As Goes the Chevy Volt, So Goes America?
Me driving a Chevy Volt mule
Yes, I’m being a bit cruel, posting this the week that GM will probably declare bankruptcy. But that may make the question more apt, particularly given rising concerns about the US’ own credit rating.
As I told you all a million weeks ago, I had the opportunity to drive a mule version of the Chevy Volt around GM’s Tech Center about a month ago (it’s in a Cruze body). Perhaps it’s because I did the test drive and not our true car wonk, bmaz, but I found the drive as interesting for the big picture issues underlying the Volt as for the test drive itself.
The Car
My thoughts about the car come largely from the biggest reason I didn’t seriously consider a Prius when I bought a new car last year. I prefer small, efficient cars–with manual transmissions, so I can get what power they have when I need it. It would take a lot to convince me to give up my stick shift and the Prius, with its underpowered engine, wasn’t able to do that (particularly not after a friend drove me around the hills of SF in it).
The Volt I drove–which has 80% of the functionality the production car will have–had enough power to convince me to give up a stick shift. It was immediately responsive and the pickup was good. The Volt, like the Prius, also has regenerative braking that uses the engine to brake (making it akin to downshifting), which is another feature that might get me out of my stick shift.
Otherwise, the car drove like a car. bmaz isn’t going to set any speed records with it, but it is responsive and feels like a substantial car.
I say it "feels like a car" and that’s largely deliberate. Though it runs silently, as you’d expect an electric car to, the GM engineers have tweaked the engine so it mimics what people now expect out of combustion engine, such as a pause where the car would normally shift out of first. There’s an interesting balance, it seems to me, in the engineering decisions they’ve made, between playing to the futuristic side of the Volt, and to the expectations of your typical driver.
Custom car
One of the more futuristic things they will have on the car are custom themes–background color for the dash screens and custom sounds, just like your cell phone has. At one level, I think this idea is really just a marketing gimmick–in the same way people spend a lot to customize their iPod or cell phone, they could customize their car. But there are two more reasons I find this idea intriguing.
The plug-in and the engine
It’s one of the things about the engineering that fascinates me the most about the car–the effort to strike a balance between current expectations and the futuristic side of this car.
First, as bmaz and I have talked about repeatedly in threads, one of the biggest challenges of going electric is that car companies–all car companies–rely on the regular maintenance required by a combustion engine to keep their dealers fiscally healthy. Because electric cars have different maintenance needs, you’d either have to give dealers more front-end profit, or they would have a disincentive to sell it (this is one of the things that killed the EV1). But if you change the relationship between dealers and owners, then you might find an alternative retail model. This customization business might do that. (Also, after GM sheds 1,200 dealers over the next year, dealers will be more profitable and therefore more willing to sell something like this, so there’s an upside to all those closing dealers.)
But the focus on customization also shows the degree to which this car has been designed with a kind of adaptability in mind. Partly, that’s part of its parallel design with the Cruze, which reflects a more modular design than GM has used in the past. But partly, it’s a sign that GM is thinking of how it can customize the Volt itself in a second generation to more specifically meet the needs ot consumers. For example, they talked about a cheaper, 20-mile range Volt that soccer moms might like, or a more souped up Volt for bmaz.
The Volt, as packaged, will be a car that will appeal to a certain kind of early-adopter. But you can tell GM is thinking down the road about ways to extend the concept and adopting to consumers with different needs.
The bigger picture
As I said, though, the most interesting part of the test drive for me was the way it fit into bigger picture issues. If this car works, it’ll work partly because of the stimulus and the bailout. And it’ll introduce a much more holistic view of transportation.
Start with the bailout and–prior to that–incentives for energy efficient developments. Some of the efficiency incentive money will go to a stateside factory for the battery; once fully operational, this will shave $200 off the battery costs alone (because shipping costs will be so high for these batteries).
The battery running the length of the car
There is potential money, too, to go into infrastructure for plug-ins (and the plug-in technology has been standardized enough that it’ll work for anyone’s plug-in). So right now, GM is working with cities, pitching them to use stimulus funds that will make plug-in infrastructure available in urban areas. They’re also going to talk to employers–companies like Google and Apple–about partnering with governments (maybe 50/50) so as to make charging stations available at their work locations. Undoubtedly, Toyota and smaller electric car companies will be doing the same. But given that you’ve got a company in which the federal government will have a substantial stake (assuming this week’s expected bankruptcy goes somewhat according to plan), you’re going to see some focus on making sure that infrastructure gets funded and built. This part is just my speculation, not anything that the GM guys said, but the coincidence of the bailout and possible bankruptcy with the stimulus funds already being appropriated make the chances much higher that you’re going to see some urban areas prepped to run this and other plug-in vehicles.
But GM is not relying on the government for these deals. The car will have some upgraded features that suppliers designed just to be a part of this car: a Bose sound system, tires, and so on.
And then there was a holistic approach to the car as a whole. One thing they’re thinking about is how to "dispose" of the batteries. GM is testing these batteries for a 10-year or 150,000 lifespan. But they expect after that point the batteries will still have a lot of usable capacity left–perhaps up to 75%. So they’re beginning to talk to potential partners–utilities and large landlords–about using the batteries to store energy for backup power generation.
There’s a lot that remains uncertain about the Volt’s future. There are still questions about the battery (and therefore vehicle) cost. Toyota’s been out poo-pooing the future of plug-ins (though on this count, they remind me a lot of bean-counters from the Big 2.5 talking about hybrids in the 1990s, who were correct in saying hybrids wouldn’t be profitable in the near term, but who were wrong to reject hybrids nevertheless). And frankly, unless gas prices are close to $4 a gallon, there will be a limited market for these cars.
But in the meantime, GM’s on schedule, building a car that will use as much electricity as a refrigerator. Most impressively, it’s doing so in such a way really targeted to getting the average American driving an electric car, from the range, to the cues it programmed to mimic an internal combustion engine, to the ability to customize. And GM is doing so in a way that will make the most of both its immediate woes and that of the American economy.
GM may well declare bankruptcy tomorrow. But they’re also very much looking forward.
I’m being cruel in more ways than one. As this posts, I’m going to be in the air to NYC for the next several days. I’ll try to pop in and answer questions once I hit NYC, but I’ll be in and out all day.
