ACLU’s Latest Lawsuit: Suing to Get the 2002 Convention Against Torture Opinion

The ACLU sued the CIA and other government agencies today for still more documents relating to torture. They’re basically suing to enforce a FOIA request they submitted last year that amounts to … everything they haven’t already gotten. 

1. "Any indices, tables, or logs that list or otherwise identify legal memoranda produced by the Office of Legal Counsel (‘OLC’) after September 11, 2001, relating to the detention, interrogation, treatment, or prosecution of suspected terrorists, or the transfer of suspected terrorists to foreign countries, including any indices, tables, or logs produced in response to the subpoena issued by the Senate Judiciary Committee to Attorney General Michael Mukasey on October 21, 2008.

2. "All legal memoranda produced by the OLC after September 11, 2001, relating to the detention, interrogation, treatment, or prosecution of suspected terrorists, or the transfer of suspected terrorists to foreign countries.

3. "All records issued after September 11, 2001 by the Defense Department, Justice Department, State Department, or CIA, in which any of those agencies, or personnel at those agencies, sought guidance, advice, or analysis from the White Housel with respect to the detention, interrogation, treatment, or prosecution of suspected terrorists, or the transfer of suspected terrorists to foreign countries.

4. "All records, including directives and memoranda, that were issued after September 11, 2001 by the White House to the Defense Department, Justice Department, State Department, or CIA, or to specific personnel at those agencies, and that relate to the detention, interrogation, treatment, or prosecution of suspected terrorists, or the transfer of suspected terrorists to foreign countries.

But in their press release announcing the suit, the ACLU describes three documents in particular they’re seeking.

  1. Documents between the White House and CIA concerning the use of the CIA’s so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques"
  2. A legal memorandum or letter dated July 22, 2002 from Yoo to Alberto R. Gonzales regarding the applicability of the Convention Against Torture
  3. A 2007 opinion by Bradbury analyzing the legality of the interrogation techniques authorized for use in the CIA program under Common Article 3, the Detainee Treatment Act and the War Crimes Act

Item one would include the discussions about approval for individual techniques (and might catch David Addington chatting up John Rizzo).

Item three is one of the two remaining torture memos we’re missing, where Bradbury tried to authorize things SCOTUS had already ruled were illegal. This is the memo, remember, that justified Bush’s July 2007 Executive Order on torture.

I’m particularly interested in item two, though. I noted yesterday that I think we’re going to learn that the Bush Administration claimed to have exempted CIA from complying with the Convention Against Torture’s prohibition on cruel and inhuman treatment. This opinion–which was mentioned in John Yoo’s 2003 torture memo for DOD–apparently claims to exempt everyone from complying with Article 16 of CAT. 

Here’s how Yoo’s memo referred to this earlier memo (which he also wrote):

Article 16, like the other first 15 articles in the treaty, is non-self executing. The United States took a reservation to this section, as with the other first fifteen articles, that this section was non-self executing. As explained in text, therefore they not only "are not federal law cognizable in federal court, they also place no obligations on the Executive Branch." Letter for Alberto R. Gonzales, Counsel to the President, from John C. Yoo, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, at 1 (July 22,2002).

Keep in mind the implications of this opinion. As reviewed in the SSCI narrative, the Bush Administration told Congress over and over and over that they fully intended to comply with CAT’s Article 16.

In January of 2005, in response to a question for the record following his confirmation hearing, Attorney General Gonzales indicated that “the Administration . . . wants to be in compliance with the relevant substantive constitutional standard incorporated in Article 16 [of the Convention Against Torture], even if such compliance is not legally required.”

[snip]

Before the passage of the Detainee Treatment Act, in October of 2005, the Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General for OLC noted in response to questions for the record: “[I]t is our policy to abide by the substantive constitutional standard incorporated into Article 16 even if such compliance is not legally required, regardless of whether the detainee in question is held in the United States or overseas.” Similarly, in December of 2005, both the Secretary of State and the National Security Adviser stated publicly that U.S. policy was to treat detainees abroad in accordance with the prohibition on cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment contained in Article 16.

And in fact, this claim–that the Administration intended to comply with CAT’s Article 16–is one of the things that Mary McCarthy has alleged a senior CIA official lied to Congress about in a briefing in June 2005 (a briefing, incidentally, that the CIA didn’t list in its torture briefing list). 

