A Trial Showing Torture Was Unnecessary

I’m not amused that the Wall Street Journal solicited an op-ed attacking the decision to try KSM in civilian court from one of the people–John Yoo–with the biggest conflict on such a decision. It’s yet more proof that Rupert Murdoch is engaged in a partisan pursuit, even with the WSJ.

But I am amused at the way John Yoo dismantles his own argument. Take these two claims, for example:

Prosecutors will be forced to reveal U.S. intelligence on KSM, the methods and sources for acquiring its information, and his relationships to fellow al Qaeda operatives. The information will enable al Qaeda to drop plans and personnel whose cover is blown. It will enable it to detect our means of intelligence-gathering, and to push forward into areas we know nothing about.

[snip]

For a preview of the KSM trial, look at what happened in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker who was arrested in the U.S. just before 9/11. His trial never made it to a jury. Moussaoui’s lawyers tied the court up in knots.

All they had to do was demand that the government hand over all its intelligence on him. The case became a four-year circus, giving Moussaoui a platform to air his anti-American tirades. The only reason the trial ended was because, at the last minute, Moussaoui decided to plead guilty. That plea relieved the government of the choice between allowing a fishing expedition into its intelligence files or dismissing the charges.

The first claim suggests the prosecutors will have to reveal all the information they’ve got against KSM. That’s a lie, one that presumably Professor Yoo knows is a lie. Eric Holder has made it quite clear that there is some set of evidence–much of it not public yet–that should be enough to prove KSM’s guilt, independent of all the information they collected pursuant to Yoo’s opinions authorizing torturing KSM.

And I highly doubt that Yoo’s really worried about revealing the details of other al Qaeda figures. We’ve already worked our way through about seven new generations of “al Qaeda Number Threes” since we captured KSM, so I doubt the network looks anything like it did when KSM had first-hand knowledge of it. Besides, if after eight years of waging full-scale war against al Qaeda we haven’t captured these people, then chances are we either won’t or can’t.

You know–can’t. Like Osama bin Laden.

Of course, what John Yoo is really worried about are precisely those sources and methods: that is, torture. He’s worried that prosecutors may have to reveal the details of the torture they did to KSM.

So turn now to Moussaoui. What Yoo is really talking about when he invokes the length of Moussaoui’s trial is his demand to interview–or in some way introduce evidence from, disproving the charges against him–top al Qaeda detainees: Abu Zubaydah and Ramzi bin al-Shibh among them.

The delay, of course, came from the Administration’s refusal to turn over that evidence, much less to allow Moussaoui to interview them.

The delay came, at least partly, because the CIA was busy destroying tapes that might have shown that prosecutors had the wrong charges against Moussaoui.

The delay, in short, was not because of anything Moussaoui was doing. It was because of things CIA was doing to protect Yoo, among others.

Now it’s conceivable that KSM would try to call Abu Zubaydah to testify at trial; but now that we all know Abu Zubaydah was tortured on Yoo’s advice, there’s no big reason to prevent KSM from introducing evidence from AZ.

Now that Yoo’s crimes have been exposed, there just isn’t going to be the hold-up created over the need to introduce evidence from those who might exonerate KSM or the others (and AZ did not, apparently, do so).

But there’s one further premise that makes this entire argument wrong. Yoo’s concerns about the exposure of torture-related information–to the extent that they might be valid–are all premised on the notion that the only information we got is so secret that introducing it at trial would violate sources and methods. Aside from the issue of competency hearings (which I think does risk exposing details on torture), torture (and illegal wiretapping–but it wouldn’t be illegal against any of these terrorists) would only be exposed if that’s the only kind of evidence the government has.

And Eric Holder is convinced there’s plenty that comes from clean sources.

John Yoo pretends he knows the universe of information on KSM. His argument suggests that the only evidence came from illegal or highly sensitive means.

What the trial will likely show, instead, is that there was a great deal of information already available before they started torturing KSM. It’ll show that the KSM expert in FBI–who we know was never allowed to get close to the Yoo-sanctioned torture sessions–knew much if not all of the stuff that KSM was blabbing away after being waterboarded the 183rd time.

That’s the real risk for Yoo: not the illegal actions that the trial will expose. But how much evidence there was independent of Yoo’s little torture shop.

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39 replies
  1. Jim White says:

    John Yoo pretends he knows the universe of information on KSM. His argument suggests that the only evidence came from illegal or highly sensitive means.

