Protective Order: Who Is the Victim of Trump’s 18 USC 241 Charge?

Yesterday, one day after Magistrate Judge Moxila Upadhyaya warned Trump not to engage in witness tampering, he posted first a video claiming that the prosecutors who are prosecuting him — none of whom Joe Biden appointed — were Biden’s accomplices in an attempt to win the election. He followed that with a tweet threatening, “IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I’M COMING AFTER YOU!”

Shortly thereafter, two prosecutors who were career prosecutors in the Trump Administration before they came to report to Merrick Garland, Molly Gaston and Thomas Windom, filed a motion for a protective order. While the ostensible goal of the motion was to accelerate the process of sharing discovery in a way that won’t end up in a tweet somewhere, they did use it to alert Judge Tanya Chutkan of Trump’s tweet.

The Government’s proposed order is consistent with other such orders commonly used in this District and is not overly restrictive. It allows the defendant prompt and effective use of discovery materials in connection with his defense, including by showing discovery materials to witnesses who also agree to abide by the order’s terms. All the proposed order seeks to prevent is the improper dissemination or use of discovery materials, including to the public. Such a restriction is particularly important in this case because the defendant has previously issued public statements on social media regarding witnesses, judges, attorneys, and others associated with legal matters pending against him. And in recent days, regarding this case, the defendant has issued multiple posts—either specifically or by implication—including the following, which the defendant posted just hours ago:

If the defendant were to begin issuing public posts using details—or, for example, grand jury transcripts—obtained in discovery here, it could have a harmful chilling effect on witnesses or adversely affect the fair administration of justice in this case. See Gentile v. State Bar of Nevada, 501 U.S. 1030, 1070 (1991) (“The outcome of a criminal trial is to be decided by impartial jurors, who know as little as possible of the case, based on material admitted into evidence before them in a court proceeding. Extrajudicial comments on, or discussion of, evidence which might never be admitted at trial . . . obviously threaten to undermine this basic tenet.”). [my emphasis]

As I predicted, Trump quickly claimed the threat was about RINOs — even the Koch Brothers! — not the prosecutors prosecuting him.

Contrary to the claims of Trump and dozens of lawyers who haven’t read the indictment, it’s really not about his First Amendment right to lie, which is undoubtedly why he’s staging an early attempt to make this about his ongoing First Amendment right to lie.

Whatever. As I’m writing this I keep thinking about the line from the indictment describing that Trump tweeted his implicit threat against Mike Pence during the riot at a moment his advisors left him alone in his Dining Room: “after advisors had left the Defendant alone in his dining room, the Defendant issued a Tweet intended to further delay and obstruct the certification.”

The actual substance of the debate over the protective order will be genuinely interesting. Trump is running for office and he is entitled to attack Biden — albeit not physically. The motion described that prosecutors had proposed a recent protective order issued by Carl Nichols, a Trump appointee.

It’s likely that Judge Chutkan will call a hearing to deal with extrajudicial statements, while the lawyers fight about the protective order.

The whole predictable attack made me think, though, about Joe Biden’s role in all this. While the implicit threat against Jack Smith certainly threatens, “the fair administration of justice in this case,” the other prosecutors are not parties here. And there were no known witnesses included in Trump’s attack. Contrary to what Trump said, Biden has had no role in all this (in fact he should enjoin Trump from claiming prosecutors he didn’t appoint are his “accomplices”).

Depending on how DOJ conceives the 18 USC 241 charges, he could be Trump’s victim.

DOJ didn’t really lay that out in the indictment — whose votes Trump attempted to leave uncounted. Probably, as a Michigan mail-in voter (and in the county where Trump actually lost the election!), I’m among those people. I assume Rayne and bmaz are too.

But is Biden the victim here, too?

It won’t affect the resolution of this particular spat. But it does raise interesting questions about the structure of any gag going forward.

Update: Chutkan is not ordering Trump to explain his tweet.

MINUTE ORDER as to DONALD J. TRUMP: It is hereby ORDERED that by 5:00 PM on August 7, 2023, Defendant shall file a response to the government’s [10] Motion for Protective Order, stating Defendant’s position on the Motion. If Defendant disagrees with any portion of the government’s proposed Protective Order, ECF No. 10-1, his response shall include a revised version of that Protective Order with any modifications in redline. 

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108 replies
  1. scroogemcduck says:

    Not a lawyer, but I think the country is the principal victim. The voters are also victims. Biden is a victim, but he’s down the list.