A senior CIA official, meeting with Senate staff in a secure room of the Capitol last June, promised repeatedly that the agency did not violate or seek to violate an international treaty that bars cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of detainees, during interrogations it conducted in the Middle East and elsewhere.

But another CIA officer — the agency’s deputy inspector general, who for the previous year had been probing allegations of criminal mistreatment by the CIA and its contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan — was startled to hear what she considered an outright falsehood, according to people familiar with her account. It came during the discussion of legislation that would constrain the CIA’s interrogations.

You see, we’re eventually going to find out that, in fact, the Administration had–based on Yoo’s 2002 memo–made a policy decision to blow off complying with CAT’s Article 16 altogether. And lied about that policy to Congress repeatedly. 

I wonder whether we’ll get this opinion before the SSCI completes its investigation into all the times the Administration lied about this to the SSCI?

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77 replies
  1. emptywheel says:

    And note–for Mary–it is not insignificant that they decided to address what would include hte preliminaries several months into their interrogation of Abu Zubaydah.

    • Mary says:

      I really think that, although it was GITMO and not black sites, the investigation and feedback from the CIA officer who papered out a memo in Aug 2002 (that they knew was coming earlier I’d bet) asserting war crimes were being committed had to be some stimulus.

      Like I’ve said before, verbals and emails and notes and letters are all well and good, but nothing highlights the OMG factor fo the lawyers like having someone paper the file with a summary of what crime(s) they think you are currently complicit in. Bc suddenly no one is going to be real comfy with their response to that memo being, “well, I think Fredo said we were ok” They’d want a reliance opinion. IMO, FWIW.

      Just a sidenote ramble, but Gov’s theory, that no one could use US courts to object to their offshore torture, originaly won the day in the July 30th, 2002 ruling on Rasul. That set the stage for Yoo to breath a kind of a sigh of relief going into this Aug memos, bc he was thinking the likelihood was that none of the kidnap for torture victims would ever be able to get past that first hump – getting a court to give them habeas. And this was reinforced by the appellate concurrence in Sept, 2002, preceding the torture field trip by DOJ, WH, OVP et al lawyers and Thompson signing off on sending Arar to Syrian torture.

  2. plunger says:

    “You see, we’re eventually going to find out that, in fact, the Administration had–based on Yoo’s 2002 memo–made a policy decision to blow off complying with CAT’s Article 16 altogether. And lied about that policy to Congress repeatedly.”

    Gee, what Vice President of the United States would be so arrogant in that time frame to make such a self-serving and illegal determination? I’m sure everyone will find it incredibly hard to believe that Dick Cheney would say anything like:

    “so?”

    • emptywheel says:

      Thanks for the reminder. THey’ve actually got a shiny ad up there in the corner advertising their shiny new Accountability project. I think if you click though and give that way, it’s a twofer.

        • emptywheel says:

          Thanks acquarius. I’m much more of a parasite on ACLU than I am on NYT. Though I like to think I’m more like that bird that cleans the hippo’s teeth.

        • phred says:

          LOL — that is a delightful image, thanks for that : )

          By the way, the ACLU in MA had a fundraiser a few weeks ago. We wrote them a big fat check. I don’t know where we would be without them…

        • acquarius74 says:

          LOL, what an imagination – but come to think of it…the CIA is somewhat like a hippo. Like to live dangerously, do you?

    • Leen says:

      they don’t hate us for our freedoms..they hate us for putting our military bases on their lands to protect our access to our freedom Their(oil).

      We are junkies

  3. Aeon says:

    In addition to the three documents that particularly interest the ACLU, one might also eagerly await — per the request for State Dept docs — the Zelikow objection and the paper trail surrounding that memo’s withdrawal.

    • emptywheel says:

      Hopefully, that’ll get liberated by more direct means. But admittedly, the ACLU has done the yeoman’s work on this, with a few other human rights groups.

      • Aeon says:

        But admittedly, the ACLU has done the yeoman’s work on this, with a few other human rights groups.

        Yep, those 100,000 pages of govt docs related to the torture issue that the ACLU has obtained to date weren’t released out of the goodness of the government’s heart.

    • LabDancer says:

      Speaking of Zelikow, he seems of the view that DNI Blair thinks Panetta is useless:

      http://shadow.foreignpolicy.co…..ht_edition

      Note Zelikow purports to rely in large part on the usual foreign-intel-policy-establishment cut-out, WaPo’s Ignoramus … er, Ignatius [who certainly has had the time, though I doubt he’s used any of it, to catch up on his reading on the countries bordering the Khyber Pass]; but since we all know Igno is a cut-out, then as one in the know, Zelikow would know he’s pretty much also a public utility.