    What the trial will likely show, instead, is that there was a great deal of information already available before the started torturing KSM. It’ll show that the KSM expert in FBI–who we know was never allowed to get close to the Yoo-sanctioned torture sessions–knew much if not all of the stuff that KSM was blabbing away after being waterboarded the 183rd time.

    I suspect that if litigated fully, KSM’s trial will have many surprises for Yoo. Given the Bush administration’s penchant for compartmentalizing information, I fully expect that the only KSM intelligence of which Yoo would be aware is that for which he enabled illegal means. There would have been no reason for (and several reasons against) Yoo having any awareness of the legally gathered intelligence.

    • emptywheel says:

      More importantly there would be a reason NOT to show him the information, bc doing so would make him aware that the entire premise for his torture memo was false.

      • emptywheel says:

        Remember that the CIA IG Report said that one of the problems with the torture was that analysts were so ignorant that they had the torture driving off of what they imagined, rather than what other people in government actually knew.

        183 waterboards is a lot of mistaken assumptions on the part of the analysts.

  2. Leen says:

    “What the trial will likely show, instead, is that there was a great deal of information already available before the started torturing KSM. It’ll show that the KSM expert in FBI–who we know was never allowed to get close to the Yoo-sanctioned torture sessions–knew much if not all of the stuff that KSM was blabbing away after being waterboarded the 183rd time.”

    Does anyone know what has happened to KSM’s children?

    “And Eric Holder is convinced there’s plenty that comes from clean sources.”

    The word “clean” sure jumped out at me

  3. Loo Hoo. says:

    Yoo:

    The lawyers in the Bush administration—I was one—understood that military commissions could guarantee a fair trial while protecting national security secrets from excessive exposure.

    Well then why the hell didn’t they give ’em a fair trial? What, they ran out of time?

  4. klynn says:

    More importantly there would be a reason NOT to show him the information, bc doing so would make him aware that the entire premise for his torture memo was false.

    This comment could be another post.

    My question, who does Rupert Murdoch help in running this — that happens to be a high-value, self-interest for Murdoch?

  5. Mary says:

    I think Yoo is also concerned that a legitimate trial would also demonstrate very clearly how freely Yoo and Bush/Cheneyco have lied to protect themselves on the torture front. If you have lawyers who do their due diligence on facts (apparently not all that likely from what DOJ has become) and lawyers who act with integrity and truthfulness (wildly unlikely based on what DOJ has demonstrated on the torture cases so far – understandable given its roles) than all that bull about AZ being responsible for info on who bin al Shibh was and on KSM’s safehouse, etc. will have a legal record to dispute it.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/2009/01/the_unsupportable_defense_of_t/pf.html

    Zubaydah did not, as Thiessen asserts, provide information that led to bin al Shibh’s capture. Bin al Shibh was captured almost half a year after Zubayda was, and Suskind reported that the key information about his location came not from Zubaydah but from an al-Jazeera reporter who had interviewed bin al Shibh and KSM at their safehouse apartment in Karachi. The reporter passed the information to his superiors, who passed the information to al-Jazeera’s owner, the Emir of Qatar — a friend of the CIA — who then passed it to Langley.

    Zubaydah did not, as Thiessen asserts, provide information that led to KSM’s capture. Suskind reported that a tipster — a “walk in” — led the CIA directly to KSM and subsequently collected a $25 million reward.

    Something like the Emir of Qatar as a source for Tenet, passing on al-Jazeera info, is something that would probably fall loosely under sources, but it’s not likely that the Emir is going to be giving up something more important than what he’s already given – he’s not exactly an unknown at this point.

    • emptywheel says:

      That’s sort of my point.

      Heck, one thing they might have to introduce is the underlying intell leading up to the August 2001 report labelling KSM as Mukhtar. Which sort of undermines the AZ nabbing KSM claim.

      The way I see it is if Holder sees a compelling set of clean evidence, then it by definition refutes what DOJ has been saying for 8 years AND proves that torture was unnecesary.

        • emptywheel says:

          Oh, I’m not saying he’s doing it with any intent to expose torture.

          I’m saying that info is there, we know it’s there, and we know it was systematically compartmented away from those who authorized torture (except, presumably, Dick). It’ll take DFHs like us noting that that was all there and proof that torture was unnecessary to make the point.

      • Mary says:

        Yeah, I knew it was a part of it, I just wanted to highlight more that part. Not only would they be showing that they didn’t need torture to go to trial but going to trial will also show that they have lied about the success of their torture.

        So is it not a good morning to say, “Go Colts?”

