“Legal”

When I first started bitching about this NYT story, I did so because it appeared someone had come to the NYT with three pieces of data–the news that Jim Comey concurred with the May 10, 2005 OLC "Techniques" memo, the previously known fact that Daniel Levin had authorized waterboarding under certain circumstances in August 2004, and the self-evident fact that Jack Goldsmith had not withdrawn the Bybee Two memo in 2004 when he had withdrawn the Bybee One memo (though not for lack of concern about the memo)–and turned it into an A1 story trumpeting that "US Lawyers Agreed on the Legality of Brutal Tactic."

The only real news from those three pieces of data is that Jim Comey, in an email to his Chief of Staff, described having said this to then Attorney General Alberto Gonzales:

I told him the first opinion was ready to go out and I concurred. 

Assuming the statement means what it appears to–that Comey endorsed the findings of the "Techniques" memo–it is news. It means that Comey concurred with the following propositions:

With these considerations in mind, we turn to the particular question before us: whether certain specified interrogation techniques may be used by the Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA") on a high value al Qaeda detainee consistent with the federal statutory prohibition on torture, 18 USC 2340-2340A. For the reasons discussed below, and based on the representations we have received from you (or officials from your Agency), about the particular techniques in question, the circumstances in which they are authorized for use, and the physical and psychological assessments made of the detainee to be interrogated, we conclude that the separate authorized use of each of the specific techniques at issue, subject to the limitations and safeguards described therein, would not violate sections 2340-2340A. Our conclusion is straightforward with respect to all but two of the techniques discussed herein. As discussed below, use of sleep deprivation as an enhanced technique and use of the waterboard involve more substantial questions, with the waterboard presenting the most substantial question.

[snip]

Assuming adherence to the strict limitations discussed herein, including the careful medical monitoring and available intervention by the team as necessary, we conclude that although the question is substantial and difficult, the authorized use of the waterboard by adequately trained interrogators and other team members could not reasonably be considered specifically intended to cause severe physical or mental pain or suffering and thus would not violate sections 2340-2340A.

However carefully parsed, Comey’s concurrence means he bought off on the claims that subjecting someone to controlled drowning did not amount to purposely subjecting them to severe mental pain. That is news–and pretty appalling news, at that.

But what really pissed me off was that the NYT packaged that news with data that was not news at all so as to be able to claim that three lawyers who challenged the Bush Administration’s torture program nevertheless found the most controversial tactic in the program legal (and mind you, the NYT has not completely proved its case with either Goldsmith or Levin). Someone–and I’m assuming it’s the NYT source because otherwise the inclusion of two non-news pieces here would be even more ridiculous–decided the Comey news presented an opportunity to try to change the narrative about torture with a big Sunday A1 story. The NYT got played, badly. It wasn’t so much in the factual presentation, I thought at first, as in the spin, that NYT failed.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize the NYT has a serious factual problem with their main piece of news, that Comey and others agreed "the methods themselves were legal."

As I noted above, if Comey’s comment about concurring with the "Techniques" memo means what it appears to, it means he bought off on the proposition that waterboarding and sleep deprivation, used by themselves, did not violate 18 USC 2340-2340A. That does not mean he considered these techniques legal. As the "Techniques" memo itself notes, 

In the present memorandum, you have asked us to address only the requirements of 18 USC 2340-2340A. Nothing in this memorandum or in our prior advice to the CIA should be read to suggest that the use of these techniques would conform to the requirements of the Uniform Code of Military Justice that governs members of the Armed Forces or to United States obligations under the Geneva Conventions in circumstances where those Conventions would apply. We do not address the possible application of article 16 of the CAT, nor do we address any question relating to conditions of confinement or detention, as distinct from the interrogation of detainees. 

That is, even within the memo in question, OLC was clear that the advice did not extend to the Geneva Conventions or the Convention Against Torture. The question at hand was, did waterboarding and sleep deprivation comply with a law–2340-2340A, not whether it complied with all laws.

Which is why the last email included with the NYT story is so critical. The email is dated May 31, 2005, just one day after the May 30, 2005 memo on whether or not these techniques violate CAT–a memo that basically argues our torture is distinct from the torture our State Department condemns because it is useful, and therefore it cannot be said to shock the conscience. The memo also dismisses any concern with the Eighth Amendment because the detainees in CIA custody were not being punished for anything.

In the email, Comey describes trying to prepare Alberto Gonzales to argue against the use of torture at a White House Principals meeting. He writes,

Pat [Philbin] and I urged the AG in the strongest possible terms to drive a full policy discussion of all techniques. I said I was not going to rehash my concerns about the legal opinion, but that it was simply not acceptable for Principles [sic] to say that everything that may be "legal" is also appropriate.

Now, we have no way of knowing just from the context of the email. But the timing of this email–over a month after Comey’s complaints about the May 10 "Combined" memo, but just one day after the release of the "CAT" memo–suggests his reference to concerns about a legal opinion may refer to the CAT memo, not the "Combined" memo.  That is, it is possible that Comey continued to object to the "Combined" memo but also objected to the "CAT" memo. And in any case, his use of scare quotes with the term "legal" suggests he’s not all that convinced that the program under discussion had been determined to be "legal."

Again, from the evidence at hand, we don’t know whether or not Comey objected to that second memo that claimed waterboarding did not violate CAT, but if he did, then he would have believed the program violated our treaty obligations.

So when the NYT claims that Comey and others agreed the tactics were legal, they far overstate the evidence they present. To be fair, they describe the analysis as pertaining specifically to 2340-2340A in the sixteenth paragraph of the article.

The lawyers had to interpret a 1994 antitorture law written largely with despotic foreign regimes in mind, but used starting in 2002, in effect, as a set of guidelines for American interrogators. The law defined torture as treatment “specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” By that standard, a succession of Justice Department lawyers concluded that the C.I.A.’s methods did not constitute torture.

So that last sentence–that by the standard of 2340-2340A, the CIA’s methods, by themselves, did not constitute torture–is factually correct (assuming Comey’s concurrence means what it appears to). But the "Combined" memo itself is an assessment of whether the program complies with 2340-2340A, and Comey clearly did not agree that the memo, as written, made its case. And there is the possibility that Comey also doubted whether the program was legal under CAT. It is one thing to say that Comey agreed that waterboarding, by itself, did not violate 2340-2340A. But that is not the same as stating–as the NYT does elsewhere–that these lawyers had determined the tactics to be legal.

Their headline and lede (referring to "tactics" and not the program overall) might be factually correct–or it might be the unfortunate result of accepting their source’s spin that the only laws in question were US laws prohibiting the deliberate infliction of severe physical or mental pain. The point is, we don’t know. And it appears the NYT doesn’t know, either.

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155 replies
  1. WilliamOckham says:

    Read the first footnote to the “combination” memo. Even Comey’s concurrence to “techniques” isn’t news.

  2. emptywheel says:

    WO

    I’m not convinced. It says that Crim concurred with the memo Daniel Levin wrote to Comey in December, not that Comey concucurred with what Levin wrote at the time.

  3. plunger says:

    Well done. Clearly, any claims by administration officials that these techniques were deemed to be “legal” is an intentional overreach. A noble lie.

    Their argument is purely propaganda, designed not to fool the critical thinker, but to give moral cowards (FOX News and Followers) the excuse not to think at all:

    “Most people prefer to believe that their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which he lives is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one’s self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all.”

    Michael Rivero

    • emptywheel says:

      Don’t get me wrong, plunger, it is quite possible that Comey was perfectly happy with the May 30 memo, in which case the NYT would be on more solid ground.

      All I’m saying here is that they are taking 2340-2340A to be the full extent of the law governing torture, which it is not.

      • TheraP says:

        It’s the absence of context, the absence of analysis, based on any context, that seems to be the problem here. Providing bare bones conclusions based upon leaked data and hearsay by the leaker. Imagine we were back in Shakespeare’s time and we got parts of a play only. And we printed some “conclusions” based on bits of a play, and reviewed the play on that basis! Without even carefully analyzing the lines themselves. Or attending the play. Or checking with the actors!

        I’m beyond irritated. I’m totally thinking I’m in the wrong country!

        I got more sense from this humor piece in the Times today than anything else. (We’re in the process of trying to decide whether to give up our print edition. But the Times itself seems to be weighing against it!)

      • plunger says:

        Understood. Propaganda, as portrayed in 3″ letters on the cover of the New York Times proclaiming:

        “US Lawyers Agreed on the Legality of Brutal Tactic.”

        …is by design, intended to convey to the world at large that these techniques were LEGAL in the broader context of the word encompassed by THE Geneva Conventions.

        The public at large understands that the broader context of this debate has everything to do with International Conventions Against Torture, and not just the US statutes or the US Army Field Manual. The public’s assumption therefore is that the headline MEANS something that it does not.

        The US Government, and the Media, are engaged in blatant attempts to disinform the public. Conveying the actual truth is not their goal.

        The term “legal” is being used as a catch-all, for the purpose of disinformation. Every discussion of laws against torture is understood by readers to be an INTERNATIONAL issue, a Human Rights Issue – not a domestic issue. The headline implies that these attorneys deemed these techniques to be legal under International Law. That is the lie.

  4. JimWhite says:

    And in any case, his use of scare quotes with the term “legal” suggests he’s not all that convinced that the program under discussion had been determined to be “legal.”

    I concur with Marcy. The use of scare quotes says it all: the “legal” pronouncement applies only to the narrow conditions in the footnotes and framing of the opinions, not to the actions generally.

  5. bmaz says:

    Just so that we are clear as to what Comey DID view as legal, 18 USC 2340A outlaws torture, and 18 USC 2340 defines “torture” as follows:

    As used in this chapter—

    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

    Now, I don’t know about the rest of you, but the only way I can morally, or legally, find what they were discussing to be “Legal” under the definition in 18 USC 2340 is via discrimination under subsection 3 that the acts were not being carried out within the proscribed jurisdiction. Short of that, what kind of animal thinks that what was being done, even under the facts most favorable to Bushco, in any way complies with 2340?

    And as EW says @4, that is disregarding all the other legal proscriptions.

    • emptywheel says:

      Absolutely agree with that, bmaz. How you can intentionally drown someone and not have it count as severe mental suffering, I don’t know.

      • JimWhite says:

        I’m pretty sure I remember one of the memos detailing exactly what bmaz suggests, that the location of waterboarding was what made it fall outside that statute. Unfortunately, I don’t remember which one. But I was pretty mad when I ran across that section.

        • emptywheel says:

          No, it was the CAT memo that did that.

          By its terms, Article 16 is limited to conduct within “territory under [US] jurisdiction.” We conclude that territory under United States jurisdiction includes, at most, areas over which the United States exercises at least de facto authority as government. Based on CIA assurances, we understand that the interrogations do not take place in any such areas.

