Jonathan Chait’s Rube-Con Lets SCOTUS Off Easy
Congratulations to Jonathan Chait, whose stupid column arguing against excluding Trump from the ballot won him recognition from the alleged insurrectionist himself.
To be sure, there are sound arguments against the Colorado ruling, even sounder ones against immediate SCOTUS action upholding or overturning it.
Chait — who boasts that Trump once labeled him a “no-talent illiterate hack” — does not make such an argument.
Chait abdicates any responsibility for reading the opinions at issue because, he says, he’s not competent, lacking the talent and literacy to read legal documents.
I am not a lawyer, and I won’t comment on the legal merits of the case.
Then, having declared himself incompetent to comment on the legal merits of the case, Chait proceeds to comment on the legal merits (or maybe he considers these mere political merits?) of labeling Trump an insurrectionist.
The argument for disqualification is quite simple. The Constitution bars officeholders who engaged in insurrection; on January 6, 2021, Trump engaged in insurrection; therefore, Trump is ineligible to hold office.
The weak point in this argument is the finding that Trump’s behavior constitutes “insurrection.” This is a defensible shorthand for January 6, one I’ve used frequently myself. But it’s not the most precise term. When I have the chance to use a longer description, I generally say that Trump attempted to secure an unelected second term in office.
Trump’s plan was to mobilize a mob to intimidate Congress into following his scheme to ignore the election results. His use of violent threats to secure power is obviously unforgivable, authoritarian, and very likely criminal. But there is at least some grounds to question whether it was an “insurrection” in the meaning intended by the 14th Amendment. Trump was not trying to seize and hold the Capitol nor declare a breakaway republic. [my emphasis]
Whether or not Trump is an insurrectionist under the meaning of the 14th Amendment, and Trump’s own failure to define insurrection in a way that excludes January 6, is something addressed in the opinions Chait has excused himself from reading.
For example, here’s some of how the Colorado Supreme Court — after a trial, after Trump mounted a defense — came to rule that January 6 qualified as an insurrection.
¶183 Finally, we note that at oral argument, President Trump’s counsel, while not providing a specific definition, argued that an insurrection is more than a riot but less than a rebellion.
[snip]
¶185 The question thus becomes whether the evidence before the district court sufficiently established that the events of January 6 constituted a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish the peaceful transfer of power in this country. We have little difficulty concluding that substantial evidence in the record supported each of these elements and that, as the district court found, the events of January 6 constituted an insurrection.
¶186 It is undisputed that a large group of people forcibly entered the Capitol and that this action was so formidable that the law enforcement officers onsite could not control it. Moreover, contrary to President Trump’s assertion that no evidence in the record showed that the mob was armed with deadly weapons or that it attacked law enforcement officers in a manner consistent with a violent insurrection, the district court found—and millions of people saw on live television, recordings of which were introduced into evidence in this case—that the mob was armed with a wide array of weapons. See Anderson, ¶ 155. The court also found that many in the mob stole objects from the Capitol’s premises or from law enforcement officers to use as weapons, including metal bars from the police barricades and officers’ batons and riot shields and that throughout the day, the mob repeatedly and violently assaulted police officers who were trying to defend the Capitol. Id. at ¶¶ 156–57. The fact that actual and threatened force was used that day cannot reasonably be denied.
¶187 Substantial evidence in the record further established that this use of force was concerted and public. As the district court found, with ample record support, “The mob was coordinated and demonstrated a unity of purpose . . . . They marched through the [Capitol] building chanting in a manner that made clear they were seeking to inflict violence against members of Congress and Vice President Pence.” Id. at ¶ 243. And upon breaching the Capitol, the mob immediately pursued its intended target—the certification of the presidential election—and reached the House and Senate chambers within minutes of entering the building. Id. at ¶ 153
¶188 Finally, substantial evidence in the record showed that the mob’s unified purpose was to hinder or prevent Congress from counting the electoral votes as required by the Twelfth Amendment and from certifying the 2020 presidential election; that is, to preclude Congress from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power. As noted above, soon after breaching the Capitol, the mob reached the House and Senate chambers, where the certification process was ongoing. Id. This breach caused both the House and the Senate to adjourn, halting the electoral certification process. In addition, much of the mob’s ire—which included threats of physical violence—was directed at Vice President Pence, who, in his role as President of the Senate, was constitutionally tasked with carrying out the electoral count. Id. at ¶¶ 163, 179–80; see U.S. Const. art. I, § 3, cl. 4; id. at art. II, § 1, cl. 3. As discussed more fully below, these actions were the product of President Trump’s conduct in singling out Vice President Pence for refusing President Trump’s demand that the Vice President decline to carry out his constitutional duties. Anderson, ¶¶ 148, 170, 172–73
¶189 In short, the record amply established that the events of January 6 constituted a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish the peaceful transfer of power in this country. Under any viable definition, this constituted an insurrection, and thus we will proceed to consider whether President Trump “engaged in” this insurrection.
In a column claiming to defend the interests of democracy, Chait substitutes his own self-confessed incompetent opinion — the “longer description” he sometimes uses instead of “shorthand,” when he uses “insurrection” — for that of duly appointed judges applying the laws of a specific state.
He does so while expressing another legal opinion: that Trump’s actions on January 6 were “very likely criminal.”
This is where Chait’s column turns into word salad — perhaps demonstrating that Trump was right about his literacy. First, there’s this bit about timing.
[T]he timing of the court’s ruling makes it more imperative that its reasoning be unassailable. And the conclusion that Trump’s attempt to secure an unelected second term was “insurrection” isn’t solid enough to bear the weight of the outcome it supports.