        • emptywheel says:

          You can say “Go Colts” if you want. I can’t begrudge Manning doing the same thing he’s done all year, figure out how to win, even in a series of games when on paper they lost.

          He’s an astoundingly good football player. Doesn’t mean I have to like him. But I gotta acknowledge his greatness.

  6. Ralph says:

    The sheer irrational, lying audacity of Yoo and his pals is stunning. Their torture techniques are state secrets? Well, naturally they do want them kept secret.

    The whole thing is just too disgusting to contemplate. People like John Yoo threw our Republic into the trash, in broad daylight, in front of a global audience.

    Though I’m not an adherent of Marat, I do think John Yoo should be waterboarded 183 times, or at least until he admits his crimes.

  7. klynn says:

    If Murdoch continues to allow for such op-eds, should the time come, will he too be considered an agent to torture?

    Maybe he needs to think twice about his editorial policies at his media outlets.

  8. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Unless the Devil not only exists but is loose upon the world, there is no reason to obey God. A lesson J. Edgar Hoover knew well in concocting his “10 most wanted” villains. No one made the list until the FBI had them in their sights.

    If it were not Osama or the Anthrax man, then “terrorism” or some other villain must fill the void. But that’s political chicanery, not national security.

  9. Arbusto says:

    How can any court, given competent defense counsel, separate clean from evidence tainted at some point during its acquisition (given Bushcos love of short cuts and extra judicial shenanigans)? Seems to me it’d be a labyrinthine effort for the persecution and hard for a jury to separate one from the other.

  10. rxbusa says:

    Did you see that some conservative leaders came out and said STFU with the fearmongering? Via TPM

    I was kinda wondering when our nation became such a bunch of chickenshits that we couldn’t trust the institutions we supposedly send soldiers to die to protect.

  11. Ralph says:

    By any reasonable standard, KSM and many others have already endured a great deal of summary punishment. Now they are going to find them either guilty or innocent? The whole thing is just too ridiculous.

  12. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    Besides, if after eight years of waging full-scale war against al Qaeda we haven’t captured these people, then chances are we either won’t or can’t.

    Well, given the news that we’re funding the Taliban by funneling money via ‘security contractors’ to Karzai’s government pals (on the pretext that if we pay enough baksheesh, they won’t shoot our soldiers), I’d say the ‘won’t’ part of the argument is gaining velocity.

  13. WTFOver says:

    Newsflash: John Yoo is Still a Moron ( and a War Criminal )

    http://www.bernardfinel.com/?p=895

    There is something extremely disconcerting about Yoo writing about these issues without some clear disclaimer, such as “my opinions may reflect my own desire to avoid prosecution and disbarment over my criminal acts and professional misconduct during the Bush Administration.”

    • RevBev says:

      And that he has shown himself to be a liar, so I do wonder why he is called on to give his useless opinion.

  14. tjbs says:

    Can a person who was water tortured 183 “pours” and lived in a Gulag for six years, listening to a continuous torture of others, really assist in his defense the same as someone who was treated humanly ?

    Could defense compel the production of, live, in the Judges chambers the kids ?
    I could argue, I would say anything and suffer death to ensure my children were unharmed. Is he different?

  15. Hmmm says:

    Maybe I’m looking at this funny, but the two torture-related outcomes from this trial that I can see from the POV of today are 1) the clean evidence carries the day and KSM’s defense team are denied access to torture-related evidence as immaterial since none of it is being introduced by the prosecution team; 2) the clean evidence doesn’t do the trick so either a) a plea bargain happens, or b) craptastic fruit-of-torture evidence is introduced and a huge shitstorm ensues with the end result being all fingers pointing at the clearly previously designated fall-guy John Yoo. In none of those scenarios do I see even a mild likelihood of final fingers pointing at White House office holders.

    Given that (and I may be quite wrong about all that), one possible motive for Murdoch to run this Yoo piece at this time would be to start the positioning of Yoo as the fallback fall guy target as insurance against the eventuality that trial winds up going south for them.

  16. perris says:

    yoo’s nightmare; A Trial Showing Torture Was Unnecessary

    it’s worse then that, the trial will show torture was counter productive and impeded the gathering of information and if the lawyers play their cards right, getting the prosecution to open the door on effectiveness, they can show the torture program recruited more terrorists

    this is yoo’s nightmare, not only the fact that it will show torture unecessary but showing it destroyed our only hope for success

  17. ART45 says:

    When I go to a doctor, I submit totally.