          Keep in mind that it appears Abu Zubaydah was in Gitmo in the 2003-2004 range.

        • bmaz says:

          Heh, and no way to foresee said visceral reaction. This crap is just pitiful. And, I might note, coming from the one solitary guy out of the bunch people keep hailing as the hero. Pretty sad; and how very bad that makes the rest of the lot.

      • bmaz says:

        Not even close on that one. If you didn’t “specifically intend to inflict” you wouldn’t be resorting to “enhanced” techniques designed for that very purpose. You wouldn’t desire to be “poignant”.

        No kidding that it is pretty unconvincing.

        • Mary says:

          They’ve never done a real and correct intent analyis, even a specific intent.

          It you intend the act, you are deemed at law to intend all natural foreseeable consequences of the act. It’s not a matter of it being OK to intend the act if you “only” intended to get information and never “intended” to cause serious consequences. If that was the status of the law, you could never get a specific intent conviction bc everyone would come up with all kinds of “in my mind” arguments. The can and do still make those arguments, but the standard against which they are measured is would a reasonable person know or reasonably expect that the “illegal” aspect (causing severe mental and physical suffering” a natural and foreseeable consequence of the act. I don’t have a case or a cleaned up cite and the language may end up varying some, but what it boils down to is that if a normal person would have figured out that the criminal effect was something that was likely and foreseeable, then it doesn’t matter if you can “also” come up with “other” reasons and claim you were just so unreasonable and unique that you never considered the other reasonable and foreseeable effects.

        • Jeff Kaye says:

          Unfortunately, the Reaganite/Bush lawyers who drew up the U.S. Reservations to CAT and then implemented them in 2340 knew what they were doing. (And Clinton’s leaving these reservations intact for ratification in Congress was either negligence or collusion with the previous administration, and deserves further scrutiny by some historian.)

          A close reading of the documents will reveal that while the CAT defines torture as any act “intentionally inflicted”, 2340 defines it as an act “specifically intended” (emphasis added).

          The point of this was to draw the issue of intent under U.S. law, which divided general from specific intent. The latter means the purpose of the act of torture must be to inflict the pain, etc., so if there’s another purpose and even if there is a general intent, or e.g., recklessness, it is not prosecutable under 2340.

          I’m no attorney, but we who opposed the CYA “good-feeling” anti-torture resolutions in the APA a few years ago came up against this language when the APA entered U.S. Reservations language at the last minute as part of the definition of torture in its “anti-torture” resolution. (It continues to do this, btw.)

          This is also why “cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment” is such a hot button topic, legally. From my standpoint, it’s still torture, but if there is to be such a category, criminality for CIDT under 2340 only calls for the “intentional” or “threatened” infliction of such treatment. From the torturer’s standpoint, it’s a far more scary prospect re prosecution, because the bar, seemingly, is set lower.

        • bmaz says:

          Jeff, I do not disagree with the way you describe the goal of the change in mental state language re: intent. That said, at worst, it would still be a jury (or other trier of fact) issue, and I think any decent prosecutor is not only going to convince a jury on the requisite intent here, but likely establish bad faith in the process.

        • Jeff Kaye says:

          Oh, I agree with you on this. But this simply brings us back to the issue of prosecutorial discretion… and cowardice (or political pressure not to prosecute, which may be the same thing). They certainly were going to put as many obstacles in front of implementing the CAT as they could. The U.S. reservations to CAT are unique in number and extent among the many signatory nations.

          See the full text of all the declarations, reservations, and objections made by signatories. Note the objections of both Finland and Sweden to aspects of the U.S. reservations.

        • bmaz says:

          Agreed. And thanks for linking that, I was looking for earlier to go with what I linked, but all I quickly found was the State Dept. white paper on it (which is pretty telling in its own right as to the US attitude).

    • Jkat says:

      precisely bmaz .. and the fact that no “agent of the united states” .. whether a civilian or a member of the military .. whether at peace .. or in war ..if attached to .. or working with any unit .. or within a military area of operations .. is excused from the standards of conduct outlined in the UCMJ ..

      it is impossible for any agent or state actor to claim legality for their actions ..when the behavior contemplated would get one charged with assault under the UCMJ ..

      which is why i have maintained from day one that the whole “debate” about torture is gar’bage ..

      there is no way to make it “legal” .. it’s assault at the very least .. and therefore ..proscribed ..

      sheesh .. it’s idiocy ..eh ??

      and my continued kudos and thanks to all of y’all .. including the legal eagles in comments .. for parsing all this for us non-lawyers out here in the cybersphere ..

      good job ..and “well done ” ..

    • billinturkey says:

      ‘Now, I don’t know about the rest of you, but the only way I can morally, or legally, find what they were discussing to be “Legal” under the definition in 18 USC 2340 is via discrimination under subsection 3 that the acts were not being carried out within the proscribed jurisdiction.’

      I’d initially assumed that was snark; especially given your expressed view of Comey; but on rereading the statute, I can’t see how even right-wing ideologue could not see waterboarding as constituting mental suffering under 2C: isn’t the whole point that the victim thinks they are drowning?
      (obvious disclaimer IANAL; IANEANA)

      So I’m wondering: what do we know, (and what was Comey told) about where the waterboarding was taking place?

      (Also, though its not my main concern here, might this be another instance of Comey tailoring his concurrence very narrowly?)

      • Mary says:

        You didn’t ask me, but I’m going to offer this up anyway bc I think it ties to a lot of the puzzlement going around about ‘but how could Comey think..’

        IMO he doesn’t “think” (in the actually believe) sense that the 13 techniques were “legal” even under the “we’re only talking about Sec 2340 carve out.”

        What I think you had is a siuation where the CIA had, by 2004/2005, already done a lot of things that were war crimes and torture. But they did them, not as panicked Jack Bauers in a ticking time bomb setting – but rather with all the WH, OVP, DOJ, NSC Principals, etc. directly involved and waving the pom poms cheering them (and independent contractors) on.

        JMO, but Comey is like Obama – he knows they are criminals under any analysis, but he thinks the USDOJ is so complicit in what they did, that he doesn’t want them held to account. He also doesn’t want his whole network of friends and power contacts subjected to problems and possible conspiracy issues, he also doesn’t want his perceived “good guys” like anti-abortion Ashcroft to be tarred with torture. If you are primarily a political creature, the response is to minimize future problems while making sure that your pals or contacts all get cover. You do that via arguing for the opinions to be narrowly fact specific tailored for reliance (so that future exact overlays on the opinions aren’t likely) so you still give cover for things you know are wrong and were authorized before you hit the scene, but you do it in a way that won’t put you on the line for future actions.

        I dont think you are seeing anything from him that involves legal philosphy or interpretation – it is a political approach of using the office and institution of DOJ to protect the people it helped get into difficulty while trying to minimize future damage – all done in a cocoon where only the political rather than legal consequences are really at issue. JMO

        • emptywheel says:

          I am very close to you here. I would put Comey’s position a little closer to what Mukasey’s was (with the caveat that Comey wasn’t doing it to get the AG spot, though some might argue he was doing it to get the Lockheed job) and Goldsmith’s was. That is, that the original memos were utterly wrong, but that they couldn’t put the CIA guys who had done this out to dry by declaring it illegal after the fact. So that what the first May 10 memo was intended to do was invent a new way to say these things were legal. The second May 10 memo–had Comey had his way–would have made any use of this going forward illegal (since they had always been doing it in combination, and it didn’t really make sense except in combination, and even SERE envisioned them in combination). And the third one–if indeed Comey opposed it–was an attempt to reel it back still further, with an insistence on making the 8th applicable.

          I’m not sure I’d call it political so much as pragmatic (same with Obama, in fact). That is, while I’m sure he didn’t really believe that waterboarding was not torture, he saw it as a necessary concession to make, still believing he could work the other two memos in such a way as to make this illegal going forward.

          That said, that’s what makes him susceptible, now, for this treatment in the NYT.

        • rkilowatt says:

          EW–as you have no apparent patron for certainty of support, your bona fides are easier to establish than Comey’s.

          Comey has Ashworth and others who pulled him up, from above, to lift him out of ordinary life into high gov status. Easy to act with integrity and hold your position…when your patron allows.

        • Loo Hoo. says:

          I dont think you are seeing anything from him that involves legal philosphy or interpretation – it is a political approach of using the office and institution of DOJ to protect the people it helped get into difficulty while trying to minimize future damage – all done in a cocoon where only the political rather than legal consequences are really at issue. JMO

          But then why did he write/keep these CYA emails?

        • timbo says:

          Comey may have been the last person of the type left at the top of DOJ by this time. Sez a lot of how badly the institution had fallen under the Bush regime. I believe Comey to have decided to stay as long as he could to do what he could to blunt these goons open assault on the legal function of government. He stayed as long he could…many folks resigned or were “transferred” who weren’t going along. He played the game as long as he thought he was having a blunting effect. After a few weeks of Gonzalez running DOJ, anyone in DOJ leadership with half a conscience would have been running for the door in a hurry…and I’m guessing that those that did stay afterwards, still trying to blunt the worst that the Bush gang could do, had to bite their own tongues bloody until the hiring and firing scandals broke.

    • Mary says:

      Obviously that’s where I am too.

      One of the things I probably flared most over in the NYT article was Wittes beside the point quote

      Some outside experts agree that the language of the 1994 law is strikingly narrow. “There’s no doubt whatsoever that a great deal of coercive treatment that most people would call torture is not prohibited by the federal antitorture statute,” said Benjamin Wittes, a Brookings Institution scholar who has studied interrogation policy.

      One of the cases Bradbury drops a footnot on in his first May 10 memo (Hilao) involved a lot of what is at issue in the 13 techniques and their combination. Unlike what Wittes says, it is not the case that things that “most people would call torture” are ok under the statute. It would generally be for the finder of fact to determine what is or isn’t “severe” (with things like references to mind altering drugs and threats to family members and of life being carve outs that are violations even if a finder of fact wouldn’t otherwise find them to be ’severe’) For Wittes to be a “scholar” who has “studied” interrogation and not point out that the techniques authorized in the memos were also used in cases like Hilao where there was liablity under the act is pretty irritating.

    • rkilowatt says:

      “torture…acting under the color of law…”

      Consider “authorized” vs “legal” where the latter term is bypassed by a parsing work-around.
      .
      ” I cannot do that unless it is legal”

      ” Do it!. It is authorized be the President VP AGAG ExecutiveOrder White House.

      “Yes sir.”.

      The enlisted or contractor personnel is overwhelmed and the action literally not “done under color of law“, but done because “authorized“. Still not convinced? Just substitute “officially authorized“.