Have a wonderful time, EW. The ceremony is tomorrow night? Do you get to make an acceptance speech? And there will be pics? Video?
“Baseball hot dogs apple pie and Chevrolet!” America’s protectionist mentality, or lets say corporate America’s inability to adapt and think forward has been our greatest flaw. Preoccupation with short term profit vs long term stability is America’s current failure. Everyday look at the waste of energy everyone pays for as cars sit in traffic going nowhere burning money at a absurd rate! If we where to equate and or compare transportation needs to the human body’s efficiencies, we would die and go extinct. Lets all continue to line the pockets of purveyors with our liberty???
“Needs instilled by corporate design, needs that where not real at all,… just conditioned minds??”
So it doesn’t fly after all, ah well ; ) Seriously though, when you get a chance can you let us know what the expected range and maximum speed of the Volt is? Is it intended just for urban driving or will the range be far enough for longer highway excursions?
The Volt is expected to run for 40 miles on a full charge, without using a single drop of gas. If you drive less than 40 miles every day, your energy cost will be about $0.50 per mile. After 40 miles, the gas engine kicks in to keep the Batteries charged, giving you a range of approx. 400 miles on a single tank of Gas.
It takes 6 hours to charge with a 110-volt outlet and 3 hours with a 220-volt outlet.
0-60 in less than 9 seconds and top speed of 100 mph. They will prolly have codes for those wanting more pep in their acceleration. These codes can be changed by technicians and will give quicker pick-up with reduced mileage as a result.
Thanks Petro!
I thought the Volt was all electric, I didn’t realize it’s a hybrid. Oops! Thanks for setting me straight.
So, umm, did you see it? : )
Yes !!! And will see it again in IMAX, sometime this week. My older girl is officially a Trekkie !
Since Mom’s on a Plane and Daddy is busy in Court, d’ya wanna turn this thread into a Trekkie Trash Talk one?*g*
Oh, I am sooo tempted ; ) All I want to ask though, is did Kirk’s green love interest bring a reminiscent smile to your face??? She didn’t dance, but as soon as I saw her, I thought of you ; )
LOL … I thought of the people on this blog that were a part of that conversation. I loved the little bits from the original show that they inserted into the movie – like Bones initial take of Spock – “I like him !”
Yep, it was the little stuff that made the whole movie : ) They kept the essence of the original series without excessive mimicry that would have ruined it. I just loved it : )
I loved original Spock being in the storyline …
Got to go to an appt. E-mail me if you want to chat more about teh movie … c42ch … h*o*t*m*a*i*l
One more thing, the Volt’s “engine” is technically not a hybrid since it acts as a generator to charge the batteries. A hybrid is by definition, able to run on more than one power source. In the case of the Prius, it alternates between battery and gas engine for power.
Ah, so does that mean the electric motor drives the car all the time and that the gas-engine only kicks in to charge the batteries in order to keep the electric motor running?
Yes !
If I buy gasoline at $4.00 a gallon and only get 16 mpg, my “energy cost” is only $0.25 a mile. My actual mpg is 25 and current cost for gas is $2.50, yielding an energy cost of $0.10 per mile. I’m missing the attractiveness of the Volt. Gas would have to get up to $12.50 a gallon for the energy cost to be equal.
I have to say that just on the face of it, plug-in charging has always seemed to be a red herring to me. Never mind the costs; it’s got to be slow, it’s tricky (try keeping the nicads for an electric R/C model airplane in good condition!), and it’s never there when you need it (distribution). Maybe we’re thinking in the wrong direction. Something onboard that runs constantly or nearly so: fuel cell?
Of course, you face the battery-condition problem one way or another — has this all been worked out during Prius/Volt development, or should we still be looking for an energy storage system aside from batteries?
FWIW, Alaska and other northern climates have already dealt with power distribution. I was in Fairbanks last year and every parking lot has outlets at each space. They need these so that people can plug in their engine block heaters so they can start their cars when it gets really really cold. Still, they figured out how to get things wired up, surely we can manage it in the lower 48.
Everything I have read suggests fuel cells are still a long way from being commercially available for car sized vehicles, plus, it’s not yet clear what non-fossil-fuel would be a viable hydrogen source for the fuel cell. So, while work continues in that direction, plug-in hybrids are an excellent solution for the near term.
This is a great point … it’s really not complicated to install outlets for Plug-ins.
Toyota is releasing Plug-ins for commercial testing in Europe and America. This usually means that they have been testing it for 3-5 years, the big issue was solved when they switched to non- exploding batteries.
I would expect a Plug-in rollout by 2012-13.
Prius will use Li-ion Batteries and Toyota warranties the Batteries for 10 years. That will include loss of charge.
A little smidgen of techie update: NiMH batteries are a clear step up (at least on the functional side) as there is no “charge memory”. I have designed many new devices with them and they appear to work 100% as advertised. I have NO idea of incoming or outgoing environmental concerns with the chemicals involved, but the old problems of nicads have been severely reduced.
Battery technology has always been the limiting factor as electric motor design and controller technology have been ready for decades. Li-ion and NiMH are the working upgrades while something called “super caps” have been looming for 20 years as the perfect solution to the car’s problems (much much faster charge/discharge).
Remember it took over 20 years to get the first laser working, and another 30 to make it economically feasible.
Light Emitting Diodes (LED) have been on the market for over 30 years, yet it took most of that time to make them consistent and reliable enough to use like we see them today. Now they are EVERYWHERE!
The Apollo 13 explosion was a fuel cell, yet how many of those do we see around?
No matter how great the need, technology can take time.
EDIT: Energy cost should be $0.05 per mile, not $0.50 as incorrectly noted.
GM claims that if you go over 40 miles per day … say that you drive all day, you should get 50 mpg. These figures will change once Consumers Reports and other Trade Mags test the Volt.
Ok. $0.05 is better than I get now even with lower priced gas. Thanks!
You’re ignoring the other expense part of owning an automobile – maintenance expenses, which will be substantially lower in a Volt or EV.
Aaaah. _That_ makes more sense.