    I’ve learned some doctors are better than others.

    Yoo speaks and expects others to submit to his words.

    I’ve learned fucks like Yoo are both smart and stupid.

    They fuck us over because they’re smart.

    They’re stupid because their thinking is completely flawed.

  18. PeterHug says:

    You know, I really do think I would like to see the Government produce the kids – or at least demonstrate that they’re OK.

    Because I really don’t think they are, when you come right down to it. And that should put a number of people in jail.

  19. Blub says:

    Yoo’s just the apparatchik. A criminal who facilitated crimes.. The real travesty is that the “buck stops over there” mentality in WDC is going to let those ultimately responsible walk – Dick Cheney, George W Bush. They gave the orders to shred our constitution and end the rule of law. Let’s not forget that.

  20. georgewalton says:

    Yoo is the consummate intellectual. He lives in a world of words by and large. His words define and defend other words; words which have in turn already been defined and defended by words he had collected previously.

    Once you accept your own definitions, your own conviction about what words mean, you can then make them define and defend [and, of course, rationalize] virtually any human behavior. But what does Yoo know about terrorism or war or torture or injustice or the human pain and suffering that sprouts willy nilly from them—the nitty gritty grime of the real world where these words are used eyeball to eyeball to inflict the most barbaric atrocities against others.

    Instead, he embodies the banality of evil when it has access to those fully capable of going out into the world with the most sophisticated arsenal of WMD known to man. BushWorld, for example. And now, perhaps, ObamaLand?

  21. boloboffin says:

    I don’t recall knowing that Osama was handed that list of suspected operatives on a “silver platter” before. Even if you allow for hyperbole in description, Yoo appears to be speaking of a specific event. How it is we know that Osama got that list? I believe Yoo has revealed another intelligence-gathering operation.

    Of course, it’s alright if you’re a Republican trying to cover up your many crimes against the rule of law.

  22. fangorn1 says:

    Yoo probably is an intellectual, but his arguments employ sophistry and cynicism. I view him as as a second rate propogandist, sycophant, and enabler.

  23. timbo says:

    All these so-called secrets haven’t been able to catch OBL…so, um, why are we keeping them secret? So we won’t be able to catch OBL? I mean, seriously, all these so-called secret methods have resulted in what exactly? So, for Yoo and his crowd, it is much more likely that they are trying to avoid embarrassment…and the US government is trying to avoid culpability in illegal behavior and war crimes? What’s more likely? That these secret methods have not been able to catch OBL for eight years and will suddenly start working sometime in the future to catch OBL? Or that it’s more embarassing to the US to admit all the incompetence and criminality?

    Good show and a great post–and let’s hope that there are some rational journalists out there that will actually analyze the incompetent and self-serving statements of these thugs and tortures…so that America will be safer and more responsible.

  24. geminorange says:

    Does anyone think that John Yoo is setting up the defense that he is mind-bogglingly incompetent that it was physically and mentally impossible for him to generate the intent to commit war crimes?

  25. cregan says:

    This misunderstand the purpose of the torture. Those actions were taken to stop future attacks, not to gain evidence that could convict KSM. In that sense, since no attacks occurred until Hasan shot up Fort Hood, the bottom line goal was met. You can argue whether useful information came, etc., but the bottom line is still there and cannot be altered at this point.

    Nothing will change the fact that no attacks occurred before Bush left office. That is permanent.

    But, certainly, it looks like the trial may very well show that you can torture someone and STILL convict them in a court of law with full Constitutional protections.

    In that sense, it would have been much better to try them in military tribunals so that this point was never made and proven.

    Worse, should any of the five be acquitted, and then re-arrested (as Holder and others have said would likely happen) what message is THAT going to send to the world–you can get acquitted and we’re still going to hold you. That doesn’t look very good.

    • bmaz says:

      To get evidence of coming attacks was the stated purpose for the masses. It may well have been one of the purposes; however, the evidence seems incontovertible that they were also torturing to derive statements consistent with what the Bush Administration had already stated as justification and fact for their actions – i.e. they tortured to get false corroboration for their lies.

      Secondly, it is false that there were no other attacks; there was the anthrax matter and there were a myriad of attacks on allied interests overseas.

      Lastly, your last three paragraphs could quite easily be the case under military commissions as well, so that is a false dichotomy you have drawn.

    • Hmmm says:

      …since no attacks occurred until Hasan shot up Fort Hood, the bottom line goal was met.

      Confuses correlation with causation. More supporting evidence or logic, please?

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