Now Both JSOC AND CIA Have Green Light to Target American Citizen
Let the competition begin. The WaPo clarifies an earlier Reuters report (which was unclear that this pertained to CIA) that Anwar al-Awlaki has been added to the CIA’s kill list, after having been on JSOC’s kill list for some months.
Anwar al-Aulaqi, who resides in Yemen, was previously placed on a target list maintained by the U.S. military’s Joint Special Operations Command and has survived at least one strike carried out by Yemeni forces with U.S. assistance against a gathering of suspected al-Qaeda operatives.
Because he is a U.S. citizen, adding Aulaqi to the CIA list required special approval from the White House, officials said. The move means that Aulaqi would be considered a legitimate target not only for a military strike carried out by U.S. and Yemeni forces, but also for lethal CIA operations.
“He’s in everybody’s sights,” said the U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the topic’s sensitivity.
Does it strike you as odd that we’re targeting US citizens with no judicial process? Does it strike you as odd that we’ve got two entirely separate sets of list on which Americans can be targeted to be killed? Does it strike you as odd that we’ve now got an apparent turf battle over who gets to kill al-Awlaki?
One more bit of irony. The intelligence that won al-Awlaki a place on the kill list? It almost certainly came from Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who is not an American citizen (though he was captured in the US and he is the son of a bigwig banker), about whom we fought for months over whether we ought to Mirandize him.
Underwear is back! He probably was talking before the “authorities” had a chance to read him his rights. From Dec. 26, ABC news,
I wish it did. It’s been heading this way since 9/11, and I’d just about bet that Cheney was pushing hard for this kind of power. I expect it to be used against people in the US in the nest five or ten years.
I wish we had a president with the guts to say ‘no, this is wrong’.
I wish we had three functioning branches of government, instead of one and two fractions (headed toward one and only one).
Didn’t you hear the news? President Obama has decided to scale down our use of assassination, and only use it on terrorists and individuals from Iran and North Korea.
Oh, wait.
I meant scale back the use of nuclear weapons, which now we’ll only use sometimes.
Assassinations are okay, but you got to get on the list first.
Thank god I read the news.
The NYT weighs in too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07yemen.html?hp
“A former senior legal official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president.”
Nah, the Bush administration just tortured them to death
Or grabbed them and wiped their brains clean.
One would think that an operational type of guy like Awlaki (ostensibly) would be more valuable to them than that. You know, intelligence-wise.
And as for competitive snuff teams, well, what can I say?
WTF? What about the U.S. citizen killed by missile in 2002 in Yemen? (along with everyone else in the vehicle) Name is now coming up now, but the early stories about the ‘kill list’ and posts here have mentioned the incident repeatedly.
That would be Kamal Derwish, who was said to be a member of the Lackawanna Six. Remember, Cheney had urged Bush to use the US military to head up to Buffalo to arrest them (although I think he wanted the military to kill them). Although Derwish was in the car, and the CIA knew he was in the car because they were monitoring his phone, he wasn’t the target. But Derwish was a key witness for the defense in the Lackawanna case. He reportedly recruited the men to travel to Afghanistan and is said to have known info about their material support for al-Qaeda.
Yes. er, No, not since Our President (Bush) declared that the Constitution is just a damn piece of paper, and elected Federal officials no longer take their oath of office seriously.
And our Supremes have ruled that Corporations are People, and have the right to spend as much as they want to elect the lobbyists of their choice to run the government.
Oh, dear. I’m sounding cynical. I hate that.
Bob in AZ
small edit …
Sore losers, governed by sore losers.
Is this list created by the same guys that perfected the no fly lists?
Now that really is an alarming prospect isn’t it? Our “intelligence” agencies have repeatedly proven themselves to be incompetent and these are the idiots we will rely on to determine who gets assassinated from a distance (murderous guys in helicopters or murderous computer jockeys flying UAVs)?
When the assassins get the patch to stitch onto their sleeves for each action, I assume the motto emblazoned thereon will be “Oops”.
I’m looking for someone with a no flies list. I’m tired of the cluster flies littering up my window sills between the storms & the windows.
Nice news day – Obama approves killing Americans without even the formality of a show trial, and he threatens North Korea and Iran with nuclear attack to prove how nuclear weapons must not be used – at least by those not chosen.
But as far as the horror that is this development, I suspect that it’s nowhere near as straightforward as it seems.
First, remember that this new Emmanuel Goldstein is supposedly in Yemen – yet another place whose natural resources and physical location the US covets.
Second, there’s the idea that New Goldstein is as real as the dead bin Laden, or the faux Muslim Adam Pearlman – in other words, not.
In which case this is simply social conditioning for the idea that the President and his bosses get to announce which Americans are to be executed as enemies of the state.
I definitely agree that if the guy can be arrested practically he should be tried as a regular citizen. The trouble is that it may be really impractical, risky, or impossible to capture him. He’s engaged in a fight against the US from foreign locations that host international terrorism, and he is protected by militants with military small arms and munitions. The case is irregular, you can’t just arrest the guy with a 911 call, and you can’t just let him run around doing his thing because he’s trying to cause mass carnage. He’s engaged in terrorist campaign against the US. Your local police department doesn’t have to get its people killed trying to take an armed liquor store robber alive at all costs, or let him go. I don’t share the view that this guy has to be taken alive in order to go to trial in a civilian court (though if that can be safely done, then it should be) when he would just as soon organize attacks on airborne commercial airliners if he can.
I have to agree that the scenario you propose is a gordian knot kind of situation. As we have seen with FISA or torture, however, it is but a short step to looser and looser interpretation of the rules. Eventually, the interpretation becomes “just do it.” We have already seen that mercenaries can act as they will in the US with impunity, so you can expect to see more open, as opposed to those that we can only suspect, killings of US citizens once the policy is moving. I wonder if obamarahma will make a speech opposing this kind of operation as he signs an EO quietly, and thus win a second nobel peace prize.
