences (immunity) wasn’t reached.
So although matters related to the scope of office arose, it is within a rather convoluted matrix established by the federal officer removal statute and an analysis of the gravamen of the offence charged against him as alleged contrary to Georgia RICO statute.
Not fertile territory from which illumination of the ambit of presidential immunity might be easily found.
“Just following orders” is not as good a look as Meadows may believe?
Ripe? Yeah. I can smell it from here.
As Marcy writes: “There has to be something that distinguishes such actions from those charged against Trump.”
Okay, I get this. But what I don’t understand is why the Court didn’t lift the stay, given that it doesn’t seem likely that the overall immunity case will prevail on appeal.
They didn’t lift the stay because of this:
“ The application for a stay presented to The Chief Justice is referred by him to the Court. The Special Counsel’s request to treat the stay application as a petition for a writ of certiorari is granted”
Just heard Andrew Weissman say on MSNBC that the Court gave Trump the benefit of a stay by keeping the mandate withdrawn without having to jump through the hoops of a stay. Is it 4 to grant Cert and 5 to grant a stay?
Yes, that’s been answered here many times. It takes four justices to grant cert., but five to grant a stay, pending a determination of whether to grant it, which can take a while. If granted, cert. also stays lower court proceedings.
Yes. I believe there have been instances where they have granted a stay, but then turn around and decline to grant cert. Granting a stay application is not the same as granting a cert petition. SC Smith wants them to move as quickly as possible so he requested they treat the stay, if they granted it, as if it were also a request to file for cert which was granted.
But since its an interlocutory appeal, didn’t they basically have to stay the mandate to grant cert? The issue they’re ruling on is whether Trump enjoys complete immunity from prosecution. If the district court proceedings were allowed to resume, Trump would be irreparably harmed by having to endure some prosecution stuff.
So instead, the Supreme Court gives Trump months of delay and the United States of America is irreparably harmed. Some justice system.
If the court gives Trump immunity there will be no need for courts. Trump can order his deputies to do anything and they can use unfettered force. This is dangerous.
I don’t think any kind of blanket immunity is realistic, although I think they could screw around with the boundaries of immunity and put in an unwitting Order 66 that could be a long or short-term hazard like the Insurrection Act. Their decision is not going to put the President ‘above the law’. Even if they wanted too, I think with the structure of Constitutional Law deconstructs whatever argument. Presidential plenary sovereignty isn’t in the structure of constitutional government. The country is not founded that way, constitutionally, and I think they’ll have to have a structure for whatever argument.
But Marcy has said they might have wanted to take this on to carve out the boundaries of immunity for something like “national security” or “actions or war” or whatever. Is there an “Alwaki exception”?
Alwaki was a 16 year old United States citizen killed by an Obama drone strike in 2011. From the WikiPedia article on the case, “Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011, airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna.” . Whether or not Alwaki was deliberately targeted or called “acceptable collateral damage” There is a “custom” that these are the most difficult and horrible choices a President has to make, but an opinion will change that to “permission”. “enemy combatants” or “terrorists” is not that far from “enemies of the people”. That’s just another matter of interpretation.
Great comment. Puts this horrible “anti-terrorism” hunter-seeker policy into context.
It just dawned on me SCOTUS may be using an “al-Awlaki exception” because of Trump’s assassination of Iran’s General Soleimani. Wonder now if any of the stolen presidential records including classified documents include information about the assassination, which may have been ordered by Trump but was likely not justified under Defense Department terms of engagement and therefore might have been questionably outside “official” presidential acts.
Have to wonder if there were any other assassinations ordered by Trump not documented by news media which likewise might have fallen into a grey zone.
Also have to wonder if this really is the carve out, how the Roberts’ court might have picked up on this issue.
An act of judgment, with a credible national interest justification, without actual personal gain or a reasonably inferred personal gain intent might be a way to define an official act.
Per the several coups our executive-IC engineered, (Chile and Iran 1953 come to mind aside from drone strikes), those would be expected to have to fall clean in what this SCOTUS will do. Ditto for the CIA’s secret war in Laos. https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/media/series/asia/20170207b-the-secret-war-in-laos-and-the-role-of-the-cia
Jan 6 sought personal gain, but failed, it was the beerhall putsch, a failed attempt, but by a sitting president, (still a sitting, acting president), with official congressional acts delayed into the evening J6.
Milley’s assurances to China is another thorny thing but nobody is pushing political challenge litigation theories. https://www.cato.org/commentary/gen-milleys-assurances-china-reckless-endangerment-not-prudent-precaution
Dude. Do you understand how military action is authorized? An official act like an attack on another nation requires Congressional approval if not already approved by a declaration of war or an Authorization for Use of Military Force.
That’s what the problem was with the Soleimani assassination — it did not have explicit Congressional approval, swagged widely on the remaining Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 to terminate without prejudice Iran’s highest ranking military officer. See this CRS report page 14: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46148
And please don’t use libertarian-right Cato with regard to Milley. Milley was correct in his assurances to China in January 2021 because there had been zero Congressional authorization for action against any Asian-Pacific country, period.
Thank you for the discussion on trial timing up above, everyone. It’s mostly appreciated.
What does everyone think about the SCOTUS giving immunity to “official acts” along the lines of the Speech and Debate Clause?
I suspect the focus on the quoted hypotheticals is correct. Although technically a narrow opinion, Henderson’s discretionary vs. mandatory dicta is very broad. And I assume some Justices felt it is unworkable tested against the sort of hypotheticals identified above. There may well be other language in the decision that gives them heartburn.
I don’t love the phrasing of the question presented: why should the defendant’s claim of alleged official conduct have any significance? Either the conduct is personal or official and what is alleged cannot be determinative of the issue. Resorting to fraud in an attempt to defeat the peaceful transfer of power and deciding what documents to take upon leaving office are personal actions, yes?