Once you’re over 40 miles, then you’re driving a hybrid. Top speed is 100+, I think. I got it up to 50 or something without really trying.
The range is something approaching 300 miles if I am reading the information correctly. This is because the car runs TOTALLY off an electric motor. The gas engine in the vehicle is only for charging the battery to extend the range. The first forty to sixty miles are totally off electric battery. After that, the engine kicks in to recharge.
This is the way to do electric cars IMHO.
Enjoy.
O/T for bmaz — It looks like it’s gonna be Sotomayer. I know you mentioned that you didn’t like her, when you get a chance would you remind me why (I know, I should remember, but I don’t). At the moment, I am relieved it isn’t Kagan, but you are welcome to convince me that relief is unwarranted ; )
“And frankly, unless gas prices are close to $4 a gallon, there will be a limited market for these cars.”
True…..but one could also say that unless the U.S. finds its way to a hefty tax that gets the price to that level (both as a means for a social hedge to stabilize SR prices and to allow the price system to reflect actual costs), the U.S. reveals that it is approaching a failed state, unable to deal with public goods.
For what the Chinese are offering see Steve Clemon’s TWN
Shenzhen Surprise: China’s Toyota-Like Strategic Opportunity in US Market
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..se_in_she/
Thanks erichwwk.
Impressive specs (From Treehugger)
I’ve been holding out on buying even hybrid technology until I could find a car with capabilities like this.
I commute just under 80 mi round trip per day. Can’t move closer to work – I owe more than my house is worth.
My biggest fear of the plug-ins are the days I sit in a traffic jam with the A/C blowing or those long, slow drives during brutal Midwest snow storms. Could the battery power survive those conditions, I wonder.
This car looks awesome, good specs, and the price is right.
EW – Congrats on the Hillman, again!
Have a great time in NYC! Best Blues Bar in the World – Terra Blues – 141-and-a-half Bleecher, in the Village.
OT – Well written article on Happiness.
Thanks ! I’d love to meet Simon Critchley some day and have an amicable chat about the central view of that article and Rousseau’s quote.
I’ve said it before and will say it again, I think that Toyota’s attempt to poo-poo Plug-ins is a head fake. They did something very similar when the Prius was launched and augmented that head fake by releasing 5 (now 6) SUVs in the Toyota lineup and 3 SUVs in the Lexus lineup and look where we are today.
The Toyota Prius has 80,000 pre-orders and they expect to sell 400,000 worldwide in 2010. Actually, the car is being released now, so that’s 400,000 units sold in 8 months, in a global recession/depression. To see what is in store for hybrids/green cars, you have only to look at the latest Prius ad … Linky
since you mentioned toyota’s stratagizin, I have a question, and I’d really like to hear your opinion
have you seen Volkwagen’s commercials lately, where they have a talking “Bug” interviewing people and making sales pitches ???
they have a recently aired version where the “Bug” is poking fun at hybrids
I get kinda deep in the weeds here, but as I see it
hitler’s “people’s car” is criticizing the hybrid movement for a lack of horsepower, which is a point used to denigrate the hybrid movement. Those who would denigrate the hybrid movement do so mostly in support of the “petroleum Lobby” (whatever the hell you call it) So the “bug” supports the oil dominated economy over green energy
that’s kinda ironic when you consider what hitler was really trying to do
here’s a hint, hitler’s final offensive attack was directed toward Baku, not Moscow
me thinks the ghost of hitler still speaks to us
and I think VW misses this point entirely
does anybody else see it that way ???
The VW Jetta Diesel TDI uses a 2.0-liter four-cyl engine to get 140 hp and an insane 236 lb.-ft. of torque. Best of all, it gets a combined 50 mpg and passes the highest emissions standard and as anyone can tell you, Diesel engines last for-evvah !
In terms of servicing, the VeeDub is simpler in technology so presumably, much cheaper to upkeep. Add a stick shift to that puppy and you could zip up any hill quicker than any hybrid …
I expect new Diesel engines to give hybrids a run for their money and of course, diesel-hybrids will one-up gas-hybrids as well because of their torque output.
Development is well under way for Bio-Diesel, which is non toxic. Combining Diesel engines – a tried and true technology, great acceleration and a green energy source could realistically trump the more expensive technologies for petroleum- alternatives.
There is a guy in Fridley Minnesota who is already up and running with bio-diesel. His raw material is part cooking oil from Restaurants, and part ag waste, and he has designed and built a portable refinary, meaning he can go county by county and convert the waste into diesel, and leave it in local tank farms. From what I can tell he views his initial customers as local transit systems, heavy equipment operators and the freight train system — and many farmers who use diesel farm machinery. No conversion of current diesel motors is necessary to use his fuel, and he can compete with current diesel prices.
Another effort that very much intrigues me is the use of Kelp to produce bio-diesel. The U of Minnesota Ag School has a project now up on a test bed at the Pig’s Eye Sewage Treatment Plant, that uses liquid sewage in which the Kelp is force grown, and then harvested. The process cleans the sewage water sufficently that it can be used for agricultural or industrial purposes, or — it is clean enough to put back in the Mississippi. The general idea is to attack two problems — sewage treatment and energy production in the same production cycle and so scale it that it would be economic for a community of perhaps 25-50,000 households. Apparently the Ag School is deep into some efforts to genetically engineer very fast growing Kelp.
What Petro said. The commercials are selling the TDI, which truly is an amazing powerplant. I could have had one, but noooo, I had to get the gas 2.0, even after my brother hipped me to the TDI.
Shorter VW: “We don’t need no steenking Hybrids, bitchez!”
OTOH:
Of course, his name starts with “Petro”. Coincidence? Maybe not…
LOL … I wish I had anything to do with the Oil/Petro business over the last 8 years. You prolly missed my comment about Bio-Diesel, which some friends tell me will be more economical and eco-friendly than Ethanol in short order … esp. if they bio-engineer quick growing crops as per Sara’s comment @ 70.
I’m a VW owner… we know all about diesel conversions and stuff like that.
I think the plant that Wired featured a while back was Sawgrass…
Quick question though … would you support Wave Technology if it could power your City but take away your fav Surfing spots ?
SASQ: No.
BBC had a long package about a week ago on plug-in’s and battery issues.