“Your local police department doesn’t have to get its people killed trying to take an armed liquor store robber alive at all costs, or let him go. I don’t share the view that this guy has to be taken alive in order to go to trial in a civilian court (though if that can be safely done, then it should be) when he would just as soon organize attacks on airborne commercial airliners if he can.”
Actually you bring up a very good example. Your local police department can’t just decide someone is too troublesome to arrest and then go and assassinate them. There are police snipers but they are only to shoot to kill in very narrow circumstances and are not just given a list of names to find and kill regardless of whether those people pose an immanent threat or not. Do you think for instance that the Mayor of Los Angeles should be able to come up with a list of suspects (not convicted of anything) who should be assassinated? If POTUS can engage in extra-judicial killings because mere suspects are deemed by POTUS to be too troublesome to arrest, why can’t other parts of our government also authorize assassinations on our own soil with that same justification?
I take it you didn’t live in the Old South or the Wild West?
BTW, you have an interesting handle. Which side are you on?
Bob in AZ
Oh, geez. The first refuge of tyrants.
Another proponent of This war is Unique!!! This has never happened before! etc. etc.
Since when is it part of our Constitution that no difficult cases shall be brought to trial?
Bob in AZ
“I definitely agree that if the guy can be arrested practically he should be tried as a regular citizen. The trouble is that it may be really impractical, risky, or impossible to capture him.”
You can have the rule of law, or you can have less risk in life. Make a choice, but drop the pretenses. The law is not about convenience. Either cops are heroes, or they are safe. Make a choice.
A question: why the use in the headline of the vague and sanitized phrase “green light to target,” when the much more clear statement would have been “Both JSOC AND CIA Have Obama’s Approval To Kill American Citizen” ?
I like your headline idea better. “Green Light to Target” seems vague to me, too. Still, thanks, EW, for this informative and frightening post.
I assume a list of white militia members who are US citizens will be added to the kill list soon with news like this?
“I assume a list of white militia members who are US citizens will be added to the kill list soon with news like this?” No, they will be authorized to do the killing.
snark tag missing?
Aha! I know. April 4 was this past Sunday – I’ll bet Obama and the crew decided finding enough patsies like James Earl Ray was going to be just too damned difficult.
The “crazed gunman acting alone” cover story only works when the fall guy can be effectively isolated from the public. Even larger-scale execution efforts, such as Ruby Ridge and Waco, only work when the victims can’t speak for themselves (think of how Waco would have played out differently with those inside the compound able to give their side of the story to the world, uploading video of the attack on YouTube or whatever). With ubiquitous communications technology the isolation of domestic victims is becoming more and more difficult for the government to achieve. And as the recent WikiLeaks video shows, even the previously reliable buffer of geography is becoming less effective for covering up the truth.
Best to dispense entirely with the need for a patsy and cover story and simply announce government executions.
And who better to sell nuclear war and government executions to America than Mr. Nobel Peace Prize?
I still think it would be quite interesting for him to hire a lawyer and try to get a restraining order from a US court against the CIA. He hasn’t even been indicted for anything!
Could the ACLU do that, even without the targets cooperation?
If we’re gonna do offical killings, I got a little list myself. Might as well make use of the power, if we’ve got it.
Boxturtle (The inventor of the plastic grocery bag goes first)
I believe you’ve suggested this in the past and I don’t think it’s a bad idea. Of course, I don’t think he’s interested in pursuing but his parents are here. Certainly, they have standing. It would be nice to have the White House explain how this selection process works (and yes, I realize state secrets would be invoked and our courts would roll over). Our Con Law Professor President makes me yearn for the days of our last liberal president.
You know, when I was a wee lad, folks left of center had only contempt for Nixon. Looking back I don’t really understand why. Oh, tricky Dick, I miss you. Let me count the ways: EPA, Clean Air Act, indexed Social Security to inflation, cease-fire with North Vietnam (after a surge don’t you know), Consumer Product Safety Commission, ABM treaty, and he proposed Health Insurance reform that I think most readers here would say is better than Obama’s version.
Oh, Mr. Nixon, you accomplished all that and tossed it all away on a needless two-bit burglary. You’d get away with it today. All is forgiven. Zombie Dick Nixon in 2012.
I completely agree, much to my disappointment. Never thought at the time that Nixon would represent a more liberal choice than those that would follow. I thought his resignation was a great day for open government. Carter perhaps being the only exception on our slide to the right.
Wrong. That guy goes second. The guy who goes first is whoever invented those damn voice-menus. “For Payroll, Press 1. To Fuck Yourself, Press 2.”
If we’re voting, (nobody said anything about voting but what the heck) The Guy With The Voice-Mail things gets my vote for Number 1.
box tutle @14
lol
You are too late.
Better read it. It has a history of redemption (i.e. recycling).
I’ve read about plastic grocery bags environmental benefits. It’s debatable IMO as to if they’re actually better than recyclable, renewable paper. But the fact remains that they simply don’t work well for their intended purpose.
Ya know, I bet there are a lot of scum around that the police could never prove anything against. Perhaps this murder policy will have domestic benefits as well. Why bother with the cost of arrest, we know they’re guilty!
Boxturtle (All you non-white, non-Christian American citizens, the REAL Americans are coming to get you!)
FWIW, I’m not a fan of plastic. I use reusable hemp canvas bags and recycled fiber bags. Just thought you could advance your list with his history! ;)
I guest we have entered a police state…
Hemp rather than oil based plastics?!? The War On Drugs is coming for you, if the oil company lawyers don’t get you first!
This is not a police state! If we open this policy domestically, we won’t need police. Private citizens will be able to whack anybody who isn’t white and Christian by simply filling out a form and buying the bullets!