  6. zhiv says:

    What’s your general sense of the track record of these reporters? (category of “things ew knows everything about, that I don’t keep track of.”) I know Shane (kind of funny when you leave out the first name–is he just a hired gun, always up for taking off his shirt and axing a tree stump with Van Heflin) has been on the beat for a long time, but I don’t know any of the specifics. Is this type of duping new, par for the course, or especially pernicious in this case?

    • emptywheel says:

      I suspect the two reporters were reporting two different stories. Shane, reporting on Comey’s objections, and Johnston, floating the spin from the Cheney/CIA/Bradbury source. I say that bc Shane has been on the beat, and bc this is not the first time people–including Cheney–have treated Johnston as a cut-out.

  7. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    It’s the absence of context, the absence of analysis, based on any context, that seems to be the problem here. Providing bare bones conclusions based upon leaked data and hearsay by the leaker. Imagine we were back in Shakespeare’s time and we got parts of a play only. And we printed some “conclusions” based on bits of a play, and reviewed the play on that basis! Without even carefully analyzing the lines themselves. Or attending the play. Or checking with the actors!

    Yes, very well put.

    And EW, thanks so much for this post!

    Fact: Comey is the person who got Fitz appointed to investigate the Plame leak, at a time when the FBI knew someone was lying about it.

    Fact: Comey seemed to have tried to protect the integrity-history of DoJ.

    Fact: Comey did help Ashcroft understand that some program was NOT legal, despite whatever Ashcroft had been told by someone else (Addington, perhaps…?)

    Fact: Who did Peggy Ashcroft call in her moment of desperate need? James Comey.

    Fact: Who backed up Ashcroft – in ICU with pancreatitis**, for Chrissake! – in the middle of the night, because the FBI agents stationed outside the room couldn’t prevent Gonzo and Card from entering and pressuring a man in an ICU bed (!).

    Fact: Comey left the DoJ, and when he did he gave one classy, inspiring speech.

    Fact: Comey realized that Frances Frago Townsend did not know about a ‘counterterrorism program’ because he asked her whether she recognized a codename. Now, if you were in Comey’s spot, wouldn’t you be pretty damn alarmed if you stumbled onto the fact that the ‘counterterrorism czarina’ didn’t know about the existence of a ‘counterterrorism program’? Yet Comey figured that out; what he did with that information, we don’t know.

    Fact: In late May 2005, some of the OVP email archives are missing. Is there significance between those missing emails and this ’story’ in the NYT?

    I think someone’s trying to set Comey up.
    Why?

    ** Known as ‘not the kind of pain for wimps’; Ashcroft must have been in agony and he would not have been in ICU unless his vital signs were not yet fully stabilized.

    • emptywheel says:

      Fact: As Glenn says, Comey’s a conservative ideologue.

      It doesn’t pay to forget that, either. By all appearances Comey DID agree that drowning someone would not cause severe mental pain.

    • SparklestheIguana says:

      Fact: Who did Peggy Ashcroft call in her moment of desperate need? James Comey.

      Lol….I think you mean Janet. Peggy was the British actress.

  8. TomSullivan says:

    The WH approach to approving these techniques was clearly a “dancing on the head of a pin” analysis done under duress from the top. What is “legal,” as Comey wrote, is not necessarily appropriate. They were clearly attempting to warp the law to allow what they wanted to do. Even the U.S. reservations to the CAT are written to allow wiggle room, such as the “specifically intended” weasel words.

    • bmaz says:

      Have you seen the official document promulgated by the US in relation to their participation in the CAT? The exceptions, clarifications and reservations are of book length. And that was before things started getting parsed further by Bushco.

  9. prostratedragon says:

    Just wondering if that’s what the hangup was about, given that the question of the effect on the prisoner is pretty transparent.

  10. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    Intended in reply to EW @13:

    Ack… I don’t have time to read Glenzilla as often as I’d like 8(
    So if Comey’s an ideologue, I wouldn’t actually know. (sigh.)

    I read this with more focus on the institutional knife-fights, which Cheney is evidently still playing where he can. Just seems like something’s weird here. Who’s the leaker? And what’s their motive…?

    I think TheraP summed up my sense quite well.
    What the heck is going on here?

    And in terms of Obama’s agenda, just back from MidEast and with (apparently) Israel in an uproar and in denial that they have to change, and with others in that region wondering if change is possible, it’s not clear to me what the ramifications of this leak to the NYT means in terms of that larger, Bigger Foreign Policy Picture.

    To say nothing of potential criminal liability in the US, and whatever DiFi or Levin or Whitehouse are discovering in their investigations.

    What a puzzle inside a puzzle inside a Rubric’s cube…

    • emptywheel says:

      The who is pretty easy to guess–some combination of Cheney, Bradbury, and/or CIA. The leak probably is an attempt to pre-empt the horribles we’ll see in the OPR report, due out any day. Rather than, “Cheney abused the OLC process and the OLC lawyers let themselves be abused (in Bradbury’s case, to chase a promotion)”, the leakers want this to be (as Glenn points out), “all the conservative lawyers asked about torture agreed that torture is not torture.”

      There’s some truth to the latter claim, but it’s not the full story and certainly not the story that one ought to get from reading Comey’s emails.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Wow, whole lotta thinking going on around here today ;-))

        Jason and LooHoo, in view of this @25:

        the leakers want this to be (as Glenn points out), “all the conservative lawyers asked about torture agreed that torture is not torture.”

        There’s some truth to the latter claim, but it’s not the full story and certainly not the story that one ought to get from reading Comey’s emails.

        it seemed worth spending a little time, if only to try and figure out what the full story really is.

        The way that I read Comey, he was valiantly trying to leave the best trail of breadcrumbs that he could, in a time when the Lynndie England trial had occurred, they’d just figured out that Bolton was spying on… Powell (or someone) and reporting back to OVP. Really, really sinister.

        One can definitely see why Comey got out.
        But it looks to me as if he was trying to give Gonzo enough ‘atta boy’ and ‘details’ and background info so that Gonzo could stand his ground. But Gonzo folded.

        However, it’s also interesting — dipping into Gellman’s “Angler” index for “Ashcroft” — that it does appear that Ashcroft was more pissed off and willing to stand his ground than Gonzo ever could. Ashcroft apparently outhollered Addington on an early torture issue.

        Strangely, Ashcroft — with whom I strongly disagree — may well have been dumped because he stood up to Addington and Cheney. And by the time Comey was writing these memos, they’d [Cheney, Addington, Hadley, Bolton, Wolfowitz] cut a whole lot of people out of the process and ‘compartmentalized’ everyone they could.

        Looks like they played Condi and Gonzo like violins.
        FWIW, I think Comey was just leaving the best trail of memos and emails that he could manage to pull off.

        • TheraP says:

          You’ve flagged a sentence @25 that had one word of Glenn’s that bothered me when I first read it – so I’m gonna fix it:

          the leakers want this to be (as Glenn points out), “all the conservative lawyers asked “pressured” about torture agreed that torture is not torture.”

          Because it doesn’t really sound like most were “asked”. It truly sounds more like they were told to be good soldiers. But some protested. Before caving in.

          It seems to me this fits with EW’s contention a week or so ago that they briefed the few Congressional reps – and wrote up the logs – as if everybody agreed. And then they pressured others to agree. It really does sound like by double-teaming and triple-teaming people one at a time, if necessary, they goaded lawyers to march in a line, just like cows are marched to the slaughterhouse.

          Maybe that’s too strong a picture, but for the recalcitrant they used a lot of pressure. And for the rest, they chose selectively. It’s not as if they took a random sample of conservative lawyers and let them think it through, independent of pressure. No, they selected people whom they viewed as malleable. It seems that a few very strong, determined, and ruthless individuals strong-armed another bunch of people they knew could be cowed into submission. Nevertheless, some still resisted. Till they caved.

          That reporters in 2007 could write about torture in terms that showed they were horrified and then turn around today and write in ways that are muted just indicates that the strong-arming and double/triple-teaming continues. Except it’s moved from the highest levels of govt to the media.

          Especially with regard to the torture, I find it horrifying and outrageous and, like spitting tacks, I’m running out of words to describe just how willfully pathological all of this appears.

        • JasonLeopold says:

          I think that OPR report is going to have quite a bit of documentary evidence that people like Comey and others vehemently objected to torture.

          The spin by the Times reminds me of the spin by The Times and the WaPo if I am not mistaken when the characterized the contents of the OPR report by stating that the report doesn’t “recommend prosecution” of OLC lawyers, which is not the case. The report does not explicitly state. That was a way for the Yoo’s, Addington’s, etc., to make it appear that the probe found torture to be legal.

          I hope this makes sense. I am so fried today for some reason.

        • TheraP says:

          Your memory is exactly correct, Jason. That’s exactly just they spouted, rather than looking up what was possible and considering that leaving something out is not the same as a “pass”. And of course, once it’s spouted by one, then others simply swallow the pablum and spout the same propaganda.

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          That was a way for the Yoo’s, Addington’s, etc., to make it appear that the probe found torture to be legal.

          I’d actually forgotten that — maybe it could be added to a Timeline…?

          But per TheraP @117: remember that Monica Goodling was in charge of hiring at DoJ (!), and took her cues from Rove’s ‘aggregator’ Kyle Sampson. So there was plenty of murky mixing-together of DoJ-WH mindset. And Sampson and Goodling were easy to snow, so probably many others were as well.

          It appeared that Goodling and Sampson thought that ‘following instructions’ equated to ‘doing their job’; they were hired to carry out a very ideological perspective, and they seemed to take pride in that — and probably disregarded, or failed to grasp, the tougher, more sturdy, principles that Comey believed. (Whether you agree with Comey or not, he’s light-years more tough than Goodling or Sampson or Gonzo.)

          The problem for Yoo, Bybee, Bradford — well, one of many problems — is that Graner is still in jail, and a number of US service members served jail time for Abu Gharib. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have been reprimanded, but I would point out that Geof Miller, Boykin, Rumsfeld, Feith, ** Cambone **, Bush, Cheney, Addington, etc seem to think that they’ve put up legal firewalls.

          And media firewalls-of-confusion, like this NYT article.

          But is the military really going to sit back while Graner serves time, knowing that Yoo has tenure at Berkeley?
          Is the military really going to turn a blind eye to being blamed, when their own JAGs were pushing back?

          I suspect that things are still playing out.

  11. DeadLast says:

    It sounds like Comey could sue the NYT for slander. What could we learn from such a trial. Now Comey is tainted with the finer hairs of the bybee/Gonzales/Addington/Cheney brush, he amy need to claw back his reputation.

    • bmaz says:

      There is not the thinnest, slightest, chance in hell of that occurring. First off, his “reputation” isn’t worth shit to start with (see my @7 above and anything Mary has written about the “conservative ideologue”); and, secondly, a plaintiff suing on a reputation damage claim opens himself to the full boat of discovery inquisition. Comey cannot afford by any stretch of the imagination do that nor would he survive such an inquiry intact. the thought of Comey “suing the NYT” is the biggest joke I have heard all week.