To deny the voters the chance to elect the candidate of their choice is a Rubicon-crossing event for the judiciary. It would be seen forever by tens of millions of Americans as a negation of democracy. It is not enough that their belief is plausibly wrong or likely wrong. It must be incontrovertibly wrong to support such a momentous step.
Chait argues that the Colorado ruling — the one he has excused himself from addressing, one he seems to believe he is incompetent to address — “isn’t solid enough” for kicking Trump off the ballot. But this bit seems to confuse who is wrong.
It is not enough that their belief is plausibly wrong or likely wrong. It must be incontrovertibly wrong to support such a momentous step.
Is he talking about the Colorado Supreme Court? Wouldn’t he then mean their decision must be “incontrovertibly right,” not wrong, to support booting Trump off the ballot?
It’s an important distinction, because how we adjudicate things to be incontrovertibly right in the US is a legal issue.
Even before he gets there, though, Chait spews some other word salad.
The timing of this decision is important context to its democratic legitimacy. If this ruling had come a year earlier, the Republican Party would have had time to organize a campaign built on the assumption Trump would be ineligible. But a month away from the first primary is late to change the rules of the game.
I am not arguing the timing rules out legal intervention. Trump is obviously facing several potentially adverse legal rulings. But most of those crimes are unambiguous, and the timing was determined by Trump himself, who deliberately set out to drag out the legal process as long as possible, specifically in order to force the rulings into the presidential campaign so that he could call it illegitimate.
First the substance, best as I understand it. Chait says that the timing of kicking Trump off the ballot is the problem here, but then admits that Trump himself has “drag[ged] out” “potentially adverse legal rulings,” so “he could call [the legal process] illegitimate.”
So far, I think this means that Chait says decisions have to appear fair for people who want to vote for Trump. He admits Trump is stalling … something … so as to be able to make false claims about that something to be unfair. Chait doesn’t weigh the equity of Trump’s stall against the interests of those who want to vote for Trump.
Chait only considers the interests of those who want to vote for Trump, not the interests of those who want to uphold rule of law, including the Constitution and the premise that the legal opinions of duly appointed judges who are competent to weigh in should probably carry more weight than the equivocations of a guy who confesses he’s not competent to do so.
And I can’t really be sure because Chait gets awfully vague when he talks about those things that Trump is dragging out: the potentially adverse legal decisions. But I think those things are trials. Including his federal trial on charges tied to January 6. I think that Chait is admitting here that Trump is dragging out the trial that would subject Trump’s actions on January 6 to a jury of American citizens, even while arguing that it’s not fair to people who want to vote for Trump to boot him from the ballot just before the primary.
He may not realize it, but if I’m translating this word salad correctly, Chait has just admitted the problem here: that Trump himself has stalled the best way to decide whether he should be disqualified from running, a far better way than having Colorado judges decide: A trial.
In an ideal world, SCOTUS, with the assistance of the DC Circuit, could resolve this issue in the most just way: Forestall any decision on the Colorado decision (Trump will be on the primary ballot as soon as he appeals the decision, so any delay will do nothing to change the status quo), but ensure that a January 6 trial happens before general election ballots are printed.
The just legal thing would be to prevent Trump from holding up criminal legal accountability while he also claims he can’t be legally accountable via other means. And heck, if SCOTUS believes they’re going to rewrite the 18 USC 1512(c)(2) statute with which Trump and hundreds of other January 6ers have been charged, they should do that quickly, too, so Jack Smith can supersede Trump, formally, with insurrection, so a jury of American citizens can weigh in on the question of whether January 6 was an insurrection or not.
The smart political stance — since Chait disclaims any competence to weigh in on legal issues — would be to deprive Trump and his supporters of claiming there’s a problem with the timing of Colorado’s action while Trump at the same time is depriving not just Trump opponents, but even Republican primary voters who should get to know whether their favorite candidate is even eligible to be President before they vote in the primary, of the most legitimate means to decide this issue, a trial.
Having Trump’s eligibility be determined state-by-state, by duly appointed judges, is less than ideal. I agree that Trump supporters would hate that.
But that makes the better way of determining his eligibility, a trial, all the more important.
I don’t care who you are, whether you’re competent to weigh in on the legal opinion or not, whether you’re illiterate or not. If you believe Trump’s eligibility should not be decided by unelected judges, then the only defensible position — Republican or Democrat, literate or no — is to ensure that Trump stands trial before general election ballots get printed, so a jury can weigh in on Trump’s actions on January 6.
Ensuring that happens is absolutely among the choices the Supreme Court faces. Making that choice clear is a far smarter political choice than whatever it is that Chait engaged in.
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From the Colorado District Court opinion:
“233. The Court finds that an ‘insurrection’ at the time of ratification of the
Fourteenth Amendment was understood to refer to any public use of force or threat of
force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the execution of law.”
The Colorado Supreme Court appears to have incorporated this definition in its opinion.
The Colorado Supreme Court is full of it.
I see you stand with Chait, in the belief that your opinion matters more than duly appointed Judges applying election law in the states which are by law empowered with administering elections.
Chait? I have no idea in the world what Chait said or thinks. I do see, however, that your Michigan Supreme Court found different. As has Arizona’s, and every other Supreme Court except Colorado. That is where I stand.
Well, THIS POST is not about your belief that all state law is the same.
It’s about Chait.
Well, my position has consistently been that such is the problem with garbage county level civil cases determining who can run for president in a national election.
I have to go down to Maricopa County superior court in the next couple of days. Should I, as a random citizen, be able to file a common county level complaint that could determine the national election for President? That is absurd.
Something ELSE entirely off point.