My stomach hurts.
Boxturtle (Perhaps if I remember that scary brown moslems aren’t really human, I’ll feel better)
Please be due to tragic laughter from exposure to your own BoxTurtle dark, dry humor.
Because you are keeping me from tears over the subject matter of the post.
The folks at Ruby Ridge and Waco might argue that it’s not the whites and the Christians who are protected.
Don’t fall for the divide and conquer tricks.
They were given a LONG time to surrender and submit to lawful arrest. They did not. The end result was tragic in both cases, but could have been stopped had a LAWFUL arrest order been obeyed.
Do you rate a play by just watching it’s final act?
And why single those out? They’re not the only arrests that end in gunfire. Nor even the most recent.
Boxturtle (Do you suppose the government would have been as patient if Korseh had been muslim?)
what if Fred Phelps were muslim?
The US government had ample opportunity to arrest Koresh when he was out of his compound. Apparently they waited until he was in the compound in order to make a big splash in the news. Apparently the government officials didn’t expect the people to fight because of the women and children. Once the fighting began, the government reps didn’t know what to do to calm it down and save lives. It was another fiasco. Many of the people I know felt that it was wrong at the time and they convinced me.
The same with the incident at Ruby Ridge. The federal agents involved proved to be murders, but were given commendations and promotions.
Gosh, wish I could remember the name of that assistant AG that authorized …
Gosh, wish I could remember the name of that assistant AG that authorized … I assume that is snark because it was Janet Reno herself, with Clinton’s blessing, that authorized the attack on the Koresh compound
Yep, SNark for sure.
I was mentioning the Assistant AG that held Tactical Command and Control …
Blame the victims for their deaths? Nice.
Over eighty people died at Waco, including 20 children. They all deserved to die?
“It’s your own fault – by not obeying orders you made them burn you to death.”
I’d say we got to hear exactly the story the government wanted heard, just like in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else.
Where in the world did I use the word deserved? It was a tragedy.
All Koresh had to do to stop it was raise his hands and walk out.
When he didn’t, the government implemented arguably the worst arrest plan that has ever been written. Incompetence is that nicest thing that could be said about it.
Doesn’t change the fact that when you’re told you’re under arrest, you surrender to the law. You fight the government with lawyers, not guns. They’ll always have more guns than you do.
Ruby Ridge sounds like the new model for handling moslems, however.
Boxturtle (In a battle of crazies vs idiots, tragedy is almost inevitable)
You didn’t use the word deserved, you suggested their fate was the result of their own choices.
Again, here’s what you said:
And I’ll say again that this is classic, authoritarian, blame the victim for their deaths for not obeying the police rationalizing.
Calling the deaths “tragic” just long enough to point out that the order was “LAWFUL” is to me stupefyingly unfeeling, if not outright sociopathic.
20 children were burned to death by the US Government. Just what was their crime? Do you think they made a choice to disobey a LAWFUL order?
With all due respect: Fight the government with lawyers? Don’t ya think perhaps…with the way our semi-corrupt legal system operates…the thought might have crossed his mind: What are the chances I’ll even get a fair trial?
We know false witnesses, false testimony, planted “evidence,” even skewed judges can mess things up rather quickly. And the way the media operates, public opinion was already solidly against anything even remotely associated with the Waco group. Who knows how much of that was disinformation?
P.S. And who knows for certain, had the dude come out with his hands up…that he wouldn’t have been picked off while officials would later claim it as one of those “he came out shootin’ first” kinds of things?
From a firsthand account, courtesy of a newspaper reporter-turned-author, Jim Moore, who was on the scene and writes “I don’t think the truth of what transpired has ever been told.” What follows are the words of Dan Malloney, cameraman, also on site that morning as a deputy sheriff kicked him down while BAFT agents tried to confiscate his camera:
“I don’t know any other way to say this except the honest way and that’s that they were all assholes. The ATF screwed up. They knew it and I had it on tape. I had pictures of their guys dying for no reason. I had pictures of them assaulting citizens who were exercising their right to practice religious freedom and to keep and bear arms. It was all there on tape. They just wanted us there, originally, so that we could videotape them playing cowboy, making Koresh out to be Satan and them being the great heroes to protect us all. That’s obviously why they had their people call us from Dallas and tip us. What a bunch of bullshit. You know my job was never to take sides on this thing and I didn’t. I just recorded it as it happened.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/what-really-happened-at-w_b_42326.html
in 1963
well, this approach could greatly simplify and realign our judicial system.
one witness, some official suspicion, and the govt kills that one who will come to be called “national secuity threat #…”.
then the positive consequences roll in:
no trials or else
short “ex vivo” trials.
many fewer defense lawyers needed (heh, bmaz).
less crowded court dockets.
fewer judges needed.
fewer law students graduated from harvard and yale graduated and therefore fewer to f— up the country.
more free enterprise
as former gov’t trained throat-slashers like seals and delta form blackwater- type corps to produce nat’l security corps’.
then, when this simplified approach is applied domestically,
prison populations will slowly drop as old prisoners die out and new prisoners are slain before going to prison.
what an innovation.
god, these harvard lawyers are smart.
Yeah, look at all the positives! Even high calibre bullets cost less than $.50 in bulk and it shouldn’t take more than two even if you’re a terrible shot. Heck, the paperwork to book someone costs more than that!
Boxturtle (The hell with beat cops, let’s hire sharpshooters!)
Doesn’t strike me as odd, simply fucking Terrifies me
Just wait until President Elizabeth Cheney inherits this power.
Thanks, I’ll sleep better tonight
Regrettably, not any more.
It does strike me as blatantly illegal however. Pity that DOJ only exists to promote criminal activity rather than to thwart it.
box turtle @22
you’re on a roll, bt.