      • Tross says:

        The NYT would also be able to hide behind a “matter of public concern” privilege. My bar review class is paying off.

        • bmaz says:

          Heh heh. Squeeze all you can out of that sucker, they cost enough. And, seriously, the best of luck come exam time.

        • Tross says:

          Thanks. Much appreciated.

          I’ve cut out almost all other news, but reading EW everyday actually enhances the studying.

    • Leen says:

      Maybe this will push him to throw some more “shit” into the fan.

      So how long will the Cheney torture team distract the public via the MSM with the Comey said torture was o.k. spin

  12. rosalind says:

    pulling Mary’s #124 from the previous thread:

    The funny thing about that memo is that a part of the basis for his conclusion that the President could establish military commissions is his parallel conclusion that the Geneva Conventions apply to even the US efforts to go after al-Qaeda. So he said commissions were ok by saying that the GCs applied and they allow for military commissions.

    Then when OLC and Gonzales decide that they aren’t going to apply the GCs – no one seems to then go back and question the issue of commissions, which were based on the application of the GCs.

    • emptywheel says:

      We actually don’t know whether anyone did or not. What we do know is that this was all carefully compartmented to keep people who objected on legal grounds out of the discussion.

    • Mary says:

      Just to be clear – that wasn’t in response to the May Bradbury memos, but to Jeff Kaye’s comment on the Philbin military commissions memo.

  13. Leen says:

    Were Scott Shane and David Johnston trained by Judy “I was fucking right” Miller?

    i thought the Times was trying to regain some of their supposed reputation?

  14. Jkat says:

    it’s truly sad to watch the demise of the great ol’ grey lady into a tabloid trollop.. no ??

    • BoxTurtle says:

      It’s the newspapers in general. I doubt my local paper employs even one full time reporter. They’re all part timers and it shows.

      Boxturtle (Plus the fact it’s now written at the 5th grade level)

    • Mauimom says:

      it’s truly sad to watch the demise of the great ol’ grey lady into a tabloid trollop.. no ??

      “Tabloid trollop” — now there’s a phrase I’m gonna work into conversations & writings as frequently as possible.

      Thank you!!

  15. Leen says:

    “the authorized use of the waterboard by adequately trained interrogators and other team members could not reasonably be considered specifically intended to cause severe physical or mental pain or suffering and thus would not violate sections 2340-2340A.”

    “could not reasonably be considered specifically intended to”

    what the hell do they mean here? Twisted

  16. Mary says:

    Somehow when I refreshed earlier this post wasn’t coming up, but in an effort to move on to more important stuff after my ramble below, after I came back in I went “away” to pull a couple of things together that I did think were important and when I came back – here is this post already up with one of them. *g*

    So here is what I was thinking on this (and on some another related items that I think is very important).

    The NYT opinion does pretend that all the May memos did was interpret the 1994 anti-torture provisions:

    The lawyers had to interpret a 1994 antitorture law written largely with despotic foreign regimes in mind,

    and does completly skip over what the May 30 memo does – which is to make several BILL OF RIGHTS interpretations as to the acceptability of the treatment meted out by the Bush torturers.

    EW mentions that they specifically say there is no 8th amendment issue, “dismisses any concern with the Eighth Amendment because the detainees in CIA custody were not being punished for anything” (without any discussion of Attainder which would be the applicable standard if you are punishing people who have not been found guilty of criminal acts pursuant to Constitutionally cognizable due process)

    The memo also says that there is no Fifth amendment bar to what was being done. I may have some typos here, but DOJ says in an OLC memo that a) they don’t think that CAT (conventions against torture and enacting law) is applicable with respect to actions by the CIA outside of the nation (a Rashul argument resurrected) but just in case they are wrong about that (as they were in Rashul) the CIA also wants to know – hey, if CAT was applicable, then what? And DOJ says, well, “then what” is that the Fifth amendment would set the standard – and what you are doing to people as members of the Executive branch is AOK under the Fifth.

    Notwithstanding these conclusions, you have also asked whether the interrogation techniques at issue would violate the substantive standards applicable to the United States under Article 16 if, contrary to our conclusion in Part II, those standards did extend to the CIA interrogation program. As detailed below in Part III, the relevant constraint here, assuming Article 16 did apply, would be the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition of executive conduct that “shocks the conscience.”

    So what the NYT ignores (and why I keep bringing in something like Burge) is that the memos interpret US Constitional law to say these actions are OK under the Constitution – as it applies to US citizens protections from their government. Kind of an important point.

    Interestingly, the DOJ goes on to say – hey, what shocks the conscience is all so fact specific even the Sup Ct says it can’t even begin to come up with a “rule” of application:

    The Supreme Court has emphasized that whether conduct “shocks the conscience” is a highly context-specific and fact-dependent question. The Court, however, has not set forth with precision a specific test for ascertaining whether conduct can be said to “shock the conscience” and has disclaimed the ability to do so.

    Someone who is “relying” on the DOJ opinion that says the area is one where the Sup Ct has no rule and is so fact specific that there are no safe harbors and the Sup Ct “disclaims” the ability to generate a rule – well, there is not basis for reliance on something like that and you just can’t have reasonable reliance on an opinion that says even the Sup Ct can’t generate a rule in this area.

    Moving on –

    Comey’s email also makes an interesting reference to something else that the NYT article doesn’t address and that the memos skip over and makes me think that much more that his verbal communications with Gonzales stressed criminal liability issues. If you look at the memos, they dicuss this false “transition to interrogation” scenario so that the interrogation memos and issues never really discuss issues like actual kidnap/purchase starts to the interrogation, or the anal assaults and drugging combined with the forced nudity or the intentional removal to “outlaw” (outside of law) locations. I could be wrong, but I think that these are what Comey means here:

    At the close of the meeting I gave him a card on which I had written a listing of all techniques, including some things which never get mentioned because they are “preliminary.”

    This is where Comey is emphasizing the combination of techniques issue and policy with AGAG. IMO, what this may be getting at is the things that are done prior to the “transition to interrogation” false carve out in the memos. It would be interesting to see if there was a determination to take those very problematic issues – kidnap follwed by stripping, anal assault and drugging all combined with being taken to a site of no law for non-habeas confinement are kinda important “precursors” to the interrogations and aren’t all that easy to dismiss as being non-severe.

    And NYT doesn’t turn radar on that at all – what are the “preliminary” techniques that were supposedly also ok’d by the Principals and aren’t in the May memos?

    One other matter – the offhand reference to Chertoff’s refusal to give immunity. EW has said that doesn’t necessarily meant Chertoff did the right thing in the overall context, but I think that is a pretty important issue too. When someone like Chertoff isn’t game for immunizing, that hardly jives with the theme that all top lawyers went along. As Crim Div head, he had a lot of prosecutorial discretion if guys were doing things that the President/VP authorized. He was also involved IIRC in discussions with FBI where he told FBI that he didn’t see any way to “clean team” torture testimony for later use.

    I’m not a fan of Skeletor (and he was one of the Heritage panel participants palming off the storyline that “24″ is “just like real life” crap as well as his Katrina failures) but it looks possible that he gave defensible advice and may have had more backbone about cleaning up for Cheney torture than others.

    It’s like LabD mentions below, though. You have to get these guys under oath and with follow up and waivers of privilege to ever find out what happened. I’d be good to go with immunity to Chertoff as a outlier to getting info on the edges of what was going on.

    • emptywheel says:

      That would also make sense given the debates over rendition going on at the time. I suspect that the lie that someone in the supposed told Harman in February 2005 was rendition related, though that’s just a guess.

  17. Leen says:

    way ot
    Have a favor to ask. Something the Dog said (over at Oxdown) and Kathleen (me)/ Athens Ohio are trying to get scholarships to the NetRoots gathering in Pittsburgh over at Democracy for America. The Dog is on page one and I just put up my request and it is on page 4 of applicants. Would any folks be willing to go over and click in votes?
    http://democracyforamerica.com…..holarships

    Thanks

  18. scribe says:

    EW, you note:

    In the email, Comey describes trying to prepare Alberto Gonzales to argue against the use of torture at a White House Principals meeting. He writes,

    Pat [Philbin] and I urged the AG in the strongest possible terms to drive a full policy discussion of all techniques. I said I was not going to rehash my concerns about the legal opinion, but that it was simply not acceptable for Principles [sic] to say that everything that may be “legal” is also appropriate.

    Let me get this straight.

    The guy who, a scant year before, had barred the door against Gonzo and Card from taking advantage of a prostrate Ashcroft*, is trying to get Gonzo to argue to a Principals meeting against the very techniques which, three years or so prior, Gonzo had been signing off upon “on direction of” the President.

    Set aside a minute the sheer comedy which would ensue in the Principals’ Meeting (where many of the players were the same, or at least well-acquainted with each other) if Gonzo were to make such a volte face. He’d have been arguing that what he did at the behest of /for the President was wrong. A guy who’d never admitted doing anything wrong would suddenly be saying that one of the signature achievements of the Bush/Cheney presidency – torture – was wrong, not right. And he’d be going against his boss’ word – Gonzo, loyal lapdog of that boss.

    Comey didn’t have a chance with that argument. The wonder of it is that Gonzo didn’t blow it by busting out laughing, which is probably as good a reason as any as to why this was an email exchange rather than face-to-face. Comey wanted to cover his butt, while Gonzo wanted to stifle his giggling.

    Which leads, then, to two less favorable conclusions. First, what does this say about Comey’s naivete? Second, what does this say about how Comey was compartmented out from what was, or had been, really going on? I do not know that it can fairly be concluded, from this piece of naivete, that Comey really knew what had been going on, nor that he knew even a small fraction of the entire torture program, outside what the guys pushing this wanted him to know.

    At a minimum, he was punked by his clients into rendering (or allowing release of) an opinion which was both based on false premises (adherence to a tightly regulated regime of acts, when we know now they were using buckets of water willy-nilly) and artificially limited to one angle of the law rather than comprehensively covering it.

    At worst, Comey knew (or, in a lawyer’s exercise of skill, had figured out) exactly what was going on an engaged in an elaborate kabuki to help cover his superiors’ criminality through the veneer of his own naivete.

    Discuss.

    * The moral, if not legal equivalent of how Bruce Springsteen was signed to his first contract (the one he later spent no little time, money and effort successfully breaking): on the hood of a car under a streetlight in a parking lot out back of a divey Jersey bar well after midnight. Without first reading it. When looked at through that (or a similar) lens, the sheer perfidy which manifests itself as Gonzo should be at least a bit more clear: he’s the guy bringing the paper and the pen.

    Anyone that facile at lying and concealing his emotions, I’m not playing poker with.