Election law is different in all 50 states. Federal elections reserve to states the administration of elections.
The CO suit ADDRESSED why it was filed where it was. AND ALSO NOTED that this worked just like all similar challenges, which are fairly routine.
Again, something that the judges paid to do this addressed.
No, it is exactly the point.
You keep saying that as though it actually addresses the substance of the point everyone keeps making against you.
Pending the table is all he’s got left.
I think bmaz has a point
Separately, I just realized something. If SCOTUS allows the ruling to stand, the same process could be applied to sitting members of Congress, who’s offices happen to be explicitly cited in the amendment. They don’t even have to go through the tedious process of indictment by grand jury and trial by peers. All that needs to happen is a civil trial before a sympathetic court.
His point is that Colorado is “interfering in a national election”, but the problem with that is they aren’t. They are “interfering” in the Colorado process of selecting Electors to vote in the Electoral College and nothing more.
And yes, other politicians could be charged the same way, the prosecution just needs to prove they engaged in insurrection, not as low a bar as you might think.
Electoral College votes in a Federal election. Ever wonder why the 14th explicitly prohibits the appointment of Presidential Electors and not the Federal offices they vote for?
Colorado voters decided not to long ago to join in the Popular Vote Compact joining 17 other states pushing for the winner be elected by the country’s popular vote getter. They voted to give all their electors to that winner. Wasn’t the Electoral College created as a stop gap measure in case a traitor like person got elected to office by the people accidentally/on purpose?
That was in process with Rep. Madison Cawthorn — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Cawthorn#14th_Amendment_challenge — but it was mooted when he lost his primary race. Congress could also simply refuse to seat a challenged person under the 14th Amendment, as occurred a couple of times in the 1800s.
Very unlikely Cawthorn would have been disqualified to take his seat, even when democrats controlled the House (Pelosi was too smart for that), they would have gone after a couple other seats in 2020 (MTG comes to mind but she and Cawthorn were not alone).
Absolutely! I plan to challenge Ted Cruz’s eligibility for the U.S. Senate if either the CO ruling is upheld or Trump is convicted in the Jan 6 case.
Cruz openly conspired with Trump in the insurrection. According to Texas law, the appropriate venue for challenging a candidate’s eligibility for a statewide office (after the Secretary of State rejects the challenge, which I take as a given), is a state district court. That’s the way the system works.
Remind me before you do that bc Teddy Cancun was consorting with a whole bunch of insurrectionists post-insurrection.
Silly rabbit! Don’t you know that Canadian Cancun Cruz is not eligible to be president anyway!
I’m surprised the process hasn’t started against Scott Perry yet.
It has been used, and upheld, against a NM politician already (tho he was admittedly convicted).
Actually there’s yet another problem, which is that the Colorado Republican primary is an *intra-party* process whose actual purpose is to select delegates for the Republican National Convention. The ultimate authority for how this process works is the Colorado State GOP which adopts a Delegate Selection Plan. The state conducts the primary election as a courtesy/service to the party. The state cannot dictate rules to the party or otherwise force it to use the primary results for any particular purpose (violates Freedom of Association — WA state has had a presidential primary since the 1980s but up until 2020 it was ignored by the state Democratic Party and played no role in delegate selection).
The Republican National Convention has leverage in that if a state DSP is not approved by the RNC, or the approved DSP isn’t followed properly, then the convention can refuse to seat the delegates that were selected.
While the state may have the authority to refuse to run a primary that has Trump’s name on the ballot (this would depend on the legislation that enables the state to run a primary election), the state party can simply respond by amending its DSP (e.g., to just send a slate of Trump delegates, ignore the primary entirely, and call it a day) and the RNC will probably approve since it’s allowed other states to do just that (i.e.,effectively cancel their primaries.and declare Trump their preferred nominee in advance).
Which will be an interesting point for the SCOTUS appeal, especially if only the GOP appeals (tho Trump reportedly will appeal too).
That’s part of the reason why MI ruled this is not ripe yet.
I’m not certain this will ever be ripe under Michigan election law. After combing through this,
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-act-116-of-1954.pdf
I think this is a major flaw in Michigan’s law that there is no pointed specification for candidates in primary as well as general election to have qualified under Fourteenth Amendment, leaving it instead in the hands of parties to disqualify candidates.
Michigan election law does make reference to the Fourteenth Amendment but in relation to other issues of qualification (see pg. 156, 168.560a General election ballot; listing political party and name; qualification, reference to Constitutionality).
Can only hope the current schism in the party in which a faction has resisted MIGOP chair Karamo by prevent quorums at party meetings may also prevent Trump from being qualified. Chances are better IMO than MI supreme court deciding against his appearance on general election ballot when this circumstances are ripe.
All these suits have (or will) end up in the highest state appellate court, which is the right venue to determine state election law.
Regardless of whether they’re garbage, these suits were going to happen, and CO IMO is doing the country a public service by getting the federal questions to SCOTUS sooner rather than later.
The lede on this timely and cogent piece by Marcy Wheeler (the reason people come to and support this website:
“ JONATHAN CHAIT’S RUBE-CON LETS SCOTUS OFF EASY”
[caps original]
Reading beyond the lede would also have provided illumination.
Why would Michigan’s opinion about their own state laws be relevant to the Colorado court?
Do we have a federal system or not?
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Mozambique must not have an equivalent to the Fourteenth Amendment; their flag includes the image of a Kalashnikov rifle with a bayonet attached to the barrel.
This raises the proper question, at least to my mind: “Trump at the same time is depriving not just Trump opponents, but even Republican primary voters who should get to know whether their favorite candidate is even eligible to be President before they vote in the primary”
14A -3 speaks of eligibility to take office, not to be on the ballot.