Apparently next year Denmark and Israel are in line to roll-out a nation wide recharging and battery exchange system — the company is led by a venture capitalist from Israel who has previously been deep into Silicon Valley, but in recent years has been into design of a franchiseable electric recharging system and battery exchange system. Battery exchanges in his system are done by robots. The business idea essentially is that the consumer would buy the car — without the power package, and then “subscribe” to the battery pack, with price based on usage. I’ll see if I can find something on the net in the Danish literature about the decision to deploy this system. Israel and Denmark are very similar in terms of distances for which one normally would use a car.
But I am sorry, NOTHING will get me to give up stick shift — nothing. There is just a huge driving advantage when you must drive on snow and ice about six months of the year in stick shift. Well — if global warming eliminates Minnesota Winters, I might consider, but I think that will be after my time. Most important, police records establish that the vast majority of those who steal or hijack cars do not know how to drive a car with a clutch, and since only about 3% of American Drivers of ordinary cars drive them, you have a built in insurance policy. So automatic transmission — NEVER.
Agree with you on the advantages of a Stick Shift in winter, to say nothing of pure driving pleasure by being connected to the car in a way that an automatic tranny forbids.
I think this is the thing you are looking for Sara. http://www.betterplace.com
They are constructing networks in Denmark and Israel (and I believe California soon). It is promising idea.
I don’t think most companies are working on the model you mention though. I know that the Th!nk out of Norway is contemplating it though (www.think.no)
“I think this is the thing you are looking for Sara. http://www.betterplace.com”
Yep, that is what the BBC was talking up with their long package. Thanks. Just watched the attached video of the battery change out, — less that two minutes with a robot doing the work. Who ever gassed up in two minutes?
For the Danes this makes lots of sense as with their installed wind turbine system now at 20% of Danish use, but all too much of it at night and other times when consumption is not at peek, setting up the recharging of battery packs so as to use that excess power from their grid makes lots of sense. The Out-of-service batteries become their “storage” system. Currently they are selling unused power at below production rates to Germany and E. Europe.
Now the BBC also put me on to another new technology. Apparently called Project Anaconda, it is described as a very simple, very cheap means of generating electricity, that will be deployed in the next two to four years. It involves a very large tank, about the size of a dirigible, with a turbine generator at one end, that is sunk to the seabed. Attached to it are long flexible appendiges — rather like the legs of an octupus — that will ride up and down with wave action, constantly driving pressurized water through the system. This drives the turbine. Of course it has to be cabled back to land so as to use the electric power, but current test bed efforts suggest one such turbine could product constant power for 30 thousand homes. Apparently it is much more efficient than the wind turbines currently in place, and there are vast places in the oceans on the continental shelf where it could be sited. It would also work in fast moving rivers, and where ocean currents would provide the constant wave action. (I immediately wondered whether it would work in the Great Lakes, something EW and I would find informative.) Likewise, I wondered whether the trailing legs would be a problem with shipping and recreational boating — such as off the E & W coasts. At any rate if you have a base of electric cars, and the grid to move the power around, this project matches up quite well with “Better Place”.
There was a big experimental project off the coast of Portugal that recently got shelved due to lack of funding, which used this idea. Linky
This is a great idea and I hope the project in Scotland stays afloat (no pun intended)
They had an article about this in the NYTimes. It is a great idea but the problem is that because you switch battery packs, the cars have to be the same. I guess you can have sheet metal differences, but they have to be essentially the same for the battery switch to work. This is a utopian, egalitarian idea which will have difficulty flying in the US where a car is very much a status indicator. Cars with idential configurations have many benefits including safety. You don’t get unfair collisions between an SUV and a compact, but we will have to change the way we see ourselves. That doesn’t seem all that likely for the immediate future.
Glad you’re with me, Sara. I actually felt guilty when I eliminated the Prius from consideration. At least I’ve got good company.
Up until I bought my Prius I only drove standard transmissions. It was hard to give up the stick, but I got over it ; )
By the way EW, I’m not knocking the 40 mile range, I was just curious. I had thought the Volt was all electric, my mistake.
Oh and Petro @48 , I agree that the compressed air car could be really interesting. Your link gave me a 404 error, did it point to the work being done in France?
Sorry, try this linky – Air-powered Car
The engineering was done in France. Tata Motors of India is producing the car, which is being tested for the past couple of years.
Short sighted thinking, Sara. Good look with that.
I had a stick shift in all of my cars up to the Prius — because in the Prius there is finally a transmission that is smarter and does a better job than me. Admittedly, it will never snow in Los Angeles.
The Prius, of course, doesn’t really have a transmission per se. There are no “gears” — it can vary the amount of torque applied to the wheels independently of the gas engine speed by programming the motor/generators. So there is no clutch, no transmission, none of the typical fussy drive train components.
I confess that it never occurred to me that electric cars would require a different kind of dealer/owner relationship — and that change doomed the EV1. Even the Prius, though, even as an absolutely revolutionary car, has significantly less maintenance costs than typical cars (even typical Toyotas)
I also found this fascinating and intriguing.
And one would assume it might also require a different relationship between dealers and customers?
My last visit to a Ford lot was early 1980s: the ’salesman’ assumed that a female buyer like myself would only want an automatic, and the only question he asked me was ‘what color I wanted’. FWIW, I’ve not stepped foot on a Ford lot since.
I haven’t been on a US lot, nor seriously considered a US car, in over 20 years because the men were insulting idiots, and since I didn’t want a Muscle Car, a clunky Reliant, or a badly engineered station wagon, I didn’t seem to be their segment of the market.
If Apple produced cars, I’d buy one sight unseen, based on years of great customer experiences. (FWIW, my household has easily spent the equivalent of a new vehicle on Apple products since 1987. And once our friends and co-workers saw our Apples and Macs — and later, our iPods — they started buying them. Then they bought iTunes like crazy. Then they bought other plug-ins. Because Apple backed their products with excellent customer support, information, one-on-one user education, and sales experiences.)
If GM works with Apple, that factor might get me onto a GM lot, provided that it’s not in floodplain.