      Plus Tom Ricks is reporting a rumor that would fit as a step in the effort to start resolving all these intel community embarrasments: Gates leaving DOD for the WH to head the NSC:

      http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com…..ce_jones_0

      This so reeks of irony and has such an irresistible bureaucratic symmetry, it approaches poetry: Gates starts his Beltway career in the Carter White House NSC, nurse-maids Bill Casey at the CIA under Reagan, runs the CIA under Bush the Elder helping him bury the Iran-Contra mess, and now gets to help Obama try to bury the mess left by Bush the Younger and Cheney. Plus it even has the superficial appearance of being Lincoln-esque! Can’t wait for the opening bids at Intrade.

      This all makes it kind of hard to criticize Russia for Putin.

      • LabDancer says:

        ‘Course, this would leave an opening at DoD; and the obvious candidate to fill it? Powell.

        And Armitage’s mouth rides again!

  4. WilliamOckham says:

    While at the ACLU’s site, I noticed they asking the DoD about this question from one of the DoD’s personnel department’s “antiterrorism” refresher course:

    Which of the following is an example of low-level terrorism activity?
    o Attacking the Pentagon
    o IEDs
    o Hate crimes against racial groups
    o Protests

    According to the DoD, the right answer is ‘Protests’. Think about how many terrorists we have. That would include most everybody in a union, pro-life and pro-choice folks, the teabaggers, the anti-globablization folks, the civil rights movement, but most hilariously, my mom.

    I think it’s time to get the ACLU to print up bumper stickers that say:

    “This is an LLTA”

  5. Mary says:

    The history of both GITMO and the black sites was based on a conscious decision to use offshore locations (but ones where our coalition allies did not have access) to escape the application of any law. It was never a “military law v. civilian law” issue and that’s why Obama can’t get a handle on why his “I’ll just shut it down” response isn’t buying him coffee. The problem wasn’t that people were detained it is that the whole structure was set up to deliberately avoid US courts having jurisdiction and as a result, being able to have NO LAW apply (none of them began to worry about the domestic law of our offshore torture partners).

    That’s why Philbin, who didn’t catch on fast enough, made his big mistakes in his military commissions memo, saying that of course they could do that bc of course the Geneva Conventions applied and they would allow for it if done correctly.

    In any event, given that the whole construct of locating offshore torture sites was to allow the Exec branch of the US Gov to “handle” “detainees” without a US court interfering, they were relying on not having Article 16 apply, but more correctly (bc we did not adopt CAT as self executing) you would say that they were relying on the US Exec branch being able to act free from the strictures of 18 USC 2340 (the CAT enabling stat) and the US Constitutution, including in particular the 5th and 8th amendments.

    Moving the torture offshore was actually the issue that Yoo and Addington felt strongest on, with the Eisentrager memo. And its interesting to watch the timelines of the Rasul case, which ended up cratering not only their concept of “ollie ollie offshore free” but also raising the Alien Tort aspects that I don’t think they ever bothered to flesh out in memos, since that would start from the point of, “The CIA has explained that it has been disappearing and torturing innocent people, some of whom have now filed suit …”

    So, the argument that CAT (via it’s enabling aspects, 18 USC 2340 and the Constitution’s and specifically the 5th and 8th amendments) doesn’t apply is one that they have made from the start and it continues to show up in the Bradbury May 30 memo, even after the Rasul case, as a reason not to worry. By 2005, though, the CIA was wanting the next round of “but if 1 part of Gov, our courts, actually does assert its constitutionally required check on another part of Gov, our Exec, by finding that the Judiciary branch of our Gov does have jurisdiction over the Executive branch of our gov (even when the Executive is torturing offshore, then what?”

    • dmvdc says:

      You would agree, wouldn’t you, that if the torture techniques were not in fact torture, but “just” cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, that there would be no domestic liability for CIA (officers or contractors or whomever) solely under the CAT? That’s what makes the memos purporting to determine that the techniques are not torture so vital. The CIDT portion of CAT was never implemented in our domestic law.

      (Incidentally, this whole episode demonstrates why the non-self-execution doctrine is so FUBAR.)