    • emptywheel says:

      My impression is that Gonzo is just very weak. And that when Comey thought he had convinced him he was shocked bc he thought he was in the sway of the White House. And so when he went to the WH, he was just as weak and quickly caved.

      • rincewind says:

        Wait a second… Comey is brilliant enough to come up with truly prescient memos about what would happen down the road, right down to getting damn close on the time frame that it would all start collapsing — yet he really thought for one single second either that he had convinced Abu G or that Abu G would convince the “Principles”? Nah, not possible.

      • scribe says:

        So it’s Gonzo the Spineless as opposed to Gonzo the Schemer….

        I’m as yet undecided on that. Not enough facts for me to make a call, though he surely seemed carefully honest and devious enough the times he testified to fit the latter.

  19. Nell says:

    I’m grateful for the advocacy role that Mary and bmaz and others play in these discussions. Without them, I’d never think through a fraction of the implications. Thanks, Marcy, and thanks, all.

    • Petrocelli says:

      Echoing Nell’s praise for bmaz, mary and other commenters.

      Reading the comments after the post is like enjoying a slice of Lemon Meringue Pie after a sumptuous Dinner.

  20. bmaz says:

    You mention the Bill of Rights issues and 8th Amendment concerns. In that regard, it should be noted that the official 2000 US document, through the State Dept., delineating the conditions, exceptions and reservations under which the US would participate in the CAT states:

    302. United States reservation. The United States conditioned its ratification upon the
    following reservation:

    [T]he United States considers itself bound by the obligation under Article 16 to prevent
    “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”, only insofar as the term “cruel,
    inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” means the cruel, unusual and inhumane
    treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth and/or Fourteenth Amendments
    to the Constitution of the United States.

    I I think the 8th and other elements of the Bill of Rights were a little more problematic for the torture brigade than they let on.

    • TomSullivan says:

      The text of those CAT reservations and exceptions is almost as discouraging as the OLC memos themselves. Like I said earlier, there’s a creative use of lots of “weasel words” – concerning the meaning of “prolonged,” “severe,” and “intentional.” As in (from a play I was in) “If we’re not going to get married, it can’t be premarital, can it? Let’s be logical.” As in, it can’t be punishment (cruel or otherwise) if there’s been no trial. It’s disgusting.

      If we can go to war against “terror” maybe we can declare war on weasel words.

      • skdadl says:

        As in, it can’t be punishment (cruel or otherwise) if there’s been no trial.

        We heard that argument made in SJC testimony, but I can’t remember who made it. Bradbury? Mukasey? Gonzales? One of those.

        • bmaz says:

          Scalia trotted out that same inapplicability of the 8th happy horse manure to Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes. It is total bunk, and there are all kinds of cases and precedent that say so,

        • skdadl says:

          Yes — I figure they were all in on some version of that conversation, so I guess it just became a talking-point. It’s the kind of thing I would remember from Gonzales, though. He was just so capable of saying the stupidest things in public.

        • Nell says:

          We heard that argument made in SJC testimony, but I can’t remember who made it.

          I think it was Scalia, making it in an opinion interview (corrected per bmaz, who is correct).

        • bmaz says:

          Yes, but I do think I remember it from a committee hearing of some sort too; can’t remember who the witness was.

    • emptywheel says:

      Right–that’s one of the really interesting tensions in the May 30th memo. CIA IG said, “you’re violating CAT.” Addington got together with the OLC lawyers and said, “lalalalalalala I can’t hear you.” Then Jello Jay said, “CIA IG said you’re violating CAT and CAT includes 5th, 8th, and 14th.” Grumble grumble grumble. Ten months later–at a time when Jello Jay was threatening investigation and Cheney said, “They’re killing us on the Hill,” he was pushing for this hard. So Bradbury does his “8th doesn’t count bc it’s not punishment and oh by the way Bagram and Gitmo don’t count as US jurisdiction” and voila, he gets a promotion!!!

      Whether or not Comey was critical of that stance, we know Zelikow was.

      But that’s one of teh tricks with this whole legality thing. They could have covered CIA’s ass with the May 10 memo, but closed off any more torture with the CAT memo. But it didn’t work out that way. That’s why they had to destroy Zelikow’s objections.

  21. JasonLeopold says:

    hi there folks. I am not sure if this is helpful but on pages 309 – 312 of Jane Mayer’s The Dark Side she writes about Comey’s clashes with Gonzales and others over this May 2005 memo as described in Comey’s emails and she offers additional quotes as to what Comey said to Gonzales and others about his concerns that I think may confirm EW’s post here. I may be interpreting it wrong but after reading EW’s post and then Jane Mayer’s narrative it appears to be the case.

      • JasonLeopold says:

        wow! Thanks so much for the heads up on this story. I had not seen it. Very interesting.

    • Mary says:

      Couple of things there.

      Mayer indicates that, while Levin had been drafting an opinion she puts it very differently than the NYT. She doesn’t say he drafted it for Bradbury but that Bradbury came in, took the draft and went to town with it himself. Any lawyer who revises someone else’s work can make it mean the total opposite and she indicates that Levin had included all kinds of reservations and limits that Bradbury took out.

      I have no idea who is correct or if it is a “some of this, some of that” situation.

      Mayer does say, too, that “[Comey] told colleagues that in his view, any one of the forms of physical and mental coercion that Bradbury had authorized could inflict severe pain and suffering on its own” which goes to my thought that his concurrence in the first May 10 memo was more political than based on legal analysis.

      The Mayer descriptions are hard to follow though, bc she didn’t have the three memo info and she starts on 309 as if she were talking about only the May 30 memo, the one finished in “late May” but then includes info on Comey telling others that combining the methods was “breathtakingly irresponsible” which seems to go to the second May 10memo.

      So it’s a bit of a mish mash to try to overlay them, but it’s helpful.

      • emptywheel says:

        I had the same thought about the Levin reference in the NYT, though–which is why I said they haven’t proven their case with Levin or Goldsmith.

        If I had to guess, I’d guess that Levin was the guy who put in the damning details about the IG report. But it was Bradbury who argued strict standards meant anything in this context. I’m almost certain that Levin put in the 183/83 numbers, because of the comment he made to Congress that if they had been told waterboarding happened just a few times, they had been misinformed.

    • emptywheel says:

      True, it tracks. But keep in mind that this all seems to be based on the recipients of these emails. So we should be careful of using them as validation for any reading of these emails. That said, I find this passage intriguing, given these emails:

      In late spring of 2005, Comey went to the Attorney General and said in essence, “OK–I get it that you won’t accept my interpretation of the law.” He then argued, “Just because you think you can do these things, it doesn’t mean you should.” The point, which was echoed also by Bellinger and Philip Zelikow, who by this point were both providing legal counsel to Condoleezza Rice at the State Department, was that tiptoeing along the outer edges of criminal law wasn’t necessarily the best policy. As Zelikow later put it, “There’s a gap between what’s right, and what’s legal.” Again, surprisingly, Attorney General Gonzales claimed to agree with the criticism. However, Vice President Cheney once again overpowered him.

      Soon after, in the late spring of 2005, Gonzales attended a Principals Committee meeting on the topic of detention policy. Comey prepped Gonzales for the debate, arming him with all kinds of arguments against torture and cruelty ans U.S. policy. But Gonzales returned from the meeting dejected and defeated. He told a subordinate that not a single cabinet member in attendance had any second thoughts about the CIA’s secret program. Cheney was adamant about it. Gonzales claimed that Rice, too, took a surprisingly hardline (although others disputed this assertion). Her position, according to the Attorney General, was that if the Justice Department said these harsh practices were legal, and the CIA said they worked, she was on board. The question of whether it was smart, and right, and in the interests of America’s long-term foreign-policy goals, Gonzales suggested, was not deemed worth talking about by fellow members of the Bush cabinet. Gonzales went along.

      This is interesting given the emails, first of all, because it suggests Gonzo went back and forth all month, that Comey had convinced him, at some point, that even with the OLC opinions AGAG should persuade (ha!) the other principals this was wrong. But then it suggests Cheney “overpowered” AGAG at some time before the Principals meeting.

      Then there’s AGAG’s version of the principal’s meeting. Interestingly he describes the Condi description–only caring about CIA and DOJ’s buyoff–as first happening at that meeting. While Comey describes AGAG as predicting that from Condi beforehand.

      Now it’s possible it was a different PC meeting, though I doubt it. Rather, it seems to suggest that AGAG had his story worked out, or had already tried some of this before going in.

      • phred says:

        Is it really possible that Comey so fundamentally misread Gonzo’s character? Gonzo strikes me as the sort of person that agrees with whoever he is with at the moment. He doesn’t have strong opinions of his own, but readily goes along. It’s this malleability that made him so useful to BushCo. He simply wasn’t one to stand in the way. For Comey to think that he could prep Gonzo to take a leading position in a Principals meeting strikes me as bizarre. Surely Comey must have understood this was simply not possible. I would not be the least surprised if Gonzo’s “dejection” was not due to defeat after a valiant attempt, but rather as a way to salve Comey’s feelings about his failure to even make the attempt.

        This whole story suggests that Comey’s own efforts to stand up to the torture regime were half-hearted at best. “Well, I tried to get Gonzales to do something. And anyway, I’m resigning. Oh well”.

        • emptywheel says:

          I think Comey recognized well that he could not affect this at all without Bush’s ear. That’s the only thing that worked with wiretapping (and frankly, I think we will ultimately learn that Bush just did enough to shut Comey up but then reverted to doing whatever he wanted as soon as he could). And at the point where Comey was, there was no fucking way Cheney was going to let him get close to Bush’s ear on this stuff–that’s what I take the reference about the principals only thing, and Comey’s reference about having nothing left to leverage since he had already resigned. Short of outing the whole program (which was already coming out anyway, and that didn’t stop them either), there was nothing he could really do.

        • Leen says:

          how would you have liked to be a fly on the wall when Comey did get Bush’s ear after the hospital scene?

        • phred says:

          If that’s the case (Comey needed a route to Bush), then the impotence he must of felt of having to rely on Gonzales must have been acute. I have always thought Gonzo’s presence in the Bush administration was desirable because he was easily manipulated/controlled. Now I wonder whether PapaDick was the one who advocated putting Gonzo into the AG position as a firewall between rebellious DoJ lawyers and Bush. Since AGAG could be counted on to cave to OVP’s every whim, and rank and file lawyers could not speak with Bush directly, then Cheney’s minimization of any lawyer revolt would be complete. It is a pity that there was not a mass resignation in 2004. Had there been, I think Cheney and Addington would have lost control of DoJ.

      • JasonLeopold says:

        Thanks so much for this excellent explanation and for honing in on that passage. And thank you too Mary for providing your insight. This is very helpful in understanding how this fits into the bigger pictures.

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          “Bigger Picture” at my 81, I hope.
          Apologize for the length, but I admit that the review of Blumenthal’s writings on that period really blew my mind.