    By attempting to overturn the election, Trump was trying to steal the Presidency and all of the attached power. Yes, Biden would be deprived of his election to act as the rightful steward of that power, and is a victim, but the most significant injury would be suffered by everyone in the country and, as an attack on the Constitutional order, Trump’s conduct strikes directly at democracy and the rule of law.

  2. scroogemcduck says:

    In the UK, all of these statements would be treated as prejudicial to the case and subject to legal consequences for contempt of court.

    The price of the 1A is having liars lie about the case and obliquely threaten judges, prosecutors and witnesses for months before a jury is selected, I guess.

    • emptywheel says:

      I don’t know Chutkan’s work that well, but I would expect her to deal with Trump’s shit the same way Amy Berman Jackson did with Stone’s — an increasing set of responses that ended with his gagging. But we shall see.

      • Becker0313 says:

        Those were my thoughts as well. If I remember correctly she gave Stone numerous warnings prior to the Gag. Trump doesn’t have the discipline to stop himself and will push just as hard as Chutkan allows.

      • arteberry says:

        The purpose of the government’s urgent motion for protective order appears mostly driven by the need for speedy trial. As a matter of routine practice, a protective order is put in place before discovery proceeds. Here, the prosecution is using Trump’s new post as a hook, to expedite finalization of the pending protective order and avoid the delay already seen in the Florida case.

        In Florida, both sides are still arguing about what should be in the protective order. For the moment, Cannon has merely directed the sides to try to work it out themselves. She has set another hearing and, presumably, only then will she get involved in wrapping up the order. Granted, in Florida non-classified discovery (under an initial protective order) has been proceeding and the arguments in Ft. Pierce are about the handling of classified information, which tends to be a more complicated problem.

        But for reasons everyone understands, speed is of the essence in Washington D.C., and the prosecution there has leveraged Trump’s most recent rant to immediately get the contents of the otherwise needed and (in the government’s words) “standard” protective order before the court. Judge Chutkan, to her credit, immediately picked up on the government’s cue. Her minute order doesn’t ask for some explanation about what Trump’s post meant. Nor does she order a hearing to address what might be done to Trump if he goes further. Her minute order is just about the housekeeping that is needed right now, She orders Trump to respond in two days—and precisely—with a red-line proposed modification of the government’s draft protective order. That’s the way to do it. No general arguments from the parties about what should and shouldn’t be in an order. No judicial reactions like “I’ll let you figure it out yourselves.” Chutkan will just take the red-line and, from there, issue a final document. Promptly. We march on to the next step.

        Maybe it follows from Trump’s most recent glowering threat against someone (Biden? Voters? Legitimate electors? Prosecutors? Prospective witnesses? Judges? All of the above?) that Trump might also make use of the non-public discovery information he obtains to increase the impact of such threats or otherwise taint the jury pool. So, if the government’s proposed “standard” protective order now before the court also serves to lay down a marker against this potential Trump misconduct, fine. But note that Trump may make new threats against various people, or spin stories about potential witnesses, and do so without using any information obtained from discovery or implicating this particular protective order. And there will still be ways to deal with that.

      • William J Dyer says:

        A lot of his fans imagine Trump treating a United States District Judge in open court the same way he treated the moderators at his presidential debates.

        Which is funny to contemplate, in a sort of wistful way, because then he very definitely WOULD end up in shackles and a gag.

        But there is no scenario I consider realistic in which he doesn’t press against every limit, induce further limits, and end up being sanctioned in lesser ways than a literal gag — a complication and appellate risk that I’m sure Jack Smith’s team would rather avoid too.

    • Upisdown says:

      Trump is in a unique position because he knows that any action the government takes will win him more sympathy, donations, and votes. The victimizer will play the victim. He’ll push the envelope as far as he possibly can.

      • Joeff53 says:

        It cannot be known whether further actions by the government in pursuit of justice will improveTrump’s electoral position. There’s a ceiling here and it’s likely short of 50%. I haven’t seen anything suggesting a widespread perception of DOJ overreach.

        [FYI – fixed your email address typo. /~Rayne]

    • paulka123 says:

      This whole debate resides in the neighborhood of madness. What happens when and if a Trump supporter takes action against a judge or prosecutor or the DoJ or the FBI or one of the many named “enemies” of Trump like Ruby Freeman? You think this is a remote possibility? Shall I remind you all that after the subpoena was issued last August a Trump supporter attacked an FBI office? Shall I remind you of the death threats that Ruby Freeman, an ordinary American has had to live with since being named by Trump and Co-conspirator 1? Shall I remind you that just this past week the Senate Office building had to be cleared due to a call to the police of an active shooter?