      • Nell says:

        I’d be very grateful for a pointer to any explanation or discussion of reservations placed on the ratification of treaties, and particularly of the “non-self-executing” tactic.

        I’ve read snippets of Alfred McCoy’s discussion of the U.S. reservations to the Convention Against Torture in A Question of Torture (on GoogleBooks, which is why it was snippets).

        But there must be a lot more out there, and I’d appreciate the guidance of those of you who have read and thought more about this subject than I have.

        • dmvdc says:

          Ok, here are some basics.

          First, and importantly, the issue of reservations is conceptually distinct from the self-executing issue. Let me explain the latter first.

          Legal systems are commonly classified as either “monistic” or “dualistic.” Under a monistic system, international law and domestic law are both part of the same legal order. Thus, if a country with a monistic legal system ratifies a treaty, the rules of law contained in that treaty become rules of law in that country in the same way that rules derived from duly-enacted legislation would. (Note that this is very much a simplification of reality. I’m leaving out some important points, but they’re not necessary for generally grasping the difference between monism and dualism.) Under a dualistic system, international law and domestic law form two distinct legal systems. If a country with a dualistic legal system ratifies a treaty, the rules of law contained in that treaty will bind the country on the international level, but the rules won’t have any effect in the national legal system. In order for the rules to have effect in the national legal system, the legislature (or whomever, depending on the national constitution) will have to pass legislation that implements the treaty. (Note again that this is a simplification, but it’s useful enough as a rough model. In reality, most countries have some form of a dualistic system, though it’s not as clean and neat as this division makes it appear to be.)

          Article VI of the Constitution provides in part that “all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land.” That sounds like we have a monistic system, right? Alas, we do not.

          Federal courts in the United States have long recognized that some treaty provisions are “self-executing” and some are not. U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall discussed the distinction in an 1828 case, Foster v. Neilson: “Our constitution declares a treaty to be the law of the land. It is, consequently, to be regarded in courts of justice as equivalent to an act of the legislature, wherever it operates of itself, without the aid of any legislative provision. But when the terms of the stipulation import a contract, when either of the parties engages to perform a particular act, the treaty addresses itself to the political, not the judicial department; and the legislature must execute the contract, before it can become a rule for the court.” (27 U.S. (2 Pet.) 253, 314).

          A single treaty can contain both self-executing and non-self-executing provisions. If a treaty provision is self-executing, no congressional legislation implementing that provision is necessary. If a treaty provision is not self-executing, Congress will have to implement the provision through legislation in order for the provision to be binding in domestic law. The distinction is important because where a treaty provision is self-executing, judges will have the power to apply the provision in relevant cases (again, simplifying). Judges do not have power to apply a non-self-executing treaty provision, where the provision has not been implemented.

          The result is that where a treaty provision has been implemented (through legislation), the judge will apply the rules found in the legislation, not the treaty itself. Therefore, if there are any differences between the treaty and the implementing legislation, the version found in the implementing legislation will win (at least in domestic courts).

          So how do we tell if a treaty provision is self-executing or not? The general rule is that we look to the intent of the parties to the treaty. Did the parties intend for the provision to be self-executing or not?

          Now we come to the issue of reservations. Article 2(1)(d) of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT) defines a “reservation” as “a unilateral statement, however phrased or named, made by a State, when signing, ratifying, accepting, approving or acceding to a treaty, whereby it purports to exclude or to modify the legal effect of certain provisions of the treaty in their application to that State.” Article 19 of the VCLT allows states to make reservations, unless the reservation is specifically prohibited by the treaty itself, the treaty only allows for specific reservations and the reservation in question is not one of those specified, or the reservation is “incompatible with the object and purpose of the treaty.”

          There are also things called “understandings” and “declarations.” The precise differences between reservations, understandings, and declarations is a debated issue, and we need not go into it here.

          Now, as we know, Art. II, section 2 of the U.S. Constitution gives the President “power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur.” If the Senate only grants its consent on certain conditions, the President must act accordingly. In other words, the President can’t just ignore the conditions on which the Senate gave its consent. If he did, we wouldn’t be able to say that the Senate consented, and therefore we wouldn’t be able to say that the treaty was made “under the authority of the United States” as prescribed in Art. VI of the Constitution.