I doubt that my comment has much value for this thread; however, this is the sanitized version of a far-too-long comment that really triggered some epiphanies for me about how much years of insulting, stupid conduct by US auto dealerships in my local area, combined with insulting attitudes toward women, have made the very notion of even looking at a US car quite an emotional obstacle for me.
When the European dealerships treat me well, offer me a ride or loaner car, don’t waste my time dickering over pricing and don’t overload the options… well, let’s just say that I hope the US dealerships and auto makers have spent some time at Apple Stores and at European dealerships taking some tips and pointers about customer service and how to build long term relationships.
Cause ‘engineering’ matters, but it’s not the whole enchilada by a longshot.
Maybe Rayne can talk me down… sigh…
rOTL, it’s the salesmen, not the car companies per se… One of my favorite car buying stories was when as a 20-something I bought an Acura Integra. After deciding that that was the car I wanted, I went to a couple of different dealerships to get the best price. At one dealership the salesman was a real jerk. I just turned around and walked out. At the other dealership, the salesman was a great guy, really helpful and pleasant to deal with, that’s where I bought the car. Many months later, I was back at the dealership for routine maintenance and I popped over to the sales department to say hello to the salesman I bought the car from. I had told him about the guy who was a jerk previously, and as we were chatting guess who strolls around the corner? He stopped in his tracks, looked right at me and said, “I remember you”. Then he kept on walking. The salesman I liked said, “that’s the guy?!?”. Yep. I was pleased as punch I made an impression ; )
Too funny. I’m driving my third Honda, and it’s now 11.5 years old; I’m going to have to give it up to the teenager within a year, so I’m already looking around for a new car. (I’m seriously considering a Honda Fit, although it doesn’t have real-time 4-wheel drive…)
Spouse drives a Chrysler, but Chrysler was his biggest customer; with the merger to Fiat, Chrysler will no longer be his biggest customer and he’s looking at different cars, too. In his case he’ll probably pick a GM vehicle since GM will probably take up the slack in terms of purchasing equipment from him, assuming my husband’s company survives the bankruptcies. (Don’t even ask about Ford; their purchasing habits are such that they are not an option in this household. Didn’t take TARP money, they’ll tell you, but they cannot say they haven’t screwed over Tier 1 through 3 suppliers.) I figure he’ll pull up in a Buick Enclave before the end of the year.
I can’t tell you that I’ve had good luck with Honda dealers; the second one was purchased from a guy who was a horse’s ass, and with whom I had to get nasty and tell him to take the offer or leave it as I walked towards the door. The third dealer was a peach, got me exactly what I wanted, but the dealer was bought by another company and their service has been declining steadily over the last 5 years. (I think they screwed me this past month on a repair to the tune of $235, but I can’t prove it.)
If I were going to give you any advice, it would be to:
– check Consumers Reports on history of repair for the models you’d like to consider;
– check online for any complaints about the dealers;
– check Edmunds.com, KBB.com (Kelley Blue Book) and Consumers Reports for pricing;
– have a firm price in mind before you go in, along with the options/model baseline you are willing to accept;
– do not name your price first – depending on which side of the deal you’re on, the person who names the price first sets the floor or the ceiling for negotiations. You should ALWAYS let them name price first and use that as the ceiling.
– you must be able to walk away from the negotiations. It works, both on the dealer you are working with, and the future dealer from which you may buy the car. Give yourself enough time for negotiations and be willing to see that time as investment in learning even if you don’t get a car out of the discussion.
Car dealers have known for years that women are key to their success:
If you are worried a male salesperson will pressure you, do not be afraid to call dealerships ahead of your arrival and asking if they have a female salesperson with whom you can work; get her name and ask for her when you arrive on the sales floor. Again, be prepared to walk away if the salesperson, male or female, doesn’t treat you right and if they don’t bend over backwards to get you what you want. In this market you should be in the catbird seat.
And no, you really don’t want Apple to design a car. Just ask the folks who got the first gen iPhones, or first gen Nano iPods. If a car did what these devices did, there’d be thousands and thousands of dead drivers.
If women buy and influence such a high percentage of new car buying, why the hell is there no place in the car for a woman driver’s purse (handbag)?
Other than the front passenger’s lap, under the driver’s feet (bad), or thrown on the back seat?
There must be women on the car design teams, these women must have significant others, they must have purses, and they must drive the cars with a front passenger sometimes…
Give it up. I did about 8 years ago, about 2 years after I retired. Who needs all that crap in a purse? I wear pants or jackets with pockets and am liberated without a purse AT LAST!
Thanks Rayne; I might still buy an Apple on the premise that they’d get it right after a tough beginning.
A few years back, I bought a Civic (new) in an effort to move to something with a smaller carbon footprint. I know that lots of people like them; I never could get used to it and ended up selling it. Too bad; it ran exceptionally well and was cheap to drive. But I sure did not feel safe in it. Lost money, but at least I tried it.
With respect to buying cars, I’ve come to rely on a finder service — they do the legwork and incorporate their fees into the purchase price.
At this point, however, a Vespa sounds good for local runs — if only to spite the oil lobby.
JamesJoyce (3) — so leave already, for one of those less protectionist countries which don’t have gas- or petrodiesel-powered vehicles idling at intersections. Leave for one of those countries which has no restrictions at all on competition, like maybe Somalia. Obviously you’ve not been paying attention to the issues of fuel cell and battery technology development enough to know that there have been actual technical restraints besides oligopolic forces. We’re also trading dependence on foreign oil for foreign lithium for batteries, and domestic/foreign coal for plug-ins; how’s that an improvement in the big picture?
erichwwk (6) — you’d be better off to listen to EW regarding the market for Chinese vehicles than to Steve Clemons. Clemons may have cred WRT China’s politics and foreign policy, but he’s not been a bright light WRT to Chinese auto production and marketing. As for Warren Buffet: why wouldn’t he buy into a company which is positioning itself to serve the largest underserved market in the world? His interest may have nothing at all to do with the American auto market.
As for $4.00/gal. gasoline, we are but one nasty supply chain disruption at any time from seeing that price again. The market will “improve” over the short- rather than long-term, even if such a disruption were only temporary, as drivers are not able to afford that much volatility in their spending habits.