      At what point do we stop ignoring the fact that these things are a result of Trump’s actions?
      At what point do we as a nation stop acting like these mafiosi style threats aren’t what they are-threats that have real life consequences?

      • Jack_06AUG2023_1324h says:

        Yes, and what about the guy who took a hammer to Paul Pelosi?

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      • tje.esq@23 says:

        But have we forgotten the result of when 45 posted 44’s home address online? Within short order, a yet-to-be-arrested-but-already-Identified J6er posted on Telegram: “We got these losers surrounded! See you in hell, Podesta’s and Obama’s.”

        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/after-trump-posted-what-he-said-was-obamas-address-an-armed-man-was-arrested-there-prosecutors-say

        Where was he located? A few houses down from Obama’s address posted online by Trump; parked there was his van full of explosives and guns. In a YouTube livestream the next day, he said ‘he was looking for “entrance points” and wanted to get a “good angle on a shot,” prosecutors stated in a detention memo after he was chased on foot and captured by Secret Service agents. A ‘shot’ of Obama did not mean taking a picture, of course.

        Besides being the proximate cause of an assassination plot developing against his predecessor (the guy asserted on his YouTube livestream’ to be on a “one-way mission” to ‘blow up the National Institute of Standards and Technology’ in Maryland, acc to PBS) Donald Trump’s post also threatened the lives of Obama’s Secret Service detail. Is it possible a member of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago detail would have the guts to tell Trump not to target their brethren? Trump could have ended up losing an agent previously on Trump’s detail that he was friendly with (altho, I’m not really sure how USSS personnel are assigned and rotated). And yet this either did not occur to him or he didn’t care.

        Amy Berman Jackson used insreasingly restrictive steps to reign in Oliver Stone, but finally muzzled him when he posted her –the judge’s! picture online framed by (a sniper rifle’s viewfinder’s) crosshairs.

        Is it prudent to wait to shut down Trump’s rhetoric, if it’s lawful? (Does this fall under doctrine of prior restraint? He’s not a news agency.) Whose our 1A experts out there?

  3. wasD4v1d says:

    I imagine that the DOJ was fully expecting this and has gamed out the ways they will respond.

    • Harry Eagar says:

      What about Team Nutso? How do we think they gamed it out? Suppose this non-specific threat results in a specific injury?

      Team Nutso would, of course, say, it wasn’t us. How will the citizens react? The judiciary? The Congress?

  4. HikaakiH says:

    Rhetorical questions: So, Trump indicated to MJ. Upadhyaya that he understood her instructions at his arraignment. Was that a lie? Did he not truly understand? Or, did he just willfully ignore the instruction?
    Genuine questions: Does the court give Trump the benefit of the doubt with his BS RINO-Super-PAC excuse that he meant to avenge himself on people on his own side of politics rather than those involved with his criminal trials? Does this situation, caused by Trump, reflect on his defense attorneys? Will it begin to reflect on them if Trump continues in the vein?

    • Spank Flaps says:

      Trump followed up the “I’m coming for you” post with a video titled “welcome to the fraud squad”, with a meme showing and naming Biden, Bragg, James, Willis and Smith.
      (I don’t use Troath Senshill, I just saw Trump’s posts on a Meidastouch video)

    • David Brooks says:

      Sorry, possible a question I should know the answer to. As far as I can read, there is no addressee in the protective order. Is it sent to Magistrate Upadhyaya or Judge Chutkan? Which of them could issue further instructions or impose sanctions?

  5. Geoff_05AUG2023_0647h says:

    My guess the victims of the 241 charge are the legitimate electors. While all voters could be victims, the real electors were directly impacted by the fake elector scheme.

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    • benfdcmd says:

      I’m thinking that the electors in the seven swing states where false competing slates were submitted were direct victims of the conspiracy.

        • timbozone says:

          While it might have been the intention of the defendant(s) to target specific ethnic voters for disenfranchisement, it is all voters who are victims of the alleged criminal conspiracy. The conspiracy was an attempt to corrupt the entire process of how the electoral college is supposed to work. It was an attempt to dictate from the President of the United States to dictate his own retention of the Presidency by force of will, with complete disregard to the rights of a majority of US voters in the 2020 election. And, as pointed out by others before, this was a conspiracy to deprive all voters of their right to have their votes counted fairly and accurately in a US Presidential election.

