if we torture, our enemies will be more likely to torture.

Or perhaps not. The rest of the world may not have met the depravity levels reached in the United States.

Dickless Cheney and Twitchy Bush, The Hague ‘10

Hey all, please pardon the cannonball comment here. I’m just jumping in to say I am so sick and tired of the nationalsecuritytrumpscivilliberties argument. sick sick sick of it.

For all the testosterone driven insanity that leads us to torture rape and kill ######## people, it seems other countries should be more afraid of us. And it seems, why are the national security promoters so frigging scared if they are so friggin’ macho??? Sayin’ Bring it on! Locked and Loaded! Let’s fight them over there because we’re chickenhawks baby!!!

Make. It. Stop.

O/T, and housekeeping, in more ways than one: Yesterday I became a free woman (well, more or less, within reason). So I just did something I’ve wanted to do for a long time, which is toddle up to the thermometer on the top right and raise its heat a little. I did not do this in honour of Joe Klein, for sure — if anything, he reminded me of how much I owe EW especially and others like GG and all the wonderful commenters here. Que l’on continue.

The Bush-era would-be he-men are pathetically ignorant of military history, despite their supposed “national security” credentials. They seem to imagine that the laws of war were adopted by the Woodstock generation in order to Make the World a More Loving Place. But, in fact, the laws of war were adopted for cold, hard military reasons. Even the concern for the treatment of prisoners that you mention has had humanitarian interests grafted on more or less after the fact (not that I’m knocking that).

Up until the 18th century, European wars were fought largely by mercenaries. In the Middle Ages, professional soldiers could make substantial fortunes by capturing prominent opponents and ransoming them back. Naturally, one had to keep them in good condition in order to get top dollar. Part of the deal was normally “parole”–the captive’s word as a gentlemen that he wouldn’t return to the fight and come after you. Naturally, you couldn’t mistreat him much and still expect him to keep to his parole.

Our subsequent rules for handling prisoners evolved out of this. By the 15th century, mercenaries were extending te practice of parole to each other as a sort of professional courtesy. In time, armies realized that treating prisoners well boosted the morale of one’s own troops while potentially demoralizing the enemy. George Washington’s order on the treatment of prisoners anticipated both effects.

Medical care of the kind pioneered by Florence Nightingale in the Crimea and by the Federal Army in the US Civil War came about because it reduced the wastage in troops–the wounded could often be recycled into the battle if treated promptly–and, critically, because it increased morale. Soldiers have always been more terrified of being left wounded on the battlefield than of being killed outright. Soldiers with good medical care will face fire more readily than those without.

Rules for the treatment of civilians evolved out of the problems of siege warfare in the Middle Ages. When the walls of a town were breached, the besieging army would generally disintegrate in the rush to loot, rape, and burn. The defenders might rally and destroy the attackers under these conditions or a relief force might arrive and attack while the victors were helpless. The fix was to have the Provost Martial hang any man who broke ranks, stole, murdered, or raped–the birth of the MPs and JAGs.

By World War II, we had learned that good treatment was the single best way to extract critical intelligence from an enemy. The more “inhuman” the enemy the better, in fact–Japanese troops behaved so horribly to their own prisoners that their gratitude when in American hands made them perfect collaborators.

I could go on and on. But, as with so much that is now wrong with America, it all boils down to substituting the unimaginative, unconsidered opinions of foolish people for real knowledge. We lost the so-called war on terror because we relied on the comic-book fantasies of spoiled, sadistic little boys rather than the collective wisdom of soldiers and statesmen spanning centuries.

I am late to the conversation- forgive me if this has been stated.
Another reason #5 or 6
Torturers will return to “regular” society with the blood on their hands. They will melt into real life. Those with regard for humanity will have post traumatic syndrome; those harden or embolden by their inhumanity will be dangerous
(BTW Don’t we put people in prison in regular life for things they have done)

The acolyte said it best:

So [Joe] turns the attack onto Greenwald and, for make weight on myself, poor lowly acolyte that I am—not because we aren’t honestly reading him and wrestling with his work but precisely because we are.

william ockham @3

quotes joe kline thusly:

“There’s another part of Klein’s argument that really bothers me. The first paragraph of his screed starts out like this:

Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet. That such a thing would happen is unfortunate, and dishonorable, but sadly inevitable, I suppose. I ignored the first case, in which a rather pathetic woman acolyte of Greenwald’s published a hyperbolic account of a conversation I had with her at a beach picnic on Cape Cod. …”

let’s see,

time magazine journalist joe kline is upset – upset about having his communications bruited about the internet?

would this be the same joe kline who waylaid the clintons with a contemptuous anonymous novel after previously professing near-worshipful admiration for bill clinton?

poor little fellow.

poor whining little puppy.

when stephen brill was publishing the media criticism magazine “brill’s content” he used to say that all journalists should go through the hell of one of the media firestorms they routinely visit on others.

i agree.

“Since the torture issue came up I have always felt that this was the most important thing – how we treat others is the marker on how others will treat our people when captured. “

No, the issue is really whether we are willing to me monsters, or not. Nothing more, nothing less.