Yep, the first test cars that ran Li-ion batteries for increased range and charging would burst into flames, which set the industry several years. You just never know how these things will work until you get out of R & D Labs and into real world simulation.
That’s why Toyota spiked its Lithium Cobalt battery development in 2007; this particular battery technology had a nasty habit of exploding or bursting into flames
And this in turn may be an additional reason for Toyota’s poo-pooing which EW cites. Toyota lost a lot of time and resources in development of cobalt-based technology and they are now having to play catch-up at a time when the rest of the automotive industry is highly focused on the same deliverable, and at a time when the attention of the entire car-buying market is gradually waking up to the economic realities of battery-powered vehicles.
As to gas prices: north of NYC, gas has gone from $1.95/gal or so to $2.52/gal in a couple of weeks, for no good reason that I can see (other than that the companies can get it) and with no sign of the slope of the $ vs. time curve diminishing. So $4.00/gal or thereabouts is easily within reach in this area.
About the codes that technicians could change to alter the car’s behavior: back in 1991 I tried to figure out how an electric motor worked and wound up “inventing” the gas/electric hybrid car just for fun. My paper prototype has lead-acid batteries for jolts of power and NiCd batteries for longer term draw. There would be a knob on the dash labelled “Anticipated conditions”, and one direction would draw more on the lead-acids for passing and hill-climbs, the other the nicads for sedate conditions. The motors were located in the wheel hubs, and drove the wheels by microprocessor-controlled actuation of electromagnets taking cues from position sensors in the hubs and wheels. Internal combustion engine running at constant speed on board for charging; constant speed, because an old SAAB shop manual had said that really the last thing you wanted an internal combustion engine to do was change speed away from its peak efficiency rpm. Lots of fun noodling around on paper. Always wanted to actually try to build such a motor.
Thanks for the clarifications. Won’t it be interesting to see how this all sorts out? I just hope good ideas come to the fore. (I hear that body fat has 100 times the energy storage density of a lead-acid battery. Now, with some enzymes and an electron transport chain pirated out of mitochondria, maybe something can be done with all that fat from hamburgers … )
Imagine my surprise that the Volt is a hybrid? I am sorry, didn’t realize they opted for another losing situation. I wonder why electricity so scares GM or any of the US makers. I have driven an all electric and apart from adding a cassette player under the hood and a small speaker that has a continuous loop of the sound from a Model T, why would anyone continue to rely on gas? I can understand the distance of service for commuters, and in places like So. California, people commute 60 or more miles one way. But 60 miles is within current technology for electric cars to recharge prior to driving the return trip.
I suspect we will have to wait for the people that don’t intend to combine gasoline with the spark.
I’ve got a 75 mile commute one-way, electric-only won’t get me there and back again.
And then of course there are people in rural areas that may not commute daily, but expect to be able to drive hundreds of miles to visit friends and family scattered around. You are not going to buy a car that can’t get you where you need to go.
Hybrids or as Petro points out, not-really-hybrids such as the Volt are the only viable option for the near term.
agree phred; but one of our family’s 2 cars, with the chicken firmly in the pot, can suffice as an electric and replace the old clunk. The EV’s of today can do from 30 to 70 miles on a single charge, but of course, are not truly street worthy. The car makers with “teh monopoly” have made sure they can’t get anything more than a motorcycle permit for them. My local EV dealer just went under after being one of the longest lived in the country. He told me that he had numerous offers from makers to sell their product. He only sold 3 brands however. Because only 3 of the appx 10 currently available even work. Try it, email or contact an EV producer. If they sell the vehicle direct, beware. If they sell via a dealer network, they might be able to back up their claims.
That’s what you get for electing a Democrat as POTUS for 8 out of 28 years. Gore as Veep got the Big 3 to develop mid size sedans with 80 mpg and they were really close but as soon as Bush44 came in, he scrapped the program.
Does anyone think GM & Chrysler would be filing Chapter 11 if this program had continued to fruition ?
Cripes … that should be Bush43
Hybrids, near- Hybrids like the Volt and Plug- ins are the most realistic near term options. When Batteries are proven to give 400- 600 miles per charge, then we will see a mainstream rollout of EVs.
As a commenter above noted, no one wants to be stuck in a traffic jam with the a/c running and run out of power.
GM picked the 40 mile range bc it would suit 75% of the US market.
and a true electric has no tranny. It responds to the electrical current provided. If they put a 4 wheel AWD setup, it is as easy as a one wheel no traction, or a 2 wheel positraction. We may have to get used to our vehicles looking different, so our existing auto makers will die out. They believe that to sell a car it has to look real neato. I am surprised no one can get past that point when it comes to our being able to breathe the rotten air that comes from another million gas breathers?
I like adding the engine to the braking part. Idiocy. Free standing breaks that are not involved with the power train are a more likely to work for one, (they have been making these for decades) and Far more likely to be inexpensive and easily serviced. Insanity in Detroit, or a collusion with the Opeccars?
I am also keeping an eye on the development of cars that run on air compressors. Like the current EVs, these will be small and useful for city driving. “Car that runs on air” Linky
Does anyone know if the plug-in connection uses the same physical connector as the ones for the EV-1?
There are still a number of plug-in charging stations around LA (at the convention center for example). Last time I looked the electricity was free, although that will quickly change if the Volt catches on.
Just wondering if those few stations will need retrofitting, or if they kept the same connector.
(I still like the inductive pickups buried in the pavement so you can recharge while driving.)
a belated congrats to you, ew; you more than deserve it! and hope you enjoyed the festivities.
as for the car stuff, i bought a prius back in 2002 when it was still quite novel. in fact, they practically gave it to me because it was the end of the year (good rule of thumb for buying a new car; dec. 27th, so they can clear their inventory), and it has been a gem.
i too had always driven a stick, and was hesitant to give that up. i too appreciate that feeling of being in control the power as needed, etc. i always felt driving an automatic was a bit like riding a horse with a saddle and someone else holding the reins.
however, when i considered the conceptual purpose of the prius design — expressly to optimize efficiency — it made sense. what helped me see this was to actually watch the mpg gauge as i was driving. this will come as no surprise, but gosh, when you go up a steep incline the mpg just plummets, and when you try to fling yourself into speeding traffic on the freeway, it does the same.
so i reasoned that the ’slow responsiveness’ was not so much a human override as a reality adjustment. when i put it in terms of horse power, i know you simply cannot expect a horse to bolt from zero to 50 in a heartbeat, nor can you expect it to maintain 50 up a hill. in efficiency terms, then, expecting the kind of responsiveness we get with the combustion engine is not reasonable. i simply adjusted my driving style to accommodate the limitations of the vehicle’s capacity, which is what we do with any car we drive, even if we drive a ferrari (there is such a thing as being too responsive).
the result is i get around 50 mpg on average, give or take, and i drive more responsibly. sure, i miss the control feel of the stick, but i am no longer so concerned about controlling the beast as i am my impact on the environment (the prius is a Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle) and its resources.