The CO Supreme Court ruling addressed this as well. If you are not eligible to hold the office then it is a disservice to the voters to have your name cluttering up the ballot. (Paraphrase)
Appearance on the ballot is a matter of state law. The CO argument is that under state law they have an obligation to not list ineligible candidates. This wouldn’t be controversial if the candidate were Arnold Schwarzenegger (not native citizen) or Madison Cawthorn (too young).
Other states may decide differently, it depends (at least partly) on the legal role of the political parties in putting forward candidates. The legalities may be different in the general election, so some states like MI are declining to intervene now but reserving the possibility of doing so in the general, and CO is effectively doing so by letting Trump suspend any delisting in the primary simply by appealing the decision to SCOTUS. The CO court effectively set this up to give SCOTUS the opportunity to resolve the issue sooner rather than later.
As the CO Supreme Court pointed out, none other than Neil Gorsuch wrote the federal appeals court opinion that supports the idea that states can refuse to put ineligible candidates for President! on the ballot. I’m not sure why some folks around here find this such an appalling idea. As Gorsuch put it:
Random thought: SCOTUS super-majority may prefer to put this off, so they can issue some bogus rationale and they invoke Purcell for anything afterwards.
This doesn’t seem like something they can Purcell their way out of, as much as I’m sure they’d dearly like to. At some point they have to reach the merits (theoretically), and at that point, if he’s ineligible, then he’s ineligible. There’s nothing in the amendment to suggest ineligibility is cured by sneaking through in an election.
At the end of the day, they are the *Supreme* Court, so they can technically finagle this however they want. They can invent a Purcell-like “oops too late” style rule if they really want to duck the merits. But it’d be invented out of whole cloth.
The alternative would be what? To allow him to win election in November and then not permit him to be sworn in?
“14A -3 speaks of eligibility to take office, not to be on the ballot.”
Do state and local elections regularly list candidates ineligible for the offices they are running for?
I mean – this isn’t a remotely serious argument.
IMO, 14A-3 should be incorporated with the other eligibility requirements. That should have been done when it was written, but maybe they thought It Won’t Happen Again.
I note that Trump has repeatedly argued in his double jeopardy arguments re the DC proceedings:
1 the conduct alleged in the DC indictment is the same or substantially the same as the Article of Impeachment
And 2 the acquittal at the Impeachment trial before the Senate, applying principles of double jeopardy, operates as a bar to criminal trial on the same or substantially the same conduct as set out in the DC indictment.
As to 2: this is an absurd reading of the Impeachment Judgement Clause.
However, as to 1, bearing in mind the Article explicitly refers to 14 Amendment s3, Trump’s argument expressly concedes that the conduct alleged in the indictment, should he be convicted upon it, would satisfy the disabling conduct element of 14A s3
Right: If there were to be an opinion rejecting both prongs of his immunity argument in their entirety (acknowledging that the absolute immunity might first come back to say that nothing alleged is within his official duties), then Jack Smith could supersede on insurrection.
I don’t know if concerns about double jeopardy are why he didn’t charge. At first I thought that’d pose too many difficulties to the prosecution. But now, especially if SCOTUS were to constrain applicability to 1512, I’m not so sure Smith isn’t getting there anyway.
“And 2 the acquittal at the Impeachment trial before the Senate, applying principles of double jeopardy, operates as a bar to criminal trial on the same or substantially the same conduct as set out in the DC indictment.”
Whoever makes such a legal argument should be disbarred. Impeachment and criminal trials are completely separate proceedings. This is a nakedly bad faith argument.
Trump lawyers seem to have a propensity towards making arguments on his behalf which do not bear scrutiny, yet make them •nevertheless• *
[* the operative word in the Impeachment Judgment Clause, as explained by Judge Chutkan]
I hope Chait would also be offended if Arnold Schwarzenegger were denied the right to serve as President, or Obama, I guess, if it turned out he was born in Nigeria. People keep approaching this as if it is a question of policy. It is not. It is solely a question of interpretating the Constitution. And the Constitution doesn’t care about your feelings. There is a fair debate to be had whether the 14th Amendment bars Trump from being President. But concerns that applying the 14th Amendment might impede the voters’ right to select the candidate of their choice are irrelevant here.
There are legitimately other questions here–one reason states are coming up with different rulings is bc state election law, especially as it pertains to what primaries are, is different.
One point CO made is that they deal with challenges like this all the time, and that’s how this one was dealt with.
Oh, I certainly agree. Frankly, I think Michigan probably has it right. There are many tough interpretive questions impacting both the process and the ultimate outcome.
Whether they do or not, unless SCOTUS intervenes, then that’s what will end up holding the day.
Again, I’d prefer he get a trial before anything happens. But there’ll be another round of litigation after the primaries. If I were a Republican I’d want certainty before then, but Trump wants to ensure the party is stuck with him.
Agreed. But I’ll admit that I can no longer define what it means to be a Republican, so I dare not try to discern their wishes.
BTW, not news to anyone here, but you’re fantastic at this and your work is hugely important.
Putting aside any differences of opinion on whether this should be a state or federal issue and venue, the following article gives a well reasoned argument for maintaining civil liability independent of and regardless of whether or not there is criminal liability:
“Why Section 3 Disqualification Doesn’t Require a Prior Criminal Conviction on Charges of Insurrection” – Ilya Somin, 12/26/23
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/26/why-section-3-disqualifications-doesnt-require-a-prior-conviction-on-criminal-charges-of-insurrection/
I was just going to mention this article. It made the distinction of civil liability and penalties clear. Is “insurrection” really a civil offense? Again, thank you MW for discussing this.