          Hope it’s helpful for the thread, despite its length.
          (And dammit, I’m missing Eric Boelert’s Book Salon. Grrr!)

        • JasonLeopold says:

          that is INCREDIBLE work!!!! Thank you so very much for taking the time to put this together. I’ve been going through books this afternoon just to try and piece things together and you just saved me quite a bit of time and I thank you for it!

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      Well, I don’t have a copy of Mayer’s book, but it’s a Sunday afternoon so I took Sidney Blumenthal’s “How Bush Rules” off my shelf for a quick review, and wow — the events of April-May 2005 are quite interesting and make it very clear why Cheney was putting so much pressure on Gonzo (and Comey) during those weeks:

      15 April 2005: Hearings for John Bolton as Amb. to U.N. had inadvertantly uncovered some interesting things:
      (a) the Bolton hearings were revealing that both the Senate Intelligence Committee (Chaired by Pat Roberts, Pathetic WH Suckup R of KS), and the WH ‘Investigation’ about pre-Iraq WMD stories blamed the intelligence agencies and diverted any responsibility from Congress or the WH.

      (b) Carl Ford, the former Dir. of Intel for Dept of State, had gone on record to state that John Bolton was ‘a quintessential kiss-up, kick down sort of guy.”

      (c) Condi Rice was closing ranks with the WH and screwing her own Dept of State employees by supporting Bolton.

      By 28 April 2005,
      (a) Armitage (Powell’s former right-hand guy) was heading up the infighting against Bolton’s nomination.

      (b) And former Powell Chief of Staff Larry Wilkerson was telling the NYT – for attribution – that Bolton would be ‘abysmal’ as an ambassador.

      (c) Meanwhile, in the US House, Majority Leader Dennis Hastert was continuing the DeLay-Gingrich tactics of allowing the Dems absolutely no say, no rights, no input. This was supposed to help Bush get his changes to Medicare through the Congress.

      (d) In the Senate, the Republicans were busy trying to eliminate the filibuster on judicial nominations. (yeah, read that and weep…)

      (e) the Bolton Hearings had exposed the fact that John Bolton requested — AND RECEIVED — at least 10 NSA intercepts involving ‘past and present government officials’. Senate Foreign Relations staff had become suspicious that Bolton was spying on Powell and his senior advisors. That meant it was possible that Bolton was sharing info about Powell with OVP and Feith’s nest of spies at DoD/OSP.

      By 19 May 2005, Guantanamo and the general topic of ‘torture’ was flaring up and the BushCheney cabal was pushing back very, very decisively:

      (a) Blumenthal reported that “…Isikoff has become the Lynndie England of the Washington press corps’. The BushCheney admin had turned Isikoff and Newsweek into a scapegoat “…for the disastrous consequences of [the admin’s] torture policies” because Isikoff had reported that a Koran had been flushed down a toilet at Guantanamo (his single source then burned him). Riots ensued, people died, and the WH blamed Isikoff and Newsweek for the tragedy and uproar.

      (b) – p. 193, “While the administration faults Newsweek for relying on a flawed source, it has refused to respond specifically to the reports of the SSIC and the Comm on the Intell Capabilities of the US regarding [WMD] that in constructing its case for going to war in Iraq it relied on disinformation from bogus Iraq emigre sources, especially the agent dubbed Curveball, who was exposed as a duplicitous alcoholic….The controversy about the desecrated Koran touches on merely one technique of abusing Guantanamo inmates. Many other methods of torture have been ‘authenticated’, including persistent abuse of Islam…”

      (c) -.p 194 Inside the Wire, by Erik Saar (with Viveca Novak (!)) had just been published; it revealed sexually depraved conduct at Gitmo and Saar described ‘hating himself’ after being part of interrogations at Gitmo.

      (d) Human Rights Watch had just published ‘Getting Away With Torture? Command Responsibility for US Abuse of Detainees’… discussing why “shocked” FBI agents had been ordered not to be present at torture sessions and starting to lift the lid on ‘cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment’.

      (e) Lynndie England’s trial had just finished, and Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski had been charged with “dereliction of duty” AND shoplifting. (Go figure.) For more, see p. 195.

      ====================

      Sorry about the length, but it’s a Sunday afternoon and I admit that my jaw dropped about ten times as I read the “April / May 2005″ sections of Blumenthal’s excellent book.

      I’d completely forgotten what happened the month of May 2005, but in retrospect it’s clear that Cheney would have put a lot of pressure on Gonzo, who promptly folded. That would have been a period in which they were probably working overtime to make their actions and orders appear to have been ‘legal’. And they still had Republican control of both House and Senate at that time.

      And from EW’s Ghorbanifar Timeline, we know that “May 3, 2005: Franklin charged with espionage in sealed complaint”, which no doubt elicited some panic among the OVP Fourth Branch. (Feith would ‘depart’ DoD in August 2005.)

  22. freepatriot says:

    the Times ain’t takin comments with this bit of lies

    I’m thinkin they learned the wrong lesson from the bumiller episode

    if we print the bullshit without including a comments thread, the readers can’t make their complaints public, yeah, lets do that …

    fucking cowards

  23. Jkat says:

    one thing is certain .. comey was correct when he said “this is going to bite y’all in the ass someday” ..

    “someday” is getting nigh .. imo ..

  24. rincewind says:

    (I have huge problems with both the purpose and the provenance of these three emails, and their leakage; but to question ew’s informed speculation would be the height of tinfoildom ;> So, turning to a specific area that MAY reward further pursuit…)

    What ARE the “concerns” that Comey (and Philbin) had, that COULD be “made right in a week” but not in a day, due to the need for “fact gathering”?

    from the 2005-04-27 memo:

    Philbin — “serious concerns about the adequacy of the ‘combined effects’ analysis, particularly as it relates to the category of ’severe physical suffering’,”

    Comey — “agreed with his concerns”

    Comey — (WRT most recent draft) “concerns were not allayed, only heightened”

    Abu G — asked Comey “to try to come up with a way to alter the second opinion to address the concerns” Comey raised

    Comey — suggested to Philbin “a possible way to narrow the focus of the second opinion to be more responsible

    Comey — told Philbin to tell Bradbury and Ullyot the necessary changes couldn’t be made by Friday; “would involve fact gathering that we could not complete by Friday”

    from the 2005-04-28 memo:

    Ullyot — interpreted Philbin’s concerns as “the prospective nature” and “its focus on ‘prototypical’ interrogation

    Comey — told Ullyot “small slice of my concerns, which I then laid out in detail”; and “it could be made right in a week

    Ullyot — refers to Comey’s request to OLC “to make the opinion focused on one person

    Comey — “the treatment of that person had been the subject of oral advice”

    So the only “concern” Comey tells us about specifically is the “Severe Physical Suffering” section of the “Combined Effects” memo; which Ullyot understands from Philbin to be about presenting it all as hypotheticals and OLC not being willing to cut it down to what was actually done to one particular individual (although Comey says that’s only part of the problem).

    Comey says that “narrowing the focus…to be more responsible” could be accomplished with “fact gathering” in “a week”; with the implication that the treatment of one particular individual is involved in this fact gathering; with the further implication that this would resolve his (and Philbin’s) problems with the “Severe Physical Suffering” analysis.

    I’ve read and re-read that wretched document to the point of nightmares, and I just don’t see how the “physical suffering” section stands out from the “physical pain” or the “mental pain and suffering” sections??? What makes it different? or (dog help us) less “RESPONSIBLE”?

    That section deals almost entirely with sleep deprivation, just touching on waterboarding, and a bare mention of shackling.

    Comey is trying to “make right” whatever happened to one particular person (and immunize the people who did whatever it was), while not giving carte blanche for whatever it was to happen again, yes? What set of “facts” could provide cover for the perps in the first instance and ALSO be used to limit future occurrences?

    • emptywheel says:

      If I’m right that this is about Ghul, it’s probably the sleep deprivation side of things, not the waterboarding.

      But one of the key issues here, particularly in sleep deprivation, is that sleep deprivation was just a means to use stress positions that weren’t otherwise authorized (and note, it was cited in some of the Afghan deaths, so we know it was a problem legally). And keep in mind that Ghul was reported to be obese and have heart problems. I can see how chaining his arms over his head in the name of sleep deprivation could head in a really awful direction quickly.

      And I agree with Mary–I think he would have used specific facts from Ghul’s interrogation to explain why it was reasonable to do this to him, but why it should never be done again. Does that make sense?

      • rincewind says:

        If it’s Ghul, would the basis of the retroactive “exoneration” be for his physical condition or for his claimed “value”? (or both?) And Comey’s attempt to restrict sleep-deprivation (with or without +other?) going forward would hinge on beefing up all the “monitoring” and “limitations” and “medical interventions”?

        And separately, I really want to know how (or on WHOM) they discovered that they had to put waterboardees on a liquid diet first?

        • emptywheel says:

          They may have learned from SERE or their torture allies about the liquid diet, bc it appears they did it with AZ from the start.

          As to Ghul, there are a number of reasons they had to do it retroactively–why is one of my biggest questions, given all the correspondence about approvals the previous August when they did whatever they did. But they would have wanted to restrict the sleep deprivation pretty severely, IMO, bc it had been abused so much by DOD. In the “Techniques” memo they even say no one in CIA custody had had a problem with it, the implication of course being that in DOD it had killed people.

        • rincewind says:

          The language in the Combined Effects memo doesn’t say that — in fact, it’s worded so oddly that I made a note of it (from pg 15 of the PDF):

          “the CIA has found that many of the at least 25 detainees subjected to sleep deprivation have tolerated it well.”

          which only leaves me to wonder about the SOME who didn’t “tolerate it well” (and of course, whose definition of “tolerate” and whose definition of “well”).

  25. rosalind says:

    ot: via dkos “Investors ask US top court to delay Chrysler sale”

    Indiana pension funds asked the U.S. Supreme Court Sunday to immediately delay the sale of bankrupt automaker Chrysler LLC to a group led by Italian carmaker Fiat…The Chrysler ruling could set a precedent for the case of General Motors Corp which is using a similar quick sale strategy in its bankruptcy in New York.

  26. SaltinWound says:

    I don’t take at face value that Gonzales said any of the things at the Principals meeting that he told Comey he said. It’s almost a cliche in business, someone saying they fought the good fight, when really they didn’t. It also wouldn’t surprise me if Comey knew Gonzales was never going to frame the argument the way he wanted him to, he knew before and after the Principals meeting. By this time, he had confirmation that Gonzales couldn’t be trusted.

    • skdadl says:

      When we’re assessing the Gonzales state of mind, I think it’s important to remember how he allowed himself to be used as a congressional punching bag for months and months in the late winter/spring/early summer of 2007.