Marcy, if GM will allow bmaz and me to test drive a Volt – mule or otherwise – I promise to be good !
*crosses fingers behind back*
maybe they just need to add a sound track
so why not make it SOUND like a combustion engine
how hard could it be ???
ROOOOOOOM, ROOOOOOOOM, SKREEEEEEEEETCH
Heh. I’m imagining the Big Wheel my little brother had way back in the day; he inserted the toy key and it made a VRRROOOOOMM!!! noise, and then a roar as he rode it down the sidewalk.
i for one would love a button in my Prius that gives a little “beep beep” sound to alert pedestrians walking down my narrow street that i’m right behind them. the regular horn is too loud.
for now i have to resort to “analog”: roll down the window and say “excuse me”.
I think I’d set mine to sound like an electric-powered ice cream truck! He he
I have one of the very earliest Priuses in San Diego, and got it CHEAP back then, because nobody knew how to sell them. I’ve had seven trouble-free, ultra-dependable years with my little hybrid, and I have to say something to many people here:
IT’S NOT LIKE YOUR CAR. GET USED TO THE NEW.
People here talking about adding “Vrooom” sounds to make it sound more like a real car. Or adding a fake-o “shift” effect to the continuously-variable transmission just so that Grandma won’t feel too weird when it’s not what she’s used to.
It’s new. Adapt with the times. As of this date, no Prius anywhere on earth has ever had its transmission repaired, because they don’t break down. There are only seven moving parts, versus over 300 in a typical automatic transmission. No, it’s not a manual transmission – Continuously-variable transmissions are far better for efficiency (they can cover a much wider range of ratios), which is why they are being used in the most efficient cars. A manual transmission won’t make your hybrid perkier… Just jerkier.
I’ve even see people make fun elsewhere of clear taillights as a “fad” that was sure to go away. Taillight lenses were red because they couldn’t make L.E.D’s that would light up red naturally, yet. Now they do, so maybe we should quit wishing for buggy-whip holders, too.
So, for all of you stuck-in-the-mud anti-hybrid people, here’s the final word. One of my clients got a 2005 Prius on my recommendation. 142,000 miles later, she has had to pay for standard oil/filter maintenance and ONE new set of tires. No other expenses, and she averages 48 MPG. The batteries (in California) have a ten-year warranty. The emissions system warrantee lasts for for fifteen years. I fill mine once every three weeks with the cheapest gas I can find, and I just go and go and go.
When the plug-in hybrids come out, we plan to get one, and use the solar cells on our roof to help cover the “fuel” expenses. I’m keeping an open mind!
round two, ding:
tell the dealers to go fuck themselves if they don’t want to sell the volt
hey, car dealership guy, YOU EVER HEARD OF TEH INNERTOOBZ, ASSHOLE ???
NEXT
the big picture, continued
I’m not sure I know what “holistic” means
but I get the idea that you’re thinking of a partnership between GM and our governments (plural) to establish a system of “Plug-In” sites in urban areas
I don’t see why that would be a big problem. we’ve developed a computerized-credit card money system that can pay for everything from Pizza to medical care
why couldn’t we add the charging costs to the parking fees. We pay to park in most urban core areas. Malls and suburban areas are different, but offering “charging” and “non-charging parking” wouldn’t be hard
we* pay for gas with a credit card, why couldn’t we pay for electricity in the same way ???
(*well, not me, I don’t drive or use credit cards. but some of you guys do.)
and there is a part of the “Big Picture” that you didn’t address; the changing of the consumer in the past 40 years.
you are unique in your devotion to acceleration
the youth of today might have been conceived in the back seat of a GTO, but they have never driven one. Most of the true “Muscle Cars” are gone now. Today’s “Hopped Up Sentra” just doesn’t compete with the raw horsepower of Detroit’s heyday. Few people remember what true acceleration is all about
that, combined with the social awareness of today’s youth, is gonna allow this process to go on in the face of conservative hissy fits galore
just to reminisce:
Mustangs, Torinos, Taladegas (rare an fast) Shelby Cobra (faster an rarer), The Camaro (or Firebird, same diff) GTO, Corvette, the 442, Dodge Charger (with factory Hemis), the Galaxy 500 (had one with a “four speed” that would spin circles all day long) Detroit don’t make em like that anymore
a three comment post, an a topic I could add real commentary, COOL, guess I’ll read the comments now
The VW ad is interesting, and the ad for the new Prius (linked @10) raises a topic that doesn’t seem to have gotten much play in all of the auto industry discussion: marketing.
Both ads/campaigns–and one might as well throw in the campaign for the new Honda Insight as well–are trying to do something different. It would be fascinating to break down what they’re trying to say/suggesting.
It seems as if one of Detroit’s biggest death spiral Catch-22s was its marketing, although I might be wrong about that, but I would love hear Marcy’s take on car marketing issues, as well as other opinions. A fortune was spent selling Americans the idea that they need big cars and trucks, using all sorts of crazy glossy images of canyons and showing their strength.
Is the marketing going to change now?
Zhiv !
Are you the same Zhiv from the days of the Libby trial, who told us about your kid’s Bar Mitzvah ?
Same old zhiv.
http://zhiv.wordpress.com/2009…..y-wheeler/
Good to be back and remembered. Bar Mitzvah boy is thriving.
Luckiest Kid/Best Dad in town !
I’m planning a trip to Cali. later this year, hope to meet up with other Firepups and you.
yo petro
Hey Raven ! How goes it, my friend ?