This is not right!
klynn @16
thanks for looking this up.
gordon dancy sounds like a very interesting fellow.
and he went on to set up a plbg recycling system.
his daughter, i just read, works for epa and has invented a set of “permanent” groc bags that fits into a groc cart and do different jobs.
i’d link to it, but this damned itouch doesn’t have copy and
paste.
phred @24
re: the patch.
yeah, they’ll be known as america’s
“special oops”
troops.
LOL, way better than my joke, thanks : ) From now on, I’m calling them Special Oops ; )
It’s okay though. He’s got one of them funny, AY-RAB sounding names… /s
klynn @23
fwiw i dont shop at stores that offer “paper or plastic,sir”.
try asking the hard-eyed businessmen who run the korean “farmers’ market” if they’d give their customers a paper choice.
This, the wikileaks helicopter murder video (and of course the total cover up) and the mine disaster. What do they say? That the inexorable slide of the US into brutality, repression, oligarchy and an essentially 3rd world status is now gathering pace. It is a juggernaut. And frankly, there is absolutely nothing can be done to stop it.
FDL should really be asking only one question. How can this happen? Why does the population of the US, at least the large majority, allow, and even in many ways enable this?
I’m sorry, but these are exactly the same questions we asked of the Germans when the dust settled after World War II. There is a sickness devouring your country. It will not end until it has run its course.
no judicial process?
We are at war against al Qaeda under an authorization from Congress.
Anwar al-Awlaki is on the wrong team.
There has been no declaration of war from congress. Even if there was, such does not automatically result in a suspension of civil and consitutional rights.
You are correct that he is on the wrong team. From ObamaLLP’s viewpoint, FDL is on the wrong team.
Boxturtle (Think about it)
Fortunately, there’s no Authorization for Use of Military Force against FDL.
No, not yet.
But if FDL opposes this US policy, then it is “against us” and “for them,” and thus subject to the AUMF? Already way down the slippery slope.
Funny how we’ve taken to the constitution being amended bypassing that messy article 5 protocol.
AUMF bypassed a basic tenet of our constitution without an amendment.
Patriot Act, FISA bypassed the amendment process also.
So was article 5 amended or repealed without our knowledge?
Good Point, He bad.
We could have the discussion on the powers that congress has granted, both foreign and domestically to the executive branch
whatever happened to the word “assassinate?” same fate as “torture,” “people,” “humans” and “citizens,” I suppose.
Murder by any other name is still murder.
And calling “corps” by the name of “companies” — they’re still corps.
No wonder people have become members of Orwell’s Brave New World; reagan’s handler’s must have been using the book as a “how to destroy thought in the U.S.”
manual.
Please use the words “assassinate,” “torture” and “corps” where appropriate.
thanks Empty !
also. the analogy of China offing the Dalai Lama in the WaPo comments was pretty damn good – prolly one of you hippies
It strikes me as odd that we have a secret civilian agency with a license to kill and torture, when their mission is supposed to be the quiet gathering of intelligence.
We should leave intelligence and special ops to the military. Abolishing the CIA, something President Kennedy wanted to do before he was “eliminated,” should be high on the progressive agenda.
In reference to Ruby Ridge, and I’m not intending to offend, but one of two conditions here; We’re in alternate realities or I really need to have what you’re smoking.
His Son was shot in the back (prior to serving of any warrant), his Wife, was shot thru a door window while holding their infant baby.
Yea DoJ team.
Oh, and the first officer killed, a DEA agent (what the hell were DEA agents being used for) had just finished an investigation, an incredibly HUGE investigation against a very influential member of the eastern business community. That investigation was dropped after his death.
wish I could remember the name of the assistant AG that authorized ….
I stand corrected on Ruby Ridge. Memories fade, and I was sure an attempt to arrest had been made before shooting started.
Boxturtle (And I never meant to imply that our government only just started to flout the Consitiution)
Thanks Boxtutle.
One of ‘Their’ primary objectives is to divide first … then vilify one half
and AG Holder was up to his ass in those operations. He has proven to his owners his capability, efficiency and loyalty
But now it’s legal, you see. It gets the “green light” now, so there’s nothing to flout. Bush II made this innovation. Obama was hired to change it, but failed to even try.
Simply an Illusion
Considering the US has already tried to assassinate this AMERICAN extra-judicially, it comes as no surprise some other depraved government organization wants in on the action.
Good thing we have a constitutional scholar in charge who can
upholdundermine our core values as profoundly as possible.When (not If) the US starts openly assassinating raghead americans inside america, I wonder if the citizens will do more than yawn and avert their eyes.
Interesting that the article says that the CIA and JSOC have gained permission without bothering to provide us with feedback from chain that provided the command, letting us infer that it was Obama and not bothering to inform us of whether the Administration was contacted for a comment. Plausible deniability, almost,along with a now standard sprinkling of unbalanced reporting.
Part of the change we can believe in, referring to an unconstitutional assassination as a sensitive topic.
If justice was, in quaint days gone by, blind then our current legal system is cataloging and prejudging every potential misdeed among our burgeoning proletariat.
bearcountry @43
that was my thought exactly.
not that i remember that well,
but at ruby ridge
wasn’t a wife and mother killed while holding her child?
“they shouldn’t have brought their children into battle.”
Yes, an FBI sniper shot her in the head while she was holding her 10-month-old baby.
Of course, he wasn’t trying to kill her, he was trying to kill the others as they were running away. Too bad they forgot little things like an order to surrender before shooting to kill.
Golly, those crazy militia types and their unfounded fear and anger at the government.
Doesn’t anyone recognize that the US Government is by many orders of magnitude the most dangerous of all the insane, armed, violent groups?