      I don’t think that anyone does that as doggedly as he did without knowing full well what he’s doing, and without some private assurances in the background.

      It’s one thing for us to see him as a moral (and other) weakling, but it’s another to see him doing something sort of like what Libby did. If Gonzales were just a naive weakling, he wouldn’t have been able to keep up those absurd performances as long as he did, or to take the constant pounding and kicking. By the end, even he was snickering at his own answers.

      He knew.

  27. Loo Hoo. says:

    Wasn’t Philip Zelikow Condi’s council at the time? So was he advising her on this issue, telling her to pretend she doesn’t know what the exact “enhanced” tactics were?

  28. constantweader says:

    Marcy, thanks for your fascinating analysis. I guess I’ll have to break down & read the darned memos.

    It’s pretty interesting that this story came out at the same time the NYT ombudsman Hoyt recapped some of your points on the Bumiller story about the 1-in-7 recidivism rate for released Gitmo prisoners (without attribution, if I recall correctly). Looks like the Pulitzer committee will have to start giving prizes for stenography.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

    • Mauimom says:

      It’s pretty interesting that this story came out at the same time the NYT ombudsman Hoyt recapped some of your points on the Bumiller story about the 1-in-7 recidivism rate for released Gitmo prisoners

      Why doesn’t the NYT – oh, excuse me, “Tabloid Trollope” — just hire Marcy as ombudsman [ombudsperson?].

      Or at least throw some dimes into our tip jar over here to assure her continued performance of the job their ombudsman SHOULD be doing. Makes it easy for him: she does all the legwork; he writes it up.

      Send money please.

  29. fatster says:

    O/T. Dick “Dick’s” KBR apparently figures prominently in this.

    APNewsBreak: Major problems found in war spending

    By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jun 7, 3:27 pm ET

    “In its first report to Congress, the Wartime Contracting Commission presents a bleak assessment of how tens of billions of dollars have been spent since 2001. The 111-page report, obtained by The Associated Press, documents poor management, weak oversight, and a failure to learn from past mistakes as recurring themes in wartime contracting.

    “The report is scheduled to be made public Wednesday at a hearing held by the House Oversight and Government Reform’s national security subcommittee.

    “U.S. reliance on contractors has grown to “unprecedented proportions,” says the bipartisan commission, established by Congress last year. More than 240,000 private sector employees are supporting military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thousands more work for the State Department and U.S. Agency for International Development.

    “But the government has no central data base of who all these contractors are, what services they provide, and how much they’re paid. The Pentagon has failed to provide enough trained staff to watch over them, creating conditions for waste and corruption, the commission says.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ing_report

  30. JasonLeopold says:

    Hey all. Check out this story from the NYT dated Oct. 4, 2007 and written by the very same reporters (plus one more) who wrote yesterday’s story. Doesn’t this story seem to contradict what they wrote yesterday? This is the story that should have come out yesterday based on the emails I would think.

    • TheraP says:

      Great find, Jason! That’s exactly what I meant way up above that the Times article was lacking in both context and analysis – exactly what you can find in the 2007 article you’ve linked to.

      Also kudos @ 89!

      I mean, for goodness sake, the Times is able to provide background and analysis for airliners that go down. But they can’t do it for crimes as important as torture?

      Truly, when the Sunday Times does better with a humor op-ed piece (which wasn’t even by a Times writer!) than actual reporting on the front page, things have arrived at a terrible place! (By the way, you can now BUY your way onto the front page of the Times if you just buy an ad – it’s that bad! Our subscription is not long for this world, I think.)

      Thank god for this blog – and other like-minded writers on the web! My enormous gratitude for all those who are sincerely trying to understand these strange and terrible times we’re living through!

      • JasonLeopold says:

        Ah thanks! As I was reading that story I was wondering what the reporters were thinking when they published yesterday’s story and I also wondered whether they had gone back to their previous reporting and/or sources. It’s so strange.

    • Jeff Kaye says:

      Two things stick out to me in this earlier NYT piece, besides the Comey-Gonzalez issue, so this is slightly OT.

      One, it asserts the following:

      With virtually no experience in interrogations, the C.I.A. had constructed its program in a few harried months by consulting Egyptian and Saudi intelligence officials and copying Soviet interrogation methods long used in training American servicemen to withstand capture.

      The bolded text refers to a meme that is consistently repeated, and certainly a lie (though the reporters may believe it). Such assertions, as if they are truth, are part of the mythology of the common framing of the torture story, and they should be questioned. In fact, and I hope to demonstrate this shortly, the use of SERE interrogation techniques was foreseen by a CIA researcher psychologists in the 1950s. Furthermore, it began under the auspices of conducting debriefings of repatriated prisoners or hostages, and then became debriefings of “targets of opportunity.” This was all before 9/11.

      Also the CIA had plenty of experience with interrogations; they even wrote the book on it, literally (KUBARK interrogation manual). Then there was Operation Phoenix, which they ran, though staffed mostly by South Vietnamese.

      I think the article’s later statement was more to the point. For various reasons, agents had become leery of conducting interrogations themselves, for fear of later legal scrutiny, and they had a recent case of their own to taunt them:

      Interrogators were worried that even approved techniques had such a painful, multiplying effect when combined that they might cross the legal line, Mr. Kelbaugh [former legal deputy counsel at CTC] said. He recalled agency officers asking: “These approved techniques, say, withholding food, and 50-degree temperature — can they be combined?” Or “Do I have to do the less extreme before the more extreme?”

      The questions came more frequently, Mr. Kelbaugh said, as word spread about a C.I.A. inspector general inquiry unrelated to the war on terrorism. Some veteran C.I.A. officers came under scrutiny because they were advisers to Peruvian officers who in early 2001 shot down a missionary flight they had mistaken for a drug-running aircraft. The Americans were not charged with crimes, but they endured three years of investigation, saw their careers derailed and ran up big legal bills.

      That experience shook the Qaeda interrogation team, Mr. Kelbaugh said.

      Thanks for the direction to the NYT piece. The link with the Peruvian story helps fill in some gaps.

      • Jeff Kaye says:

        If anyone is interested in this somewhat OT story re the Peruvian plane shoot-down, but relevant to the question of CIA lying, the CIA inspector general report was released to Congress last year (emphasis added):

        The inspector general’s report said the CIA withheld from the National Security Council, Justice Department and Congress the results of multiple investigations that documented continuous and significant violations of aircraft interception procedures created to prevent the shooting down of planes unconnected with the drug trade. The classified report was completed in August and sent to Congress in October.

        The CIA report directly contradicted the State Department’s findings in 2001. The State Department at the time said the other planes were shot down only after “exhausting international procedures for interception.”

        CIA Director Michael Hayden is appointing a six-person board, including two current CIA officers, to determine whether any disciplinary action is warranted, spokesman Mark Mansfield said.

      • JasonLeopold says:

        Hey Jeff. Thanks for pulling that nugget out of the story. That’s a very good analysis. It’s a separate story in and of itself.

  31. Jkat says:

    that’d be “under color of authority” rkilowatt .. and there’s not two cents difference between the terms “under color of law” ..or “under color of authority ” .. they both normally signify an impermissible action undertaken by an ‘agency of power’ ..

    “under color of law” .. “under color of authority” .. “under color of office” .. they’re fairly interchangeable terms in common usage ..

    but .. i await bmaz straightening you out on this particular nit you’ve picked …

  32. drational says:

    I don’t see Comey at all Naive in the emails.
    Comey is dead man walking, having resigned in part because he is impotent. He is charting his “good faith” efforts to change the system to stop torture. He “convinced” Gonzales to make a stand at the principals meeting? Nah.
    He is documenting Gonzales as the final WHO infiltration of the DOJ helping execute the torture insult.
    He is naming names in these emails. Condi, who didn’t distinguish between legal and right, Gonzales, who was surrounded by underminers and was himself a tool, and Cheney and Addington who were the criminals.

    These emails are for posterity, to shine his asscheeks for the investigations he saw coming.

    And I totally agree with EW who has nailed the peignoir that Cheney bought onto SJ and the Times once again.

    • bmaz says:

      These emails are for posterity, to shine his asscheeks for the investigations he saw coming.

      The least he could possibly do was cover his own ass, and the least is exactly what he did. I will agree with EW that I don’t know if Comey would have been successful if he had tried to do more (maybe OPR will show he indeed tried more, but I expect not a lot more from Comey himself in there, maybe others). Were there additional things on torture he could have done, yes; but the real mark is on the wiretapping where there was a lot more (for instance communication with the FISC).

      • Loo Hoo. says:

        Were there additional things on torture he could have done, yes; but the real mark is on the wiretapping where there was a lot more (for instance communication with the FISC).

        What more should he have done, could he have done? I just wonder how classified all of this information was (and I assume classified to the X). Specifically, what was his responsibility legally, and what could he have done? Alerted Senators? Gone to the press? Had people arrested?

        • WilliamOckham says:

          He could have done at least as much as Jessica Radack did which was to give honest advice and stand by it. Of course, Jessica Radack was fired, blackballed and threatened with jail time for her conclusion that somebody should have read John Walker Lindh his rights. He could have done what Alberto Mora did and put up a real fight to stop torture. He could have done as much as Matthew Diaz did when he leaked the names of the Guantanamo detainees and spent 6 months in a military prison for doing the right thing. Comey talks a good fight, but he had to have known about all the criminal referrals that the CIA IG had sent over for clear war crimes violations and he, as far as we know, did nothing about that.

        • bmaz says:

          What WO said. And, yes LooHoo, he could have gone to certain members of Congress. He could have coordinated with Helgerson and, as I alluded to above, there was a ton he could have done as to the “other program”. Would it have been successful, I don’t know. Would it have been personally trying for him, most certainly. Would he have gotten his super cushy job on the dole at Lockheed, I doubt it very seriously. And clearly his own well being and cushy ass job at Lockheed was exactly what he was concerned about as opposed to destruction of the American Constitution, rule of law and national ethos. He should have tried, but he took the easy covering his own ass way out. He is very, very far from being an admirable man, much less the hero he gets falsely painted as being.

        • Jeff Kaye says:

          Totally agree, and with bmaz and drational. I can see that Comey is not Gonzalez. I can see that NYT gets spun to muddy the OPC waters, as Marcy points out. But I can’t make Comey into any sort of hero on this score.

    • skdadl says:

      nailed the peignoir

      Eyebrows up? What am I missing? I just get my head around poignant, and now I am trying to figure out nails in peignoirs? Help?

    • SparklestheIguana says:

      These emails are for posterity, to shine his asscheeks for the investigations he saw coming.

      And I totally agree with EW who has nailed the peignoir that Cheney bought onto SJ and the Times once again.

      Thanks for the images.

      What does it mean to nail a peignoir, exactly?

  33. Loo Hoo. says:

    So WO and baz, you’re saying much the same thing. He worried about his personal fortunes above the USA. ?