          Looking at the statements and actions of various conspirators as outlined in the indictments, one can come to an easy conclusion that they were delusional fanatics, more concerned about retaining power by appeals to their own internal sense of righteousness, and without consideration for a stable system of federal elections, nor legal respect for any group of voters’ wishes that might oppose the mad grab for power that the conspirators engaged in.

  6. drhester says:

    From: Jack Smith makes court filing citing Donald Trump’s unhinged Truth Social post

    This isn’t the same as a gag order. But a protective order is a first step. Then if Trump keeps making posts like this the DOJ will be able to file for a gag order, and then after that, revocation of bail. The courts tend to tack on these kinds of restrictions and consequences incrementally, in steps, in escalating proportion to the defendant’s behavior. The consequences don’t come all at once. But they do come.

    • P’villain says:

      I think the first three sentences of that quote are completely wrong. Wouldn’t the motion for protective order have been filed anyway, as a means of expediting discovery? The only wrinkle here, I believe, was the screenshot of the all-caps posting.

        • Tech Support says:

          IIRC the “revocation of bail” part is wrong because he was released without bail in the first place.

          If we imagine a pattern of violations with gradually escalating sanctions, and it were to reach a point where being taken into custody was seriously considered, is it likely that bail would be offered as an intermediary step in spite of things? It seems wildly unlikely that we’d ever reach the point that they’d try to jail him, but it seems like bail is off the table even if it got to that point.

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          That’s the usual phrase. Here, I would modify it to revocation of release on his own recognizance. Trump would have to egregiously violate a series of increasingly harsh orders before the court would consider detaining him pretrial. But chaos and performance outrage are central to his persona.

        • P’villain says:

          Thank you. In that case, it’s good to see a brisk response from the prosecution. Step by step…

  7. sohelpmedog says:

    The SC likely figured it was just a matter of time before Trump would go too far and give them grounds to ask the Court to rein him in. This last tweet was more than calling the prosecutors and administration officials derogatory names. Vague though it was as to whom it was a threat to, it was a threat. Indeed the vagueness of the threat leaves it to his crazies to choose their victims. Judge AB Jackson showed remarkable restraint with Stone, likely because she herself was his target. Here, so far at least, Chutkan herself hasn’t been explicitly targeted so she may be more likely to restrict Trump’s utterances. A protective order – protecting the integrity of the proceedings, which implies protecting the participants in that proceeding, seems to be a wise approach and avoids the petulant claims to “free speech” that a “gag order” would engender, But this defendant might very well end up with a gag order. My guess is that the reason Trump has not gone after Chutkan is that based on her prior ruling ordering him to turn over materials to the J6 Committee, in which she put him in his place – “presidents are not kings and [trump] is not the president” – he is afraid of her, because she did not countenance his bullying.

  8. Eichhörnchen says:

    Donald Trump’s communiques are often not merely speech, but speech acts. Statements like this one can (and are sometimes designed to), inspire others to act. Since Trump has made himself the avatar of his followers’ persecution symbiosis as a cornerstone of his campaign, such indirect speech might be (and be designed to be) received more directly.

    Am not a lawyer so am not sure whether such indirect speech can be sanctioned under the law.
    I would also point out that the J6 charges have apparently emboldened Pence and DeSantis to criticize Trump more forcefully, which he most certainly interprets as “coming after” him.

    • Eichhörnchen says:

      “Symbiosis” is relevant to the above, but is misplaced in the comment as formulated.

    • bloopie2 says:

      Agreed. This set of Trump posts clearly evidences that he has the ability to know how to phrase something to skirt the edge of the law. First the broad statement that his supporters can take one way, then the follow-up of “Oh, no, let me clarify, I just meant this ‘more legal’ thing.” Shows how well Trump is able to be deceitful while still (to some, at least) claiming to be honest. For those jurors who won’t automatically believe that Trump is a lying scumbag, things like this can, I assume, be presented. What’s that old saying? Keep your mouth shut and let people think you’re (deceitful), or open your mouth and prove it.

      • bgThenNow says:

        Hundreds of people have been convicted and are serving time, some more than a decade for being ACTORS in the play DIRECTED by TFG.

        So we have some fairly strong evidence in that regard.

        • timbozone says:

          It has to be admissible in court though to be effective evidence in an actual trial. Or, in the case at hand, it has to fall afoul of a protective order as determined by a federal judge.