I think it’s very instructive to examine who the actors were from DoJ at Ruby Ridge. They have climbed several rungs at the Dept now.
one other thing which may be worth remembering about Ruby Ridge.
When the event ended, there were literally hundreds of regular citizens that had arrived on scene and literally surrounded the Tactical Teams. Many, many eyes on them.
The actions of obamarahma in targeting people for assassination, including Americans not actually even charged with a crime, is an even worse shredding of the Constitution than under w. obamarahma has no excuse because he is a nominal Constitutional scholar, and w was not.
As far as FDL and the firepups are concerned with being on an assassination list, well, we really don’t know how people are put on the list. Since most of us are not in obamarahma’s fan club, we don’t know where we stand.
Yes, W at least had the defense of ignorance – Obama is fully aware of the significance and consequences of his chosen actions.
Since Obama is knowingly continuing and expanding Bush’s policies, Obama is guilty of the greater crimes.
Exactly as predicted long before the election.
Next thing you know, Obama is going to start taking a series of short vacations to Nevada so that he can compete with the killer jockeys in the Drone Room Murder Competitions.
But first Michele has to buy him a cool outfit and helmet to wear.
Go Barry, Go!
I’m sure he’s authorized his first ‘kill’ and now has the blood on this hands.
It will be interesting to see on this new Jacket if he receives theater and op patches. Could you see the Jubilation nationwide as he ‘drives’ that Raptor into Bin Laden’s nest?
Time to break out the brewskies, 2nd Term is Here
It is? Did I sleep through the election?
Bob in AZ
just some snarking with you Bob
How’s AZ today?
Well, I admit to being snark-impaired. Must have missed the clues.
AZ is fine today, but cool up here in the N country.
Bob in AZ
Does it strike you as odd that we’re targeting US citizens with no judicial process? Does it strike you as odd that we’ve got two entirely separate sets of list on which Americans can be targeted to be killed? Does it strike you as odd that we’ve now got an apparent turf battle over who gets to kill al-Awlaki?
NO, NO and NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See the United States Patriot Act!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Published on Tuesday, October 30, 2001
Martin Luther King: A Domestic Terrorist?
by Ira Chernus
“….If Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., were alive today, he might well be leading acts of civil disobedience against the war in Afghanistan. And he would probably be charged with domestic terrorism, under the new anti-terrorism act. Anyone who has any links to his organization, or contributed money to it, could be charged too…..According to Section 803 of the act, it takes three things to make you a domestic terrorist. You have to break a law (federal or state). Your lawbreaking has to involve acts dangerous to human life….And it must appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population and/or the government…Suppose Dr. King and a bunch of others sat down in a highway in front of a truck carrying cluster bombs on their way to Afghanistan. This one should be an easy shot for a prosecutor who wants to charge him with terrorism. He definitely broke the law. Acts dangerous to human life? You betcha, the prosecutor tells the jury….The crowd could easily get out of hand, spill into the oncoming lane, and cause a car to swerve dangerously. The truck carrying the bombs might get tipped over. An ambulance with a mortally ill person might not be able to get through. If one protestor forgot about the little penknife in her pocket, the prosecutor’s case would be made: armed with deadly weapons….And surely the protest appears to be an effort to intimidate or coerce the government….”
Read the Entire Article @:
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-08.htm
Does anyone know who the Deltas report to now?
Under the previous admin, Cheney directly issued and signed their orders. I don’t see that same chain of command working here now, doubt that the VeeP is allowed in that sandbox let alone be given control.
So that leaves who? Who are they reporting directly to?
9, 11, and 13 are odd. This is dreadful. But then, they are simply providing appropriate tools required to intercept and obstruct terrorism.
What is the legal definition of appropriate? Grrrr
Golly gosh, so American citizens can be targeted for extra-judicial murder either by a civilian agency of the government OR the military. Why, that’s freedom of choice! Is this a great country or what?
Practically speaking, it might be hard to due process a guy who is engaged in a quasi-military campaign and probably doesn’t imagine himself being ‘taken alive’ …
What is the problem with charging and trying him for Treason, in abstentia if necessary? That would clear up the legal muddle.
Yes, it would. My guess is they still do not have shit for admissible credible evidence; that has always been their problem with Awlaki.
credible evidence? Really. If you were to arrest this person, then I would say that you need evidence. But to kill him? What, do you want to give him everything we have against him, just like Law and Order?
No, we took out members of the Vietnam VC infastructure via the Phoenix program with evidence that could not have stood up in court, but then we were not taking them to court. Did we kill some innocents along the way? More than likely, a few. But nothing is perfect, you just try to do your very best, use intel, and try real hard to get the right guy
ITS A WAR. And guess what, in a war, people die. Innocent farmer just plowing his field to a team planting booby traps-IED being the new word. They die. ITS A WAR. And no matter how much our generals lie, you can not separate out the bad guys from the innocent bystander. Never could, never will. Because, in a war, there are no innocent bystanders. 10 year olds throwing bombs into US trucks, the same kid the guys in the truck just in front gave candy to. Lols-little old ladies-can place a bomb just as easily as anyone. In an asymetrical war they don’t wear uniforms. Kind of like the way we fought in our revolutionary war against the British Empire.
Wars kill people and other living things. Always have, always will. BUT, if you believe that our military is always wrong,that our troops are all liars and baby killers, you have the attitude that says to the soldier-I have felt it and our troops today feel it-I am better than you. So you make sarcastic comments like the ones here. Because you have very little knowledge about what is going on, but because you read what the papers print, you think you are an expert. Think about why so very many american citizens-rednecks, the not so well educated, the patriotic-think of the democratic party-the party that gave vets the new GI bill, the ones that got better pay for military and fixed up the VA that the rethugs had let fall apart-as arrogant snobs who always talk down to soldiers and always act as if the Generals are lying idots-who all have advanced degrees and know the constitution a damn site better than the congresspersons do(the D congressman who stated that he was afraid that adding 8000 more USMC to Guam with make it tip over, the faces on the Generals at that moment was like, we have to obey these inbred idiots). I see it in the comments of every liberal blog. And frankly it is why the majority of soldiers and veterans so dislike the democratic party. The rethugs lie to the troops and the democrats talk down to us. As if we were to stupid to make it anywhere except the armed forces. 40 years on and it still gets my goat. Just as much as the lies of the rethugs do.