High Crimes and Misdemeanours encompass all sorts of egregious conduct which might be both:
triable as political offences and resulting in civil penalties of removal from office and barring from office
and triable as criminal offences resulting in criminal penalties.
14Amendment s3 is a civil penalty
Moreover the criminal offence 18 USC 2383 ( insurrection, rebellion etc) adds a bar from office as a penalty on conviction in addition to the 10 year maximum prison sentence.
However that bar applies to all convicted of the offence.
Whereas 14 A s3 particularly a bar to oath breaking former officers . Thus there is good reason to consider that s2383 is not intended to be the only means of giving effect to 14 A s3
Eligibility to be on a state ballot generally is a civil matter, not a criminal hearing. One can certainly argue whether someone is being deprived of their right to “a fair trial” if they are being prevented from appearing on a ballot without an actual conviction for felony insurrectioning. The problem is that, in a civil proceeding, the requirement for evidence for a presumption of ineligibility is a less stringent standard, only requiring a preponderance of the evidence point towards ineligibility. Further, state secretaries of state and all the election and clerical persons below them in each states respective official election apparatus, make administrative and civil decisions about who is eligible to appear on ballots, who is eligible to vote, etc, each and every day. Unless the state law explicitly requires proof of conviction of a serious crime the decision on what level of proof is required to be eligible falls upon the state administrators of elections, and from there, directly to state court civil proceedings where there are objections filed by plaintiffs who believe they have unjustly been administratively excluded in participating in a given election.
“I’m not a scientist, so I can’t judge whether this candidate for mayor who was found squashed under an anvil should have been declared a dead coyote by a coroner and a wildlife biologist and then disqualified under a city law saying candidates must be a living person to be elected. But I feel very strongly that taking away the rights of the electorate to choose Wile E. Coyote is a negation of democracy.”
Beep-Beep……..
In case it’s of interest, Lawfare has created a litigation tracker for the 14th Amendment cases against Trump in various states: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/current-projects/the-trump-trials/section-3-litigation-tracker
Oh, shit, I didn’t realize Maine had also successfully(?) challenged his eligibility. Thanks for the link!
That ruling just happened today. It’s stayed until Maine’s Superior Court rules on any appeal, and presumably that will also be appealed to SCOTUS.
Yes, Maine has joined CO as an armpit of legal garbage. This is some of the biggest bullshit in human history. At least as to election law.
Chait’s argument is the same argument made by Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post. It boils down to bromides about letting the people decide and thinking that only a resounding defeat at the polls will banish Trump and Trumpism.
But how can the people make good decisions with an effective daily deluge of Trump propaganda coupled with endless delays by Trump of his criminal trials, which could provide an antidote to the propaganda? Are Trump’s delays anti-democratic?
People would have voted for Arnold Schwartzenegger for President but for the Constitutional citizenship requirements. I don’t remember people complaining about how undemocratic that was.
Personally, it bothers me that a state court could make a finding with such Constitutional import. I wonder if the Supremes could rule that only federal courts can determine whether someone has committed insurrection against the federal government.
That’s sort of my point: If you believe THAT, then you should believe that Trump’s immunity claims must be dispensed with quickly, so a court actually CAN weigh in.
Chait and Marcus should write columns about how undemocratic Trump’s delay games and disinformation campaign are. Their planting the flag on this hill seems superficial.
Sort of the point of this post.
I’m pretty sure they can’t make that ruling. Art. 2 § 2 says Colorado is in charge of the selection of its electors, who are appointed “.. in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct …”. It’s these electors who elect the president.
But there are federal Constitutional questions and it involves a federal office.
Indeed. Basically, the main question appears to be what the criteria is to assume that someone has been involved in insurrection sufficiently to prohibit them from taking political or governmental office.
Beyond that, there is the additional issue of whether one state may deprive its own citizens the ability to vote for a candidate that is appearing on the ballot in other states. The Constitution is mostly a priori on how this all should balance out, especially given some of the Amendments that appear to give individuals equal protection, freedom of speech and association, etc. One thing that is not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution is and explicit right to appear on a state ballot, hence many open questions during this season of litigation over Trump’s ability to appear on individual state ballots that he would he would otherwise quality for were it not for his insurrectioneering.
We don’t need to wait for another trial much less a criminal conviction re January 6. Criminal insurrection is not the standard.
The issue is “insurrection” under the 14th Amendment. The trial court held a five day trial on that question, both sides presented argument and evidence, the issue was adjudicated, and the ruling upheld.
Finally, on this “will of the people/voters” argument. The Constitution is the law of the land and the ultimate expression of self-rule. Thus, _failing_ to enforce the 14th Amendment is a far more grave usurpation of power.
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So what I’m hearing here is that this piece by Chait essentially argues that political considerations outweigh constitutional merit?
That sort of makes him the anti-J. Michael Luttig on this issue, who seems happy to address the media but steadfastly refuses to answer questions or offer opinions regarding the political ramifications of what COSC did or what SCOTUS might do.
JML’s belief that the COSC opinion is a no-brainer application of the 14th might be spectacularly wrong, but I don’t think you need to be a judge, attorney, or constitutional scholar to understand the critical importance that these considerations must necessarily be blind to the politics.
The media closely examines each of Trump’s seemingly disqualifying acts to see if this time he has finally gone too far. And then they let him off the hook.
If the US Constitution isn’t sufficient to disqualify Donald Trump, then what is the point of debating his behavior at all? For that matter, why bother discussing any politician’s moral and ethical lapses, or that of their family members? Fitness for office should no longer be considered for any candidate if it does not apply for Donald Trump.