  9. Peterr says:

    I’ve wondered a lot about the existing order not to talk to witnesses. Given how Trump uses his speeches to put his view of the trial out there, how is this *not* attempting to coordinate stories with potential witnesses? “Here’s my view of what happened, so when they ask about our PERFECT conversations, you know how to cast your answers . . .”

    • Robot-seventeen says:

      Just guessing but I imagine there won’t be a lot of adverse witnesses that haven’t already provided statements under oath as to particulars. Changing those won’t really be very attractive to a witness with baked in testimony.

  10. Mike Stone says:

    Trump will obviously continue to make inflammatory statements since he serves his purposes including: it influences the jury pool and public; it incites his most ardent supporters to action; it gets him media attention; and it delays the trial.

    With respect to delays; if one is imposed, he will appeal all the way to the SCOTUS each time one is imposed and this will eat up time.

    • Jim O'Neill says:

      If this continues and the judge finally decides to jail him pre-trial, i’d think that might change trump’s mind about delaying the trial as long as possible.

    • sohelpmedog says:

      “With respect to delays, […]” makes no sense.
      Trump would not appeal any delay – how would a delay even come about? – and in any event there are strict limits on what rulings of the district court before final disposition can be the basis for an interlocutory appeal. And just because there is the Supreme Court, doesn’t mean that one can get one’s case before that Court.

      • Mike Stone says:

        Sorry, my mistake. Please substitute “With respect to delays…..,” with “With respect to protective orders.”

        I should not post when I am not awake!

    • Bulldog1$ says:

      All the outcomes of Trump continuing his inflammatory statements, that you listed, are certainly true. I also think, he is experiencing an enormous amount of anxiety. He has to find relief. The relief will come through risk taking and what he sees as “winning”. Trump is incapable of understanding that he is on a path to uncomfortable sanctions that he is willfully traveling. He’ll keep it up. Every time a Judge does not impose some meaningful sanction – one that causes more anxiety, he has “won”. I would like to see Trump be held accountable under the law, but we’re going to have to wait.

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  11. Greg Schorr says:

    “But it does raise interesting questions…”

    Made me think of the old, presumably, Chinese curse: “May you live in interesting times.”

  12. Norske23 says:

    Is minimizing the potential damage to the proceedings by a defendant a legitimate reason to set a short(er) trial date?

  13. klynn says:

    A few items that make Trump’s targeted statements dubious are:
    1) His talking in code to incite violence.
    2) His constant “playing victim” and putting out CYA “that’s not what I meant,” follow-up statements.
    3) In relation to talking in code, never knowing when his use of “I” and “me” is being meant as a larger call out of “I and Trump supporters” or “me and mine” threat in numbers. And after Jan. 6, all his threats now fall under a calling up of violence for his bidding.

  14. earthworm says:

    Incitement per Wikipedia:
    “In criminal law, incitement is the encouragement of another person to commit a crime. Depending on the jurisdiction, some or all types of incitement may be illegal. Where illegal, it is known as an inchoate offense, where harm is intended but may or may not have actually occurred.”
    DJT, with the help of his strategists, has perfected ambiguous and indirect verbiage, which weak minds may take as instruction or commands.
    It has been emphasized repeatedly that this is the mob boss MO.
    Where is the intersection of free speech and incitement in this “inchoate offense”?

  15. Ldmendenhall says:

    Reporting in US today: “It is a crime to try to influence a juror or to threaten or attempt to bribe a witness or any other person who may have information about your case, or to retaliate against anyone for providing information about your case to the prosecution, or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice,” Upadhyaya said to Trump.

    IANAL, and I do know that legal language may be different, but the plain meaning included in that warning is clear to me: don’t threaten witnesses, jurors, or obstruct justice. Any functionally intelligent person should be expected to know that the clear threat tfg made is exactly what the judge warned against.

    He needs to be in jail, or at least in house arrest, with no access to social media or electronic communications except with his lawyers.

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      Trump is a long way from deserving to be in jail or under house arrest. He may be driven to get there, but he’s not close yet. Even a gag order is legally problematic, but Trump seems determined to test the waters.