Sir, I never asked you to kill on my behalf. Never. Nor did I ask you to contribute to the war games of those who pull the strings. I did not ask you to fall in line with Cheney and Rumsfled. Did not ask you to “save me from the terrorists.”
These things have been and continue to be…your free choice. So please do not make me responsible for what you’ve done and/or continue to do.
As for feeling angry at the “libs” who talk down to the military: How about this – I’m absolutely fed up with soldiers who willingly keep the “good guy/bad guy” meme going as a way to feed their need for a mega adrenalin rush. Fed up with soldiers who don’t bother to do their homework re: who calls for a war, and why they call for it. Vietnam – most people know it was a huge mistake based on a false flag operation lie (Gulf of Tonkin). Yet even with the draft, there were still plenty of young guys who were just itching to “take out the goons” and “save our country” as a result of McNamara and his pals at Boeing, Raytheon, and Lockheed.
And then we go to the all volunteer military at present. People who don’t ever question any of the whys or hows or whos. Just like robotrons, they simply sign up of their own free will, obey orders on command, and get accolades for making the world a more dangerous place.
I’m rarely this rude. I know I’m being rude. But I’ve HAD IT with military people who justify what they do in the name of “protecting my freedom.” Guess what? Had you people stopped just for a moment and asked, “Wait a minute. Why should I go to Iraq, and is this justified?” and done your homework…
It’s absolute b.s. to tell me I need you to “protect” me. Yeah, based on our military’s nearly non-stop aggression all these years, of course there are now governments and groups wanting to kill U.S. citizens. Called pay-back time. But no question, if we hadn’t had people willing to blow other people’s heads off in far-away countries that did nothing to deserve it, I wouldn’t need protection now. So please, spare me your outrage. You and your “comrades,” so easily manipulated to pick up a gun for the sake of the military industrial complex and all things related, were duped. And made a bigger mess of things as a result.
We may now never recover from what our “brave men and women” in uniform have wrought. Not just these past years, or even decades, but centuries.
Patton said, “I love war.” A man considered by many to be a great “leader.”
Think about it.
Actually, the only thing that bothers me is that this became public. His actions and words are what has led to this action. Back in the day, in Vietnam, the Phoenix program was working very well. Until it was publicized back in “the world”-what we in country called the US
Which is why I see nothing wrong with killing this person. His words have made him an enemy of the US. His actions-if you really believe that all his actions have been written about, well I have some really prime ocean front property in Arizona that I will let you have cheap.
The same goes for any member of alQaeda. They have declared war on us, they fired the first shot. And if you believe that no state has ever declared war on a stateless terrorist group before,I wonder where would the British empire and their war against the thuggee in India fall out.
So what would you have us do to this person? Arrest him, try him and put him in prison? Not a viable action.
The entire mideast is a war zone. There are no front lines, no borders. We have troops in every country in this part of the world. Our Spec Ops people are stretched very thin, but we should send in a team to take him out. For the safty of our main force military in Afghanistan.
Now, should we stay in A’stan? No way. Declare victory and leave, as fast as possible. We don’t, we attempt to “nation build”, we are going to be there for generations. And for what? A narco state with leadership that stole their election? Nope, sorry. Democracy can not be exported. You can not impose western style democracy from the top down. You can not destroy 2000 years of customs by totally changing the way they treat their women and by giving them a puppet federal gvt. What, you think that if we leave women will retain the rights we forced the Afghans to give them? It is too laugh.
Afghans think that we talk down to them, that we tell them what to do. Bakeesh has been the way that govts in the mid east interact with their citizens for thousands of years. You think we can change that? Afghanistan was a totally failed state, no real central govt, just warlords. The vast majority of Afghans just want to be left alone and they want us to stop interfering in their lives and leave. 9 years ago we came into A’stan and drove the Taliban from power. That was just fine with the man-on-the-street then, BUT. We brought in a totally corrupt govt-they had no Imam like Ali al-Sistani in Iraq to force the US to accept Afghan society and to treat Afghans as equals to the US,as he did in Iraq. So we, with our vast arrogance and hubris, came into Afghanistan and found a puppet who we made president. If we were to leave today Karzai would have to hide behind his brother, the narco warlord The so called federal govt barely controls the govt buildings. Once again, instead of just going in and taking care of business and getting the fook out, we went in and stayed, far far beyond when we should have left.
So, yes we have assassination teams running around looking for targets. What, you thought that our UAVs were our only weapons? Come on, one team with a couple of shooters with long guns taking out specific people is, to my mind, a whole lot better than relying on some video to identify targets and then getting lots of other people killed as well. Don’t you?
I have fought in a war. There are no rules other than kill them before they kill you or your buddy. Any other rules are just flat out BS. Just like the current ROE in Afghanistan which will get our guys killed. Because McCrystal is a Spec Ops guy, not a “Real” Army general. And you can not use line troops like you can Spec Ops teams. The training and the outlook is not the same.
Remember this, Phoenix worked. It took out the infastructure of the VC within South Vietnam and did in fact save several hundreds of our line troops. Killing a single targeted individual can do more to win a war than mass battles can. Which is one big reason why even the line dogs now have sniper teams all the way down to the company level. Who killed people daily in Iraq and who are doing the same in Afghanistan. Which is a totally different type of war. Iraq was an urban war. Afghanistan is a war of the mountains. Against an enemy who has been fighting each other for over a thousand years. They fought, and beat, the USSRs best. What hubris makes us think that we can do better? The Afghans want to be left alone, so get the fook out and leave them alone. Just put in Spec Ops teams to kill specific targets.