          The Senate will sometimes give its advice and consent only “subject to” certain reservations, understandings, and declarations. Take the Convention Against Torture. The Senate gave its advice and consent subject to 2 reservations, 5 understandings, and 2 declarations. The first declaration was that Articles 1 through 16 of the CAT “are not self-executing.” Thus, part of our intent in ratifying the Convention was that the specified articles were not to be self-executing. (See Restatement (Third) of Foreign Relations Law § 111(4)(b) (1987) (international agreement non-self-executing where Senate gives consent on condition that implementing legislation required)).

          There are lots of issues, and a lot of debate, about much of what I’ve said above; also, the issues are more complex than what I’ve said above, but I think I’ve adequately given you the basic ideas. I should mention, in closing, that states are under an international obligation to adjust their domestic law to be consistent with and give effect to a treaty. Sometimes that won’t require any changes (where domestic law adequately gives effect to the treaty already). Where domestic law does require changes, and the state does not change its domestic law, the state is breaching its obligation. Of course, there’s usually no way to enforce that obligation, or to hold a state accountable for such a breach, beyond publicly calling them out on it.

          I hope that helps. I can point you to some articles and whatnot, but I’m not sure of what kind of access you have to law reviews, etc. Let me know if you want those references, anyway.

        • Nell says:

          Thanks dmvdc. I actually understood things that far, but your spelling it out is helpful to me as well as (I’m pretty sure) to other readers.

          Unfortunately, I don’t have time right now to document adequately the question I have, and these threads age so fast that I’m reluctant to assume this one will still be alive tomorrow morning.

          In essence, my question is: At least two pieces of implementing legislation have been passed since the CAT was ratified in November 1994. Does any of it “activate” Article 16?

          From the language the torture lawyers were using, it certainly sounds as if it’s their view that none of the implementing legislation affects Article 16, hence their reference to “intending to respect Article 16 despite it not being legally required”.

          Another question is: What kind of company is the U.S. in in putting these kinds of major reservations and limitations on our adoption of treaties (not the “self-executing” stuff but the reservations)? Do EU members do it? How about Russia? China? Because if the reservations are stringent enough, there hardly seems to be any point to signing and ratifying at all. (Except, of course, for domestic preening purposes about “rule of law”.)

        • acquarius74 says:

          Thank you, Nell. One might list those countries that “do not consider themselves bound” to also fall into the list of countries to which the US renditioned detainees…You’re right, it is not a pretty picture. A large portion of DC-painted pictures portray human suffering, blood, broken bones and minds and death.

      • Petrocelli says:

        That’s funny and scary … the only one that is enshrined in your Constitution is seen as a terrorist act by the DoD.

  6. MadDog says:

    EW, an important point not to be missed is the footnote on item 3 in the ACLU’s suit:

    1 The 2008 Request defined the term “White House” to include the Executive Office ofthe President, the Office of the President, the White House Office, the Office of Counsel to the President, the National Security Council, the Office of the Vice President, the Cabinet, as well as any governmental agency, council, or office that advises the President or the Vice President as to the legality of, or the authority to undertake, any executive action.

    (My Bold)

    I note that with the OVP, that means the contents of your man-sized safe PapaDick, and of your TEMPEST-approved computer David Addington!

    And as to the NSC, we want to see your torture authorization Condi!

    And just who were those “NSC Officials” that authorized a Torture Special Access Program in spite of a Executive Order that made such authorization the legal province of the CIA Director.

    • MadDog says:

      And if there are folks here with any ACLU contacts, perhaps you could ask them to supplement their latest suit with an insistence on getting all torture communications to and from contractors.

      Since a large percentage of our intelligence/defense community consists of an outsourced workforce, leaving contractors out of the lawsuit will necessarily only provide us part of the total picture.

        • MadDog says:

          Yabba-Dabba-Doo!

          Most excellent – we all wait with bated breath!

          And if you had influence on getting BlueGirl’s AMA post up on FDL’s front page, ta for that too!

  7. Slothrop says:

    OT: biggest story They don’t want you to know about right now as it might affect the Fed’s T-bond buying program:

    http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/…..stion.html

    Yup, $134 billion worth — the most money outside of the NY Fed ever found. How did it get there? It seems to be the real thing. Whoa.

  8. 1boringoldman says:

    …Letter for Alberto R. Gonzales, Counsel to the President, from John C. Yoo, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, at 1 (July 22,2002).