    • Doctor My Eyes says:

      That excellent article exemplifies a thing sorely lacking in the national discussion: context. While honest commentators are forced to exert energy swatting aside mountains of BS, a clear-headed national discussion is thwarted. People’s understanding remains fractured and piecemeal. Minor nits dominate the discussion space while an informed overview–a clear POV from which to comprehend the twists and turns–is crowded out. For example, it is astonishing how little attention has been given to placing Trump’s indictment in the context of the on-going trials of J6 defendants and the considerable number of recent rulings with applicability to this case. Such a discussion would prove fruitful and clarifying, unlike the shallow debates about the limits of fee speech, which are carried for the most part with little acknowledgement of settled law in this area. Of course, the media’s superficial coverage, and lack of coverage, of said trials has failed to lay a groundwork for understanding the charges against Trump. This is a serious failing of the national press.

      Also, OT but striking is the following quote from Donell Marvin. It seems that SOMEBODY saw J6 coming.

      It was this assessment that prompted me to reach out to every hospital in Washington, D.C., days before Jan. 6 to warn them to be fully staffed and prepared for a mass casualty event, including stockpiling blood supplies. I also briefed the District’s chief medical examiner and told him to be prepared for a large-scale crime scene with multiple fatalities.

      • Doctor My Eyes says:

        I also wanted to mention that the nearly universal failure to view the Trump indictment in the context of the hundreds of indictments of the “little people” who ruined their lives for him betrays the fact that too many Americans fail to embrace the idea that the law applies equally to all. Celebrity culture permeates all of our thinking. We are losing the ability to think in terms of issues and principles–it’s all about individuals and personalities. Many are incapable of thinking of Trump as just another citizen in the eyes of the law. When the claim is made that the law is politicized, part of the reason is that such people are incapable of visualizing how a non-politicized judiciary looks. To such people, the imagined alternative to the “politicization” they decry is a judiciary politicized in favor of their ideology. External strictures applied equally to all is anathema to the MAGA notion of freedom.

  16. Taxesmycredulity says:

    Re TFG’s ridiculous disclaimer that his threat was against RINOs and the Koch Bros, et al., no potential witness or co-conspirator anywhere said, “Whew! I’m so relieved he wasn’t talking about me.” He was threatening anyone and everyone!

    Also, sohelpmedog nails it with: “the vagueness of the threat leaves it to his crazies to choose their victims.”

    • SteveBev says:

      One way of interpreting his statements
      1 “if you go after me …etc”
      2 the “fraud squad”. Video meme featuring Biden and the prosecutors
      3 the supposed “disclaimer” featuring RINO

      Is that he is drawing attention (albeit obliquely) to the fact that much of the evidence against him comes from people who are republicans – officials, former aides and allies- now cast as his enemies and enemies of his base.

      The indictment is already replete with allegations ( no doubt founded on ample evidence) of campaigns of pressure including inflaming supporters to intimidate with threats of violence persons particularly identified by Trump – notably Pence.

      There is thus every reason to consider the these statements are steps in a what might reasonably be supposed to be an escalating campaign to intimidate witnesses against him – and the “excuse” he proffers is rather further confirmation of his strategy, as evidenced by his established pattern of practice.

  17. Alan_OrbitalMechanic says:

    Trump is not that hard to understand. 99.9% of everything he does with a public face to it is all about controlling the media narrative in the CURRENT media cycle. It has been his most reliable tool and weapon.

    What he said yesterday has no bearing on what he says today. For that matter what he said 30 seconds ago has no bearing on what he will say 30 seconds from now. The people he reaches have no effective memory with regard to his duplicity, and no inclination to discover it.

    And it works. The media for the most part has internalized that his indictment is all a political prosecution and is based on denying him his free speech rights. From a guy whose campaign was based on him leading “Lock Her Up” chants at his rallies. Somehow that never gets brought up when it needs to be.

    This flirtation with the court order is very consistent with that. Will he go too far and force them to put him in the pokey? If Trump thinks he will “win” in the media cycle by doing that, he absolutely will.

    • RipNoLonger says:

      Good points. Also, those that have no inclination to discover his duplicity are generally (IMO) not great readers of opinion pieces with timelines like this blog. They get their stream of infobits in sound and video clips that register until the next clip comes along.

  18. Kevin L_05AUG2023_1145h says:

    Picture a future where Loser #1 is calling out to his New Boss:

    “All I want to do is this… I just want to find one key; ONE KEY to my cell door… which is one more than I have”.

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  19. Joberly1954 says:

    EW’s post asks “Who is the victim of Trump’s 18 USC 241 charge?” The Biden-Harris ticket received 13.23 million votes in combined from AZ, GA, MI, NM, NV, PA, and WI. This was a majority of the total votes cast in Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, and Pennsylvania, and a plurality in Arizona, Georgia, and Wisconsin. By pressuring Pence not to accept Electoral College votes from those states, Trump was denying the right of 13.23 million US citizens to have their recorded votes be represented by the certified electors to the Electoral College.