You make my flesh crawl, timr.
Really? Well its people like you who have no idea what our military does and what the military does in your name, who make my skin crawl. Are you too “civilized” for some such as I? You think that I am a knuckle dragger out of some past age? You get all your attitudes from war movies perhaps? Well, if not for people like me who “make your skin crawl”, you would be either speaking German or Japanese, be in one of the infamous German or Japanese slave factories. Because our soldiers in WWII did no more and no less than what we did in Vietnam, oh, except we, the US and England, actually made war against the civilian populations of Germany and Japan. Oh, and dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan. Which likely saved us a million dead and wounded. So look down your nose at me, it is the biggest reason that the majority of soldiers and vets(HELLO, I AM SAYING MOST, NOT ALL)dislike liberals so much.
I do not agree with anything you’ve said because nothing you said made any sense.
I think you need professional help because you’re hostile, confused, and likely to hurt yourself or others with your utter nonsense.
We have nothing to offer you here except a mirror and some genuine caring, but you cannot handle that.
I was attempting to engage here with timr because Phoenix was a program targeting high value military targets. With dossier jackets and documented identities. Not a direct contrast with what is happening with this US Citizen (traitor).
And the assets we used were our best. Disciplined with the highest honor and, there is no single word in our language that can describe the courage these boys and men had.
Maybe bmaz or other Attorneys around here could answer the question regarding the legality (or prior judicial precedent) of shoot to kill orders on American citizens. Any judicial rulings ever on that?
I don’t look down my nose at you; I recoil from you in horror. I recoil from the mentality that the U.S. government and U.S. citizens have the right to intervene anywhere for whatever reason the government cooks up. I recoil from that mentality and the actions it unleashes and justifies, here and abroad.
The Phoenix program “worked“? Even if it had — which I dispute — “worked” according to the debased standards of “destroying VC infrastructure” and “saving several hundred U.S. lives”, it would have done so at the cost of the torture and murder by U.S. troops and operatives of thousands of Vietnamese noncombatants. And all in the service of goals we had no business pursuing in the first place.
I’m not at all ignorant of what is done in my name. I’ve been fighting it since I became aware of it, at a young age.
The U.S. committed atrocities in the second world war, for which it has never adequately accounted (in the senses of both truth-telling and atonement). But that war was of a whole order of difference from and not remotely relevant to U.S. wars of choice like our aggression in Viet Nam (and expansion of the war to the whole region), the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and the endless occupation of Afghanistan. Those have all been instigated and maintained on the basis of lies, have effectively become wars on the entire population, and are decade-and-more-long exercises in crimes against humanity.
It was successful Nell, just google it.
But Op Phoenix from 35 years ago doesn’t apply here, everything is completely different. The only similar thing is maybe, (huge maybe) is a sniper targeting Anwar al-Awlaki. Only thing similar.
Most of the guys that participated in Phoenix(and there weren’t very many) are still with us today.
You are pretty quick to jump to conclusions, aren’t you?
Bob in AZ
Or how about we just withdraw from the region and take our Special Operations with us? Who the hell are we to tell any nation how to live? Let’s be honest, as horrible as 9/11 was, it isn’t like we didn’t have it coming. We don’t rule the world, only fools would assume that people would not seek revenge. We have exploited the world throughout the 20th century and God forbid one driven group of men with hate in their hearts and not caring if they die, did what you’d expect.
Innocent people did die that day, but the US has done just as bad if not worse. Perhaps that wasn’t the intention of the death we’ve sewn, but we always seem to have that pesky collateral damage.
We have enough problems and anyway Osama won. We’re bankrupt and can’t afford this crap. We need to get home and dismantle our military, try to rebuild our economy from the shit hole it has become over the last 30 years.
I’ll try and make a slightly different argument.
The USA did not have it coming on 9/11. We (and those that were killed and injured along with their families) did not deserve it.
But I’d like someone to explain how anything we’re doing in Iraq or even Afghanistan will prevent another 9/11.
I simply don’t see the prevention here.
The get out part I agree with. BUT, if you just let the guilty go free then they keep pushing-the old commie saying that America was a toothless giant-and push more and more until they are stopped. OBL attacked us. We had a great chance to kill him at Tora Bora, until Rumsfeld fucked it up. We have to kill or capture the ones who are trying to do the same to us. Do I think that our military is bloated? OH HELL YES. We spend more than the entire rest of the world combined. Have to keep the corporations going don’t we? Yet for all our might the way wars have evolved it is simply like killing a fly with a sledge hammer.
I have spent time in more than 30 countries during my life. The ones whose citizens are the safest anywhere in the world, besides the US, are Israel and South Korea. Us because we have the biggest freekin military in the world and no one is quite sure what we will do if our citizens are messed with too much. Israel and South Korea because if someone messes with their citizens they will do what is needed, kill the ones who did in their citizens, and all the bad guys know it. Its why the pirates from Somolia are taking over so many ships. Because the various Navies are simply either letting go the “suspected” pirates or turning them over to a court. So, what did we do a few hundred years ago when the pirate problem got to big? We-several countries-caught and killed them. The current problem is that we are acting “civilized” and the pirates are not.
It happens all over the world, and in lite of the censorship that exists-not govt, but corporate-we never hear about those who die because we did nothing.