    Somebody *why does the same fucker always come to mind?* that his good fortune with Lockheed had to do with him acquiescing on the torture issue?

    I kinda hope you’re wrong, but seriously doubt that.

    • WilliamOckham says:

      Sadly, he’s not even close to the worst of the bunch. He does look positively heroic in comparison to Bybee, Yoo, and Bradbury. But only in comparison to those guys. Being the noblest member of that gang of thugs obviously isn’t much to brag about.

      On that happy note, I’m off to get some sleep. Unfortunately, when I wake up there’ll still be people suffering in GITMO and Bagram. That nightmare continues. Some part of that continuing suffering is the responsibility of James Comey, Esq. I wonder how he sleeps at night.

  34. bmaz says:

    I agree with WO @ 130, Comey is certainly not the worst of the bunch; heck, he may be arguably one of the best. But as WO said, that isn’t saying much. What bugs me, and why I am so harsh on him, is that you can see the primordial pangs of morality and conscience in Comey. And he is one of the very few that actually had the potential wherewithall and position to do something about it; there were not many that had a real shot at making a dent in what hell was transpiring. But Comey did and, yet, his record is pretty lame. Understand, it is a hell of a lot easier to sit here at a computer thousands of miles away and after the fact and say that, but it is in against all odds situations like Comey was in that make heroes, and he did not perform as one. He is like Zelikow and several others, we are left to say semi-positive things about them because the the rest of the perpetrators were even more cretinous. Yippee, yay for Comey. Or not.

    • klynn says:

      bmaz,

      My take on Comey has been all along, not a heroic one, but one of understanding that he has probably left behind a trail of information which might be turningpoint information irt torture. I’ve been confident about that fact for a while. I understand “why” the Comey “F-bombs” fly here. It would take a long Oxdown to fully explain my reasons for seeing Comey not as a hero but at least as one to leave the evidence behind to guide investigations. However, I would imagine that Marcy shares the following thought: It was no surprise that Comey was the focal attack of the NYT’s piece.

      I have been visiting his WIKI page on a regular basis since his resignation due to his “loaded” resignation speech. There have been some regular postings which come up on his page that are inappropriate and involve naming his family members.

      Threats against one’s children can reduce one’s call to heroic acts. Especially if you have experienced the pain of the loss of a child.

      He’s not a paragon of virtue but I think we’ll find in the coming weeks that he did leave some type of trail which will be damning evidence. I’ll bet that on a copy of Neiburh’s book, Moral Man and Immoral Society.

      “Civilization depends upon the vigorous pursuit of the highest values by people who are intelligent enough to know that their values are qualified by their interests and corrupted by their prejudices.”

      The measure of our rationality determines the degree of vividness with which we appreciate the needs of other life, the extent to which we become conscious of the real character of our own motives and impulses, the ability to harmonize conflicting impulses in our own life and in society, and the capacity to choose adequate means for approved ends.”

      -Reinhold Niebuhr

      • bmaz says:

        The difference is that you seem convinced he has “left breadcrumbs” as some kind of intentional positive affirmative act with the intent of helping the country and accountability; something selfless. On the other hand, I maintain that any specks you see along the way are not positive breadcrumbs but the detritus from his self serving covering of his own ass and those of the people that have done more damage to the Constitutional rule of law and morality in this country than any group of men in the history. You seem to think he is okay and that there is something admirable there; I don’t. I find the sum of Comey to be still quite bitter and disgusting.

        • TheraP says:

          With all due respect, it’s possible to have multiple motives play into one’s behavior, however flaws those motives may be.

        • bmaz says:

          Listen, if you are determined to cobble your hopes and dreams for positive morality onto this pile of dung, with scant to no evidence to support it, be my guest. But the analogy above to German citizens helping the effort is pure and unadulterated rubbish; rather, in your analogy, Comey would be a high officer in the Third Reich. That is not a place I would have gone.

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          I disagree, fairly strongly.
          The CheneyBots hated Comey; the fact that he’d appointed Fitz in Dec 2003, after almost certainly working with Ashcroft to recuse himself, almost won Comey the undying enmity of the Cheney/OVP crowd.

          In my own, very tiny, little way, I’ve also ‘left breadcrumbs’ and ‘walked out with documents’ that I filed carefully away to assist with lawsuits that I hoped would come. It takes focus, time, and energy to do that — it’s a damn sight easier to simply sign off on something without taking the extra time to think ahead about what language, what topics, what data, what details are going to be most relevant to someone 2 or 4 years down the line.

          It’s a lot easier to just sign off and cover your own ass; reading the exerpts shown here suggest to me that Comey was deliberately leaving the best trail that he knew how.

          And he was doing it at a time when he knew that he may well have been surveilled by OVP and the NSA, when he surely realized that K-k-k-karl Rove was the person pulling Kyle Sampson’s puppet strings, when Alice Fisher was screwing with prosecutions in places like Alabama.

          Bear in mind, also, that Jack Abramoff apparently wasn’t indicted until August of 2005; at the time that Comey was leaving his breadcrumbs, Delay still had an iron grip on the House, and Frist the Senate. The BushCheney GOP appeared at that time to have a stranglehold on US government.

        • bmaz says:

          Yes, Comey is a true American hero of the highest order. We should make a patriotic movie about him and let him heroically play himself. Just like Audie Murphy.

          I agree to some extent with what Mary said in the next post about some CYA being part of the position and not necessarily a foul thing. I will give Comey that; anything beyond that appears totally ludicrous to me. In my mind, a man that authorized what I laid out in @7 above, that permitted the perfidy of the Bush/Cheney torture program and that blithely reauthorized the still illegal wiretapping and gross surveillance program soon as his and his precious Ashcroft’s ass were covered deserves nothing in the way of admiration, and he sure as hell is no hero. You are entitled to your worship in peace, I have said mine.

        • TheraP says:

          @141 and @142 are not connected to each other.

          Each is a separate reply to a separate comment by a different commenter. For different reasons.

          I’d put myself in the corner with klynn. And to identify with those trying to oppose wrongdoing is not the same as saying that the wrongdoers are equivalent in the two situations.

          As klynn points out we all have mixed motives. That’s what Niebuhr is saying, it would seem. Plus, to try and alert one’s fellow citizens and see them vote for repubs anyway is crazy-making, at least in my book.

          All that being said, I’d rather be on a side you’re on – than a side comey is on.

        • klynn says:

          I see them as both CYA and breadcrumbs. Since they are probably “both”, it does not make him the least admirable or noble. I am more or less, just appreciative of further documentation out there which may serve to bring down those who have damaged the Constitutional rule of law and morality in this country more than any group of people in history. I am also thankful there are multiple drafts out there, and documentation of such “marked-up” drafts via emails, that state that those who today claim a moral ground/9-11/fear tactic/we checked the law and were lawful – were in fact given written apprehension/concern of their interpretation/violation of the law.

          BTW, my take on Comey comes from my own writings on Niebuhr irt Just War Theory. I view some of Comey’s struggles with his role as assisting AG through this lens due to Niebuhr being of influence on Comey. Comey being influenced by Nieburh does not make him “saintly” in my eyes but it does make me think he is more aware of his “sinner” side with regards to his public service. For what it is worth.

          And, I may be jaded by my own grandmother’s and great grandfather’s work to oppose Hitler, but their efforts failed obviously. To this day, I am at least thankful they tried. They lost a son/brother due to their efforts. Thus, I am further jaded, I suppose.

      • TheraP says:

        Your comment reminds me of a book review from Sunday’s Times, which speaks of Germans who tried to both alert fellow citizens (and western nations) to what the Nazis were doing as well as to leave a trail of evidence, and how discouraged they felt that no one seemed to take notice of what was so clear to them. I can assure you I’ve felt during these years of bushco and even now:

        the insanity-inducing sensation they felt at being unable to convince their fellow citizens of the evil engulfing German society while, at the same time, having no idea if and when the madness would end.

        Seems to me those they have tortured must feel the induced insanity to the max!

  35. SebastianDangerfield says:

    Nothing substantive to add to the excellent post and penetrating commentary, but I will say this: The fact that this “story” (i.e., attempted-asscovering spin from the Cheney/Bradbury camp) has been leaked so as to command Monday’s headlines means that it is time to melt a stick of butter and break out the finest corn kernels, cuz methinks someone knows that a very, very unflattering OPR report is soon to be released.

    I think that Bradbury is the most likely culprit here, as he is in the most delicate position of all of this rogue’s gallery, given that at the time he had the most to gain from pleasing his doms. As I recall Bradbury’s pissing backwards on the early memos was featured prominently in the press when the last round of memos was released. No accident, that. Bradbury’s worried about a whole lot more than his reputation.

  36. klynn says:

    bmaz,

    Quick question…

    As you would build a case against Cheney and co on torture, would you use the Comey emails or any evidence Comey makes reference to (legally mark up memos and his own notes) in those emails as evidence?

    • bmaz says:

      That would depend on the specific charges being contemplated and the specific theory of the case behind bringing them; it is really impossible to say. Do I think they are potentially probative evidence, yes they may well be. But, by the same token, evidence is at its most valuable when it comes from the mouthes and hands of the most directly complicit; so I am not sure it is a feather in his cap that this might get used.

  37. 1boringoldman says:

    Mary mentions a comment in the emails that haunts me. Comey talks about giving Gonzales “a card” with a listing of all [Torture?] techniques “including some things that never get mentioned because they are ‘preliminary.’” What is he talking about? It seems important. Comey was pleading with Gonzales to do the right thing, to talk some sense into the Principals. In his last act, he hands this “card” to AG Alberto Gonzales.

    It sounds like some other “nasty” stuff about these torture techniques, confirming that the Memos were being addressed to a fictional and sanitized version [The first Bradbury Memo actually alludes to that with all of its disclaimers]. But what it also says is that Comey testifying on a stand or in a Hearing may be even more dangerous to the Principals than we knew, and may suggest a possible reason for the pre-emptive strike by the distortions in the New York Times article.

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      Dunno what happened, but here’s how I read it:
      Comey had been trying to bring Gonzo around to discussing all the ‘techniques’. He may have written them on a card in order to make sure he didn’t miss anything — sort of a ‘things to cover list’ on a handy, card-sized reminder note.

      I could certainly be incorrect.
      But that’s how I read it: “Gonzo, listen you jackass, I’ll write you a list you, moron, since otherwise you’re going to flip out and forget one or two of these items…”

      • 1boringoldman says:

        Maybe, but “including some things that never get mentioned because they are ‘preliminary.’” sounds like there was more. I’d love to have Comey answer that in a Congressional Hearing. My hunch is that it might be like Shumer’s question in the U.S. Attorney firings Hearings when he asked about Comey’s evening hospital visit to Ashcroft’s room – an eye-opener

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