    Evidence for the 18 USC 241 charge? Former VP Pence on Fox News earlier this week: “It wasn’t just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me, and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me, to literally reject votes, which would have resulted in the issue being turned over to the House of Representatives.”

    • Susan D Einbinder says:

      On his podcast Talking Feds, Harry Litman and guests mentioned that this was not clear, and suggested three possibilities: 1) the 81 million voters who voted for Biden; 2) the voters who were disenfranchised due to targeted discrimination; and/or 3) the voters in the states where fake electors were created that misrepresented the actual vote (they do not appear to be mutually exclusive/some overlap). But it was interesting that the specific individuals whose rights were violated were not mentioned.

      • timbozone says:

        My assumption is that the fleshing out of that will come in subsequent indictments, those indictments to include some of the unnamed co-conspirators in Trump’s latest indictment et al.

        • bmaz says:

          Because it is just swell to string it out indeterminably because Smith can? What a load of abusive and vindictive shit. This entire thing is turning into sickness.

          But, hey, Trump, so let’s shit on the whole of criminal law forever. That is “deranged”. I truly hope so many of you, Timbo, live long enough to realize what shit you are injecting into the criminal justice system with this relentless garbage.

  20. smf88011 says:

    Trump will go after anyone that he feels has been “disloyal” to him. His “clarification” post was nothing but an attempt to muddy the waters; he meant what he originally said and it was to everyone, not just RINOs and the Koch brothers. This video interview from YouTube shows his real intentions:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch

    • smf88011 says:

      It won’t let me edit the above post. Could a mod remove the “&t=12s” from the end of the link. This video shows something about Trump’s character that people should know.

      [FYI — there’s nothing at the end of the link pointing to a unique video. Please copy+paste the link again into a reply to this comment and I’ll fix it. /~Rayne]

  21. Matt Foley says:

    Him saying it was directed at RINOs does not negate that he also meant it the way we all took it. And he knows this. Classic Don the Con move.

  22. WhateverOfficer says:

    Remember, when Roger Stone posted an “Instagram of a judge presiding over his case in which she appears to be next to a crosshairs symbol”?

    What happened to him? A little slap on the wrist. Trump’s post is far less specific and it’s hard to see him facing any consequences.

  23. RitaRita says:

    I wonder if the Trump legal team has a 24/7 rapid response team that can try to repair whatever damage Trump’s undisciplined rants do asap. “Trump didn’t really mean _____________.”

    Judges are probably accustomed to having to clarify initial orders. But presumably the judge can take into consideration Trump’s history of incendiary and insulting tweets when addressing protective orders. There may come a point when the protective order is elevated to a gag order. And then Katie bar the door.

    • Ginevra diBenci says:

      They do indeed have a rapid response team, named Stephen Cheung, whose job it is to label every criticism of Trump as an exemplar of fake news propagated by the liberal media in the grips of TDS.

      I believe that when/if Cheung ever departs, I could do this job too a capital T.

  24. BobBobCon says:

    I’d be curious if Trump’s behavior continues, does this affect any of Cannon’s decisions.

    They are different cases and different jurisdictions, of course, but does she rethink her choice to use the Fort Pierce Courthouse, for example, if Trump continues to use ominous rhetoric?

  25. e.a. foster says:

    Trump’s “line” doesn’t exactly say what he is going to do, just he is going to come “after you”. My take on it is, its not a threat to those involved in the case but rather a signal to his supporters. Although Trump’s phrase has an interpretation in our society, it could be interrpreted as meaning some thing else.

    Trump has previously said things, which most of us interrpreted as messages to his supporters, who “preformed” as expected on 6 Jan.

    Trump also likes to act like he is some sort of “tough guy”, hence the language. On the other hand, he has always struck me as a physical coward.

    Then we had DeSantos make his statement. Leaves me wondering what ever happened to good manners and civilized discussion. All in all, its quite sad that politics in the U.S.A. has deteriorated to this.

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      When the leader of a violent mob tells you “he” is “coming after you,” believe him the first time.

    • timbozone says:

      It could easily be argued that he was making a general threat to anyone who opposes his wish to avoid criminal liability. Whether that reaches the level of rational belief legally, I am not qualified to say; we may soon see one or more judges wrestling with this issue, hopefully before more mobs are unleashed on those just trying to keep our legal and Constitutional system functioning here in the US.