Is there a compelling reason why you feel you need to make the case for the GOP and MAGA Trumpers in this thread?
Slow the fuck down and rethink how you could phrase your critique of media so as not to help them fuck up further by making a case for Trump.
¿umopsid^
I read your comment in totally the converse of Rayne. I don’t see this being in support of the GOP or any other group. Perhaps I don’t read as well.
You seem to be arguing that there is a current within the media that keeps looking for ways to let The Donald be who he is; every time he exceeds his prior extremes, let’s just mark that as a new goalpost.
This, to me, is the problem with looking to the media as being anything other than a group of partisan proselytizers (opinionators?) rather than as bearers of any facts that can be rationally decided by the readers.
We, as avid news consumers, may start to lose our own independence of thought because of these fire-hoses of news/propaganda/spiels/opinions.
I think some in the news media want to appear fair and balanced and maintain the possibility of special access to the powerful.
So they write insipid columns, wringing their hands over the blow to democracy caused by the Colorado Supreme Court without discussing the possibility that removing an insurrectionist from the ballot might be democracy enhancing. Even if they don’t want to get into the legal weeds, they could add to the discussion by talking about the history of the provision instead of just wringing their hands about this blow to democracy and ignoring Trump’s anti-democracy essence.
I certainly wasn’t siding with any MAGA element. Thank you for understanding my point.
I guess my age is catching up with me when it comes to the press. I never could have envisioned a situation where the media would allow a candidate with 91 pending criminal charges, a sexual assault judgement, and a massive business fraud decision, to be a viable option for the presidency, much less the runaway favorite for a party’s nomination after a failed coup attempt.
It is mind-numbing for this child of WWII parents who lived through the Cold War and was forced to learn about America’s role defending against fascist and authoritarian regimes.
It is not “the press” that is “allowing” this though.
This is an issue about dilution of a vigorous press pro-democracy, not a reason to stop supporting the press.
Sophists, perhaps? Although I’m not sure I’d call popular coverage of Trump clever *or* well reasoned
I have thought that Wilkes-and-liberty established the concept that the people are entitled to be represented by who they want, no matter how distasteful to the feelings of the better sort (at lest in constitutional systems in the English tradition).
Except that in the USA, an exception was written in after bitter experience for those who wish to overthrow the gummint.
I can imagine a method of overthrowing the gummint without engaging in insurrection (by bribing a sufficient number of members of Congress or the courts), and I imagine that overthrowing te gummint was probably the idea behind the 14th, whether it made it into the wording or not.
Arguing about whether one kind of overthrow rises to insurrection does seem a flaw.
This would still be a coup, and frankly, it is not clear how secret an activity would have to be before it would not be considered a conspiracy of sedition or conspiracy for insurrection.
“Mom always like you best.” RIP Tom Smothers.
His and younger brother, Dick’s, CBS TV show was so popular at the height of the Vietnam war, and their political humor was so sharp, that Dick Nixon pressured CBS to fire them. It did. He also spent years trying to deport John Lennon. He didn’t. That would be Donald Trump’s starting point.
https://apnews.com/article/6e2df9337df04d459f66d519d1daa5aa
https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/history-lesson-failed-after-smothers-brothers/
Thanks, EOH. A very funny man and a great introducer of talent (e.g. Goldie Hawn) to a mass audience.
My parents were as anti-war as most middle class suburbanites with teenage boys back then, but I don’t recall them watching the Smothers Bros. regularly. Goldie Hawn on Laugh-In, you bet your sweet bippy.
I loved the Smothers Brothers. I might even still have this LP, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH0IZZRd0bI
“Chocolate”
We had one of their albums (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Ethnic ), but not that one.
Tom singing about eight bars…
Yes, yes, let Marcy bounce anything that does not cow tow to her view of Constitutional law. Personally, I thought this was above that. Boy was I wrong.
Why do you keep insisting the Colorado court is “interfering in a national election”? Colorado is in charge of the process of selecting Electors to send to the Electoral College. Where does “national” come in?
Well, never think I said that. Where it “comes in” is right here. Marcy will not allow me to talk about it though. Hard to describe further.
Probably the next move will be to ban me because I think, like most states so far, that Colorado is an outlier.
Bmaz,
If your view is to prevail, you need to explain how 5 states kept James Garfield off their presidential ballot in the election of 1892, apparently just because they didn’t want him there. I’m really curious as to how the Consititution, and federal election law, didn’t trump state election law in Garfield’s case.
And how Alabama has done so 3 times (Lincoln, Truman and LBJ were not on AL’s presidential ballot).
Perhaps the fact that Garfield was dead in 1892 might have something to do with it. He was shot in 1882.
I doubt that there were very many people brave enough to serve as Lincoln electors in Alabama in 1860. Since the Republican party was new and opposed the extension of slavery, it had no organized presence throughout the South. Lincoln’s name didn’t appear on any ballot on any of the states that seceded after his election.
Ooops!
It was Grover Cleveland that 5 states refused to place on the ballot.
Sorry about that.= lol
But the election laws in those states allowed them to do that. And Alabama has the ability to keep national candidates off the ballot, it appears.
Why hasn’t this been a ‘really big deal’ before now? None of these candidates were accused of being ‘insurrectionists’.
The reason why democrats didn’t run a slate in those states was because they were much weaker politically than republicans, so they joined forces with the third party to take those EC votes away from the Republican candidate incumbent President Benjamin Harrison. Cleveland didn’t have a prayer and Harrison would have picked up those states had they entered the fray.