Nope, doing nothing is not an option. But we could easily cut our Army by 90%. Demobb all the main force units into reserve and guard units. Keep spec ops from all services. Cut the Navy by 75%. 2 A/C carrier fleets should be enough. Our embassy people in Iran were taken because the new Iran govt rightly assumed that we would do nothing. Ever wonder why, during the entire time of crazyness in the mideast, every terror group left the USSR alone? Well, it was because during the early 60s one mideast terror group captured tortured and killed several USSR embassy people. What did the USSR do? They hunted down every person involved and not only killed them but killed their families as well. It worked quite well as no one to this day bothers any Russians anywhere in the world. Oh, well what about Chetneya? Well, that is a war, not a bunch of terrorists and besides, the USSR/Russian Army has always been piss poor. Simply due to the way they treat their soldiers. We planned for a war with the USSR for 40 years, they outmanned us by well over 1 million men, plus thousands of tanks. But they never tried to attack, did they? The war that the USSR had with China back in the 50s and early 60s had much to do with that.
If you do not protect what you have you will not have it for long. But we took our being totally unprepared for WWII and turned ourselves into the worlds largest most high tech military. Now we do not know how to downsize. BTW, we used to have a 700 ship Navy. And over 2000 planes in our AF. And almost a million man Army. So that we could fight 2 wars in different parts of the world. Like Germany and Japan.
Really?!? That rather makes a mockery of the big to-do Israel makes about shells fired into their territory, and people who turn themselves into bombs. Or the murder of Rachel Corrie. I guess the Israeli government has paranoid delusions. Or maybe they’re just liers.
Bob in AZ
But timr, who was Phoenix targeting?
Were they not Identifiable Combat Commanders or others?
i.e. others being Carlos’ equivalent opponents …
They were hardcore VC and NVA cadre. Which we identified thru infiltration and spys. Not the way we swept up people in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nor did we have idiots doing interrogation. We had people who could get information out of anyone, without torture of any kind, because they understood people.
“Phoenix worked”?
Well, besides the cold-bloodness of supporting a massive assassination and torture effort, you are wrong even on the facts of its efficacy. Here’s what Stan Fulcher, the former Binh Dinh Province Phoenix coordinator had to say (see pp. 420-421 of Douglas Valentine’s The Phoenix Project):
Phoenix was an essential part of the counterinsurgency program. It can’t be separated from that. You are arguing for mass terror on the scale of the Nazis to pacify a sovereign country the U.S. seeks to control.
20,000 people assassinated (Colby’s own estimate), thousands more tortured. This is what you advocate?
Thanks so much for your attention to this destruction of the Constitution, not to mention lives. This should be screaming hot news, day after day, until the WH stops, until the Congress reasserts the power of the Constitution through statutes forbidding this.
And we should be marching. If there are any people out there who know how to organize a “million-person” march, and how to publicize it, I hope you are planning it. Fewer people can make it due to economic conditions, but it seems so needed. I’d wager that many, many Americans do not even realize this is happening. And we’ve seen how well our activism has worked to change WH policy. Maybe a huge march would get their attention.
This killing of citizens (and most non-citizens) with no due process has to stop. The movie Syriana illustrates the invitation to corruption and the deaths of good people that this “policy” brings.
Great post. And let me ask the rhetorical question:
The only people with standing to challenge in a court of law this declaration to kill without judicial oversight are the US citizens on the kill list?
Alright folks, I don’t know how a battle here has set up between those that have served or not or whatever; but there is no real basis for it. Let’s get back to the point at hand and not at pointing fingers at each other.
heh bmaz
Has there been any judicial ruling on the legality (or prior judicial precedent) of shoot to kill orders on American citizens.
Any judicial rulings ever on that?
I am not aware of any, but they may well exist; I just do not know, it is not an area I have ever had to confront before.
Let’s hope it’s an area you never have to confront
@bmaz: This has eff-all to do with military vets vs. non-vets. This has to do with the main point of the post — with the supposed right of the U.S. government to have armed operatives (whether military or “intelligence”) be judge, jury, and executioner.
Some think that’s entirely right and normal as long as the targets are not U.S. citizens, and only raise questions when that “bright line” is breached. Others see the explicit targeting of U.S. citizens in this way as an opportunity to reflect on the imperial mindset that justifies such actions against other people. Timr is the imperial mindset personified.
That is why I included the “or whatever” clause. My point is, same as yesterday on the emotionally charged video thread, this is an emotional and dark subject matter, the people here, including you and our new friend librty, have a variety of backgrounds, beliefs and conclusions, not everybody agrees on everything and that is fine, but are all engaging in good faith.
The closest I am aware of is former GI’s (believe them actually to have been A.F.) that defected to the North and were assisting at POW camps, fake debriefing and such.
An order was given to execute if provided the opportunity (a team was sent). But they were GI’s that had defected and were traitors. UCMJ allows for that.
I believe Senator Kerry and Senator Smiths’ Select Committee on POW/MIA’s in 93/94 covered it.
Timr makes the case above for targeted assassinations by U.S. operatives/military, and for our government’s participation in a multinational campaign against the international crime of piracy involving process-less execution (or possibly show trials followed by executions). In good faith.
Dick Cheney makes my flesh crawl, too. His views on executive power, torture, and military aggression are equally horrifying to me whether he argues them in good faith or as a pure, cynical whatever’s-good-for-Dick-Cheney move. The real-world results are a spiraling cycle of suffering and disaster.
As are the real-world results of timr’s p.o.v. I’ve not imputed bad faith to him, simply characterized the substance of the p.o.v. as horrifying. Fear no escalation, though. I’ll be logging out, to read but not comment further.
And if no one stands up to Tyranny and speaks?
The logging-off and not commenting is for me, for this evening. I’m pretty sure this won’t seriously diminish the amount of standing up to Tyranny going on at EW, or in the world at large.
You know you always are welcome and have a home here; I am only interested in making sure things don’t roll off the tracks as we got semi-close to yesterday, which you were not a part of.