    These guys really knew what they were doing from early in the game [July 2002]. Yesterday, Rayne was making the point that using classification of documents as a political tool to evade oversight sounded like it ought to be a crime. Other loopholes – sending people overseas or juryrigging OLC opinions – clearly used to evade laws sort of seems like a crime too. Is criminal intent an applicable principle when it comes to very important people like Vice Presidents and the like?

  9. MadDog says:

    OT, but of interest here – via the AP (caveat emptor!):

    Appeals court blocks release of detainee pictures

    The U.S. government can keep pictures of detainee abuse secret while it asks the Supreme Court to permanently block release of the photographs on the grounds they could incite violence in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, a federal appeals court said Thursday.

    The one-paragraph ruling by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan came after the Obama administration asked the court to keep the pictures secret so it could appeal to the nation’s highest court…

    …The appeals court stayed its order supporting a lower court judge’s decision to order release of the photographs until the Supreme Court had a chance to consider the case…

  10. orionATL says:

    speaking of torture –

    the cia bureaucracy is experiencing a bit of “torture” these days,

    death by a thousand foia’s, leaks, gov’t reports, and foreign press reports.

    as comey warned years ago, it will eventually all come out.

    and we will learn that once again, and for the umpteenth time since the 1950’s, our cia has screwed up and then been forced to cover up – screw up then cover up, screw up then cover up …..

    do these guys ever do anything right?

    oh, right, that info’s classified.

  11. fatster says:

     U.S. frees Guantanamo detainee seized when a teenager

    Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:55pm EDT
    By Luke Baker

    LONDON (Reuters) – “An African detainee held at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay since he was a teenager has been released without charge after more than seven years in captivity, his lawyers said on Thursday.

    “Mohammed El Gharani, a Chadian citizen, was freed five months after a U.S. federal judge ordered him released having reviewed the evidence against him and ruled that there was nothing to suggest he was ever an “enemy combatant.”

    “Lawyers for Gharani said he was the youngest detainee to be released from Guantanamo, having been seized in 2001 when he was 14.

    “But the Pentagon disputes his age . . . “

    http://www.reuters.com/article…..1920090611

  12. fatster says:

    OPINION
    Guantanamo haunts released detainees
    Released without support or resources, these often shunned, destitute and depressed men make easy recruits for radicals.

    By Laurel Fletcher and Eric Stover
    June 11, 2009

    “Last year, we interviewed 62 released Guantanamo detainees from nine countries in Europe, the Middle East and Southern Asia. We found that although many harbored negative feelings toward the U.S. government, most simply wanted to reintegrate into their families and communities. But they found it difficult to do so.

    ‘Nearly all suffered from what we call the “Guantanamo stigma,” a presumption in their communities that they were dangerous men, even though the U.S. had never convicted them of a crime. Only six of the 62 had been able to find permanent jobs. Many had lost property, and their families had been driven into debt during their absence.”

    http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..8694.story

  13. rosalind says:

    damn – just caught the tail end of Sen. Whitehouse on Rachel Maddow’s show. As she ended the interview he interjected one last thought: how did the Contractors have the ability to interrupt the most productive interrogations conducted so far in the “global war on terror” not once but twice?

    will definitely need to see the whole interview.

  14. foothillsmike says:

    Jeebus just saw Whitehouse on Rachel. This guy is playing a mean game of chess and he is 4 moves ahead.

    • newtonusr says:

      No kidding. If he can remain independent, we may have a ballgame.
      He looks anxious to proceed.

      • foothillsmike says:

        Visiting with my Senator about a month ago, he told me to hold on. That I have not seen anything yet. That as it comes out the horrendous details will emerge. I think Whitehouse is one of the point people on this and he isn’t a lone wolf.

        • bmaz says:

          I am pretty sure that is correct

          And we’re gonna have to make a bigger doghouse for the Mad one. Tee hee hee! Good one @40 MD!

        • newtonusr says:

          Whitehouse has been very translucent. Knowing damned well what happened, and having to keep it dark, I think it is driving him crazy.
          Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    • 1boringoldman says:

      Whitehouse is more than just 4 moves ahead. He knocked it out of the park. “not constrained by executive privilege,” the shot heard round the world…

      • Leen says:

        Whitehouse gives us all hope that they may really mean that “no one is above the law”

        Had to listen three times for the rush…goose bumps hearing that Rachel Maddow “will it look at the chain of command”
        Whitehouse ” investigations are step by step” “against an executive investigation executive privilege does not apply” “I guess stand by”

        Whitehouse threw this in (what a huge gift to Rachel, us and Justice) “One other important question is…what were the private contractors doing.”