The history here is illustrative of a time in the US where whether a candidate appeared on all 50 ballots or not was less important than whether or not that candidate could get the electoral college votes. Now it seems that that there’s a lot of whinging about how unfair a state is being to a candidate and their potential voters. This is not that odd though since it appears that the supremacy of individual rights of a voter to vote for whomever electors they want to must be catered to by each and every state in the Union?
“ how 5 states kept James Garfield off their presidential ballot in the election of 1892”
Garfield was assassinated and died 6 months after taking the oath of office in 1881.
Grover Cleveland was the Democrat who ran for president in 1892, you might also note that Weaver, the Populist (People’s party) candidate won all the EC vote in 4 of those 5 (except North Dakota which gave a single EC vote of the 3 available to Cleveland, Harrison and Weaver), the Populists were closely aligned with the state democratic parties.
BMAZ, like most EW readers, I appreciate your legal input and the time you invest in moderating this site but sometimes your opinions can go far beyond being snarky/witty to something much meaner and inappropriate. There are two simple rules I’d like to think if we all followed, could help make the world a better place:
Rule #1- Don’t be a )!@%
Rule #2- When in doubt, see Rule #1
I think there are ways for you to contribute your legal expertise and opinions without breaking Rule #1 that would keep you out of MW’s doghouse and not upset many of us readers. Before you post, ask yourself if you’re breaking Rule #1. If you’re not sure, double-check via Rule #2.
Hope this helps.
[Moderator’s note: This is NOT helpful. It is a form of policing which may not only be inflammatory, but it is off topic and chews up 124 words worth of space in this thread which other readers will need to scroll by to get to relevant comments. See Rule #1. /~Rayne]
I demand that Trump stands trial before general election ballots get printed. If this demand isn’t met, I have no problem saying that my civil liberties as a voter have been violated. As to whether they would’ve been just as violated if the Colorado Supreme Court had gone the other way, I have no idea. And I say this as a Colorado voter. That part’s too confusing, because although it’s constitutional law, I don’t really know what competing constitutional laws might need to be factored in. The Supreme Court can decide. But for the trial, it’s unambiguous. We need it. Please get the appeals over with so that we can get on with the damn trial.
[Welcome back to emptywheel. Please use the same username and email address each time you comment so that community members get to know you. You attempted to publish this as “steverino” which has been edited this once to match your most recent username, “steverino_g.” /~Rayne]
Huh? Your not deprived of anything just because someone you don’t like appears on a ballot. Maybe there should be a Constitutional amendment passed to rectify that…but be careful what you wish for.
As noted above, soon after breaching the Capitol, the mob reached the House and Senate chambers, where the certification process was ongoing. Id. This breach caused both the House and the Senate to adjourn, halting the electoral certification process. In addition, much of the mob’s ire—which included threats of physical violence—was directed at Vice President Pence, who, in his role as President of the Senate, was constitutionally tasked with carrying out the electoral count.
This framing bothers me. It leaves out that the mob caused more than an adjournment of an official proceeding, the mob was a violent threat already committing violence, that forced the entire Congress and Vice President to retreat to the safety of defensible positions.
FWIW, some members of Congress and staffers were stuck in the House balcony, unable to evacuate. This is one of the reasons that the breach of the door to the Speaker’s Lobby was seen as a significant threat.
I do indeed demand that Trump stands trial before general election ballots get printed. I have no problem saying that my civil rights as a voter will have been violated if the criminal trial doesn’t happen in a timely fashion. Yes I’m a Colorado voter, and I get that Colorado’s decision is about a constitutional law, but there may be competing constitutional laws. Don’t know. The Supreme Court can decide that one. But gimme my dang criminal trial, and give it to me on time. That part should be unambiguous. We should all be demanding this instead of hyperfocusing on the Colorado question.
I would respond to a lot of comments, but Marcy has specifically denied me the ability to do so. Totally the full discussion this forum contemplates.
Almost any time is a good time to enjoy the beauty of Sabino Canyon.
That is very true, although two hours away.
I suggest everyone take a deep breath. Besides, even if Trump is denied representation on the primary ballot, that does not mean that the Republican Presidential Elector candidates can be, since Colorado state law states:
“ 1-4-302. Party nominations to be made by convention. (1) Any convention of delegates of a political party or any committee authorized by resolution of the convention may nominate presidential electors.”
Which means the GOP doesn’t even have to hold a primary and the state can’t remove his name from appearing on the general election ballot (which is really for the party convention nominated presidential electors).
Kind of stinks to get censored, doesn’t it?
Consider doing a separate post where you outline your argument and justifications for it.
This. Very few participants in this forum have the ability to create an article with content here. Use thy pulpit. Provide a link to your comprehensive article in other discussions. It’s been done before.
I really want you to have the ability to say whatever you want without restrictions, and hate to see you constrained. How about starting your own blog, where no one could tell you what you can or cannot say? And I’m sure lots of readers would love to follow one of the smartest lawyers in the universe.
“Let Us Cultivate Our Garden: The Writings Of bmaz”
Bmaz is an integral member of this blog. He is currently having an opinion spat with Marcy Wheeler. As with many families those spats aren’t always resolved to anyone’s satisfaction. This one probably won’t be. Interesting to listen to the arguments, though. Hope they maintain their friendship.
I’m really new here, so my opinion holds less weight than a grain of salt, but I do really appreciate the spirited debates and discussions in the comments (even if they can and do get argumentative). I don’t always agree with the positions, but they do force me to challenge and clarify my own opinions, and I really appreciate that fact.