I agree with you that ‘alleged official acts’ is not happily phrased.
However the phrase “claimed or purported” may be close enough in meaning while giving Jack Smith et al a basis for drawing the sort of distinctions that might provide at least one bright line between official acts which should attract immunity and those “claimed or purported official acts” which don’t.
My thinking about this refinement is that it tracks with the allegations in the indictment and with the expressions used in DC Cir. (Eg rejection of Trump’s claim he was exercising his take care powers to investigate election fraud.
I haven’t fully thought this through, but where the alleged criminality has an anti-constitutional and or corrupt character and the putative offences committed are cognates of acts or conduct such as would reasonably attract investigation for Treason Bribery or High Crimes or Misdemeanours then immunity should not attach.
This kind of distinction might deal with the drone strike example.
I appreciate that this requires honing and polishing
Perhaps substitute for “investigation for” with “impeachment for”
You don’t have to get that involved. Trump had his day in court. He then used the functions of the office he was holding to subvert and overrule the judiciary (both state and federal, including this court), simply because they dismissed whatever appeals came in after the safe harbor date. His whole game with the courts is delay, delay, delay till the opposition is worn down, it didn’t work for the election because the courts ended that tactic.
That’s very helpful in considering how the court may be attempting to craft a Presidential criminal immunity rule, for future use by a relected Trump, and how legal/ constitutional arguments may be crafted to forestall such a jurisprudential outcome.
Diolch yn fawr.
They won’t rule in Trump’s favor in regards to the election. By doing so they would make any future ruling on any subject they make in the future irrelevant. Besides, they are judges and they expect their judgements be followed.
They may drag it out so that trial is post election, but it will go against Trump.
In other Russian document stealing news, there is a serious situation in the Fulton County case. As stated in Daily Beast with primary link to the Krebs blog below:
“A ransomware crew that claims to have obtained a trove of court documents related to Donald Trump’s criminal trial in Fulton County, Georgia, is threatening to dump it all online unless officials agree to buy its silence, according to a new report from former Washington Post reporter Brian Krebs. In a recent blog post, Krebs reported that the Russian-based LockBit hacker collective has warned it will publish the stolen documents on Saturday.”
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/02/fbis-lockbit-takedown-postponed-a-ticking-time-bomb-in-fulton-county-ga/
Apparently LockBit has subsequently removed the ransom note.
“The ransomware group LockBit told officials with Fulton County, Ga. they could expect to see their internal documents published online this morning unless the county paid a ransom demand. LockBit removed Fulton County’s listing from its victim shaming website this morning, claiming the county had paid. But county officials said they did not pay, nor did anyone make payment on their behalf. Security experts say LockBit was likely bluffing and probably lost most of the data when the gang’s servers were seized this month by U.S. and U.K. law enforcement…”
Possibly more here than meets the eye.
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/02/fulton-county-security-experts-call-lockbits-bluff/
Commentary by Noah Feldman yesterday on the “slow-walking” meme: Feldman focuses on the DOJ delay in bringing charges:
“Those delays might have been justified by the goal of restoring the Department of Justice to an apolitical approach to investigation and prosecution. But it is the timing of the prosecution, not the Supreme Court’s calendar, that explains why the timeline is now so short to get Trump tried before Election Day.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-02-29/the-supreme-court-isn-t-slow-walking-trump-s-jan-6-immunity-case
I’m curious about this “restoring to apolitical”. While Jack Smith seems to be focused on the crime, the other SC appointed during Garland’s tenure are very focused on the political. Was this restoration misguided? Is Garland so focused on cleaning the stables that his judgement is impaired?
With apologies to Rayne — I failed to find the instructions on formatting these posts.
You did fine. Quotation marks offsetting excerpts are fine for folks who don’t do HTML. It’s the commenters who cut-and-paste and make zero effort to note which content is theirs and which is someone else’s, especially without attribution or source links. Thanks.
To repeat a comment from the latest open thread, the DoJ has apparently said to Judge Cannon that its policy not to pursue legal process against a suspect close to an election, does Not apply after indictment. A logical argument, but it would have been better had the DoJ made and supported the argument before now.
The current Supreme Court – which is purportedly conservative – does not even need to decide the thorny issue about the scope of immunity for acts committed while in office. The trial judge and DC Circuit correctly found that Trump’s Jan. 6th activities were done as a candidate for reelection rather than as a sitting president. That’s why the DC Circuit didn’t have to address the scope of immunity question in detail.
The Supremes could affirm on that basis alone. Instead, they apparently intend to issue an advisory opinion about an official acts question which is not even before them. This violates the principle that courts should decide the issue presented, but not gratuitously go beyond it (generating what lawyers call “dicta”).
So much for judicial restraint.
Trumps lawyers have raised these issues so it’s another type of dicta here.
Wait what? Is there really proof or common knowledge that Trump sold in nuclear secrets to an enemy? I pay fairly close attention to the news but I missed that.
“that Trump might sell nuclear documents to our adversaries — has become concrete.”
Some of Trump’s filings and responses to judicial questions during appeal have indicated that Trump, through his counsel, may be arguing blanket immunity for any and all actions made while President. Note that Trump has consistently maintained that he is not the former President, even though courts have chastised his lawyers for trying to fail to acknowledge the 60+ rulings that found no basis for an overturning of the 2020 election which Biden won…
I can envision SCOTUS ruling that, as a general rule a former president is not immune from criminal prosecution, and that Donald Trump is not immune in this particular case, but leaving to future cases where the issue is squarely presented whether there are circumstances where immunity may apply. E.g., decisions made while the former president was functioning in his capacity as commander in chief of the armed forces. Trump, for example, is not being prosecuted for ordering the assassination of General Soleimani.