        Thank you Senator Whitehouse.

        • Petrocelli says:

          Whitehouse is eventually going to be head of the SJC, if he wants it. Should his investigation lead where he seems to be so methodically taking it, and this becomes another Watergate, he might just be the next Veep nominee in 2012.

    • Petrocelli says:

      Thanks Marcy ! Senator Whitehouse is cagey for what he says and how much he’s revealed up to now ought to scare BushCo and their supporters.

  15. fatster says:

     
    Two Guantanamo detainees sent to Iraq, Chad

    “Two Guantanamo detainees, a young man with dual Chadian and Saudi nationalities and an Iraqi, were transferred to Chad and to Iraq respectively, the US Justice Department said Thursday.

    “Jawad Jabber Sadhkan arrived in Iraq overnight Wednesday to Thursday, while Mohammed al-Gharani arrived in Chad on Thursday, the department said in a statement.

    “These were the seventh and eighth releases from the controversial US Navy-run detention camp in southeastern Cuba since President Barack Obama entered the White House in January.”

    http://rawstory.com/news/afp/T…..12009.html

  16. fatster says:

    Congressional negotiators reach a war-funding deal

    By ANDREW TAYLOR – 7 hours ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — “President Barack Obama would be allowed for the next four months to order Guantanamo Bay detainees into the United States to face trial under a compromise reached Thursday by House and Senate negotiators struggling with a war-funding bill.

    “Transferring detainees from the U.S. detention center in Cuba would be allowed only through Sept. 30, according to top House aides, leaving until later the question of whether Guantanamo detainees tried in military trials in the United States would serve prison time in other nations if convicted or would face imprisonment in the U.S.

    “The short-term solution to the debate over whether detainees should be brought to the U.S. buys the administration time as it struggles to come up with a permanent solution that would allow Obama to fulfill his promise to close the Guantanamo Bay detention facility by Jan. 22.”

    ttp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/

    • acquarius74 says:

      Thank you, stryder, for the link to the Rachel interview with Sen. Whitehouse. I’m saving it to watch whenever I get so deeply disgusted with the DC smoke and mirrors show. Even knowing all that he knows as a member of the Senate intelligence committee, Sen. Whitehouse can discipline himself to take it “step-by-step” all the way. He and Marcy must share some common gene that my ancestors lacked. [mine were Scotch-Irish, intelligent but impetuous; too quick to leap into the fray without being fully prepared).

      I think Sen. Whitehouse recognizes that Marcy and the Pups are working to help build his case. Highest praise to all!

  17. cinnamonape says:

    The U.S. government can keep pictures of detainee abuse secret while it asks the Supreme Court to permanently block release of the photographs on the grounds they could incite violence in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, a federal appeals court said Thursday.

    Which, if the Supremes rule positively would mean that any images (or other information) of criminal activity of such a heinous nature as to initiate “possible violent protest” could be held in secret in perpetuity. Note that there is no US military presence in Pakistan…so they are requesting that such information is held even where there is no direct risk to our military. Apparently we now are even defending regimes that might fall if such information is released?

    The more outrageous the acts the greater the protection…since it would be even more likely to result in violent response. So if you are going to commit criminal acts against someone make sure its done in the most despicable and offensive manner possible…since the government will then have to protect you and even close off any prosecution (since word of what you did might “leak out”).

    The government is asking for a “Get Out of Jail Free” card for the worst monsters we have created. There will be no Justice for the victims and an encouragement to produce even more brutal and morally indefensible acts.

    • skdadl says:

      Note that there is no US military presence in Pakistan…so they are requesting that such information is held even where there is no direct risk to our military. Apparently we now are even defending regimes that might fall if such information is released?

      I wonder whether there actually are some photos from Pakistan, either of “techniques” being exercised by proxies or of U.S. agents engaged in interrogations, both of which have happened and, I dunno, probably continue.

      The first real worry the government has is that more of the truth of what was done in Pakistan (or Morocco, Syria, Libya, etc) will come out and citizens in the West, including Americans, will be scandalized all over again. And then our governments, whatever they say in public, have their reasons for trying to cover up for regimes that have done some of the dirty work — that’s what hides under the “national security” and “harm to international relations” excuses.

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