“I don’t care who you are, whether you’re competent to weigh in on the legal opinion or not, whether you’re illiterate or not. If you believe Trump’s eligibility should not be decided by unelected judges, then the only defensible position — Republican or Democrat, literate or no — is to ensure that Trump stands trial before general election ballots get printed, so a jury can weigh in on Trump’s actions on January 6.”
Yeah, but, and here is the thing, there is no way on god’s green earth that Trump’s Jan. 6 trial will be finished or likely even start before that time.
Shoot, as much as I despise the man and feel it is self-evident he should not be allowed to be president, realize that there are distinct problems with him receiving a fair trial within say the next 6 to 9 months. There are unique legal issues that have to be resolved, there are evidentiary issues, there will be jury selection issues. OJs simple murder trial took nearly a year.
No, this thing you propose as a solution is not a solution. Not that you haven’t a point about a court finding Trump guilty would be ideal, I just don’t see it realistic.
FPOTUS has a right to a speedy trial. He also has the right to delay and distract.
The fact that he has chosen the latter should have no bearing on the timing of this trial, election, or no election.
Found pressed in an early 1800’s version of the Federalist papers, in Thomas Jefferson’s library was a slip of paper with the following jotted upon it:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that Donald J. Trump attempted to overthrow the government of the United States of America, that he was underendowed by his Creator with certain unattractive traits, that among these are Greed, Gluttony and by all accounts-odiferousness.–That in an attempt to secure an office that he did not win by election, Trump instituted among Men, a great lie at direct conflict with the consent of the governed, –So whenever any Form of Tyranny becomes destructive of democracy, it is the Right of the People to say “Stop right there Mister!”, and to say “No Soup For YOU!” Soup being elected office, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to actually keep a self-proclaimed dictator from taking over our government and plunging us into fascism. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that we take all possible measures to assure that an immoral, insufferable, criminal, obvious conman, court adjudicated fraud and sexual predator from holding the highest office in the land. Now it is true that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a unique and bilious threat emerges that will literally terminate the constitution out (that being his stated aim), doing nothing will have the same Object to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such putrid liars, and to provide new Guards for the future security of our nation.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these American citizens; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former election laws. The history of the present Shit Gibbon King of Mar a Lardo is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.”
Best narrative I’ve seen from the Colorado Supreme Court decision debate:
“The Fourteenth Amendment is the crown jewel of our antiquated Constitution, purchased with much blood and treasure—more than Americans of any other generation have been asked to sacrifice. The authors of Section Three were deadly serious in their determination to keep the government out of the hands of traitors and rebels.” Epps from the Washington Monthly
Agreed. This is a must-read.
“And lurking in the background of this “bad consequences” argument is the besetting political blasphemy of our time—that law is for little people. It must never prevail against massed wealth or ruthless political power. […] This horror at the very idea of bringing power to account is part of a rot spreading across society as inequality becomes more and more not simply the American norm but the central value of American life.”
Thanks to both for pointing me in the direction of the Epps piece, which is well worth a read, IMHO
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2023/12/26/the-wrong-reasons-to-keep-trump-on-the-ballot/
The substantive aspects of the CO case are fascinating (sadly, from a timing perspective).
How about some insight/views on the procedural aspects? For example, is DOJ automatically a party to the possible USSCt appeal, or do they have a choice about intervention? If involved, how does DOJ decide what their position is on the issues, and specifically, is Biden involved? Back to substance, what position should they take?
While I strongly prefer Marcy’s position of a trial sooner rather than later, another remedy Republicans could use is already written into Section 3 of Amendment 14 — How often do we have to hear ‘the text means what it says?…’
I’m guessing that in the end, Trump never leaves the CO ballot. The real schadenfreude of this case is watching ‘originalists’ and ‘states’ rights’ conservatives twist themselves into pretzels rationalizing their firmly held beliefs away to make sure that happens.
I thought I saw a mention of MI somewhere above, but not sure I saw anybody mention that the Colorado Supreme Court itself pointed out that MI state law did not provide the same avenue for disqualification as CO (apologies if someone did). It is in footnote 10 (which I can’t seem to cut and paste in here).
“perhaps demonstrating that Trump was right about his literacy” lol—excellent.
[Welcome back to emptywheel. Please use the same username and email address each time you comment so that community members get to know you. You published this under what may be your RL name; it has been edited to match the username on your previous four comments. Please make a note of this as future mismatches may not clear moderation. Thanks. /~Rayne]
Colorado voters decided not to long ago to join in the Popular Vote Compact joining 17 other states pushing for the winner be elected by the country’s popular vote getter. They voted to give all their electors to that winner. Wasn’t the Electoral College created as a stop gap measure in case a traitor like person got elected to office by the people accidentally/on purpose?
The supreme court never took up challenges to election results, they were all denied. Yet he persists.
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/29/maine_joins_colorado_barring_trump_from
[Welcome back to emptywheel. Please use the same username and email address each time you comment so that community members get to know you. You have published comments here as dael, daelv, Daelv, and as dael Escher, the last of which complies with the site’s standard. Revert to that name or risk having your comments stuck in moderation. /~Rayne
–]Suppose in a given state, say CO, there is a 32-year-old who has styled herself a candidate for the presidency of the United States and she has become so popular that her party has gathered the requisite signatures and vowed to put her on the ballot in CO as its candidate. The party is fully aware that her age, as specified in the Constitution, disqualifies her from holding the office. Who has standing to challenge her being on the ballot and in what court can that person’s challenge be brought? Is it an aesthetic judgement that going to the county court house and filing a complaint is just petty and trivializing? Is it legal but somehow abusive to do so? At what level is it appropriate to start such an action? Is it obvious? Should it be obvious?