  26. Molly Pitcher says:

    I think he is trying to get thrown in jail. There has been a pathetic showing of his people at all of the arraignments. I think he is hoping to rally the troops.

    It is like watching a two year old push and push to see where the boundaries are.

    • timbozone says:

      It would be incredibly easy for him to cross more lines than he has already. My conclusion is that he’s trying to find where the lines are for political advantage.

  27. Wulyum says:

    What might the judge say?
    “You say you were aiming your point at RINOs etc. But your point was very broadly made. Every lawyer, law enforcement officer and witness who forms part of the case against you could quite reasonably feel threatened. They would then ask ‘what is the court going to do to protect me?'”

    [Welcome back to emptywheel. Please choose and use a unique username with a minimum of 8 letters. We are moving to a new minimum standard to support community security. “Wulyum” is too short to meet the standard. Please also be sure to use the same email address each time you comment. Thanks. /~Rayne]

  28. harpie says:

    From the indictment:

    12/14/20 “[T]he legitimate electors of all 50 states and the District of Columbia met in their respective jurisdictions to formally cast their votes for president, resulting in a total of 232 electoral votes for [TRUMP] and 306 for Biden.” [65]

    “Consistent with the ECA, the legitimate electors’ signed certificates were annexed to the state executives’ certificates of ascertainment before being sent to the President of the Senate and others”. [68]

    The legitimate electoral votes that Biden won in the states that [TRUMP] targeted, and [TRUMP’s] margin of defeat, were as follows: Arizona (11 electoral votes; 10,457 votes), Georgia (16 electoral votes; 11,779 votes), Michigan (16 electoral votes; 154,188 votes), Nevada (6 electoral votes; 33,596 votes), New Mexico (5 electoral votes; 99,720 votes), Pennsylvania (20 electoral votes; 80,555 votes), and Wisconsin (10 electoral votes; 20,682 votes). [65][emphasis added]

    That’s: 84 EC votes and 410,977 Biden voters/votes
    Might this section give clues as to how the SC envisions the “victim”?

    • c-i-v-i-l says:

      The 410,977 Biden votes do not correspond to any specific group of 410,977 Biden voters. It’s the entire set of Biden voters in a state who create the margin of victory, so I’d think that it’s the entire set of Biden voters from those states that are the victims of the attempt to overrule their votes by use of fraudulent electors.

  29. Hart Liss says:

    FFS. The tweet is indicated in the prosecutors’ motion. It’s not for a judge to tell the parties in opposition to a motion to address something unless it was something the judge needs all sides to explain to them.
    Here, this isn’t that. It’s Trump’s lawyers to address the “Truth” or not.

  30. Bobster33 says:

    Ever since Jack Smith filed the superseding indictment on the retention of secret documents, I have felt that Jack Smith may be conducting a political campaign in addition to a legal one. The campaign is to keep Trump’s crimes in the media at key milestones. Those milestones seem to mach the beginning of the Republican primary and the attempt to replace Trump with the Florida guy. So I expect that as time goes on, Jack will add to the charges and release evidence at future campaign milestones.

    I think that Jack may have difficulty in getting a jury without at least one maga, so he’s going to destroy Trump’s future presidency through trials of Trump’s criminality.

    • timbozone says:

      The law is a political campaign. The problem is that most people are not used to thinking of it as such. Trump and his lawyers are the ones that are forcing the issue of what the law really is. It is they that are trying to be political by ignoring the nation’s laws.

      • bmaz says:

        The law is most certainly NOT a “political campaign”. Can you please stop saying dumb shit? Please? You need to give it a rest “Timbo”, or you can be helped in that regard. It is up to you.

  31. harpie says:

    I’m working on a timeline of the information in the TRUMP Indictment, and don’t remember knowing about this TRUMP / CLARK phone conversation before [it’s very possible we did] [TRUMP is at MAL at the time]:

    12/27/20 [Morning] After having told ROSEN on 12/26/20, that he would “not have unauthorized contacts with the White House again”, CLARK speaks with TRUMP on TRUMP’s cell phone for nearly three minutes. [73]

    In the afternoon of that day, TRUMP called Rosen / Donoghue and says, among other things:
    “People tell me [CLARK] is great. I should put him in.”

    and

    “Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen.” [74]

  32. Campeador says:

    I read the motion for the protective order. Among other things, it mentions an “attached protective order”. Where might this attachment be found?

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