Not too shabby, U?
BREAKING: Camaro Convertible Gets Launch Date … ohhh snap, I’d better find an Agent lickety split !
I have been driving a civic hybrid for 5 years and still love my car. I have an 80 mile round trip to work and it has been great. I was getting 44 mpg until I added a Thule rack and it is now down to 40. The civic is a different system that never runs completely on the electric motor but is an assist to the gas engine. This means it has more pick up than the regular civic (as my 20 year old daughter discovered to her delight ;-). I had a choice of stick shift or the automatic and bought the new automatic on the advice of an expert mechanic friend. Does anyone know if there is a plug-in conversion kit out there for the Civic like you can get for the Prius?
OT
Petreus spreads his cheeks and agrees with Obama. Alter sez he’s the best general since (I can’t remember the overblown comparison).
Alter sez Ds are not as whimpy on national defense than they used to be. Of course, he offered no evidence.
Heh. Rachel is gonna discuss how liberal Sotomayor is with Boxer. I can hardly wait. Not.
Stick shift lovers will never drive an electric car, I guess; a clutch to shift between a set of fixed gear ratios doesn’t make sense for an electric motor.
Also, I’m surprised that anyone would find the Prius underpowered while driving the hills in SF: at the speeds one drives in the city, when you hit the pedal you’ve got two engines pulling, so it isn’t underpowered in the least.
“Stick shift lovers will never drive an electric car, I guess; a clutch to shift between a set of fixed gear ratios doesn’t make sense for an electric motor.”
It isn’t so much a love of stick shift as it is the necessity of driving on snow and ice during six months of the year — and in temperatures well below zero on occassion.
What is missing in the discussion of electric cars is this reality. It is the combination of the pure physics that batteries die in low temperature with the particulars of the kind of snow and ice nature invents from day to day. Is it fluffy light snow over black ice today? — or is it heavy wet stuff that quickly reorganizes itself into icy ruts. To drive in it day to day you have to master road feel and control of your car — and lots of automatic transmissions just don’t allow for that. (and oh yea, add in 40-50 mph wind in the mix.)
Mancow (you can’t make that up) is on KO re waterboarding.
price? reliability? cost of repair? all bring to mind the question… is this my fathers oldsmobile?
hard to believe they were that close before the great meltdown. almost unbelievable in fact.
they can’t even get their former leader wagoner off the payroll (ahem, something about 20 million bucks), how pray tell, are they going to roll out a competitively priced volt?
a detroit area native and resident here and all I can say is I don’t know if the cat can change it’s stripes….
go wings
Boxer has a good feeling about Sotomayor. I’m so relieved.
While this may not be saying much, Sonia could hardly be as Conservative as the President that nominated her.
It’s not by definition a win, but its not Cass Sunstein.
And when the white-male-asshole contingent on the court rises up, she is unlikely to sit still for it.
The Repugs wanted somebody like Harriet on the Bench … someone less knowledgeable that Roberts & Co., so they can wring out an extra vote for their Masters.
Sonia represents the opposite of Myers, hence the pushback …
ding!ding!
you win the stuffed giraffe!
(((PETRO)))
Tenjewberrymuch ! *g*
{{{WDD}}}
Agree. And I don’t know much about the subject, so everything I type must be regarded as flakey, still, there might have been people I’d be happier with.
Sure, any of the dozens of actually ‘definable’ Liberal jurists who will never be nominated because the Left is spineless – she is probably not one of them.
But I will say this – she looks like an uncompromising ass-kicker to me. Let Alito, or better Justice Thomas throw down with her – I await a vibrant court. If we hadn’t had at least one messy, contentious bench, Brown would not be law today.
Bring on the chaos.
From your lips …
You will get at least one Liberal Judge … I feel that 2 more Supremes will retire over the next 3 years.
Um, but that puts conservative Obama in charge.
I don’t want Liberal justices – I want thinkers, not ideologues. Thinkers are possibly tougher to get than either partisan extreme.
I will take a Republican thinker over a Democratic doofus any day.
Well, I might want to know what kind of Republican… not the ‘Dick Cheney’ kind but more along the (sane) Chuck Hagel kind, for the sake of argument.
But I heartily concur — it’s the ability to think that matters, and then also to explain clearly what the issues were, and what the decision actually is so that something can actually be decided.
What I’d REALLY like, but don’t expect to see, is a Supreme Court that makes a few ‘non-decisions’ and signals to legislative bodies that they need to get beyond gridlock, stop posturing, figure out what the real issues are, and solve problems.
Yeah, I’m a dreamer…
But all this whining to the SCOTUS like we’re such a bunch of babies that we can’t work out disagreements in legislatures and councils and other arenas is really bad for this nation. I put it down to too damn much money among certain Vested Interests.
Where will you find a person who currently identifies as a Republican and is a thinker, newtonusr? William Millikin’s too old.
my idea for electric “fill up”
the station and the car will give a readout, how many cycles are left in the battery, how many hours of battery have been used
the battery can then be a cartridge swap, based on battery charge and depreciation due to cycles used
Eli is upstairs at the Mothership!
Psychic Sotomayor Strategy Scoop
Very well, thanks !
Are you watching the game ?
Plug-ins are great, if you have someplace to plug it in for the day, or for the night.
A lot of us don’t.
I like my (small and somewhat underpowered) Prius. (Its transmission works fine; it isn’t the cause of the lack of power.)
Back when I was about 11 I read a Science Fiction story I think was named ‘The Marching Morons’.
It described a society where automobiles provided lots of sound and visual effects to convince the drivers that they were going really fast but they were actually toodleing around at 30mph.
I’m sick of being sold cars about experience. I would be happy with a wimpy car for in the city that was sold as a wimpy car and happy to buy an mountain climbing off road car if that is what I did regularly.
As James May (of all people) said when he covered the test of the Civic fuel cell model out in California (talking to Leno on the way), the most significant thing about it was that it was… a Civic. It’s a more continuous transition, too: you put stuff in the tank, you drive it until the gauge says “fill up”, you fill up. The Volt is clearly more disruptive, but . The future’s going to look more disparate, from region to region: petrol, diesel, LPG, ethanol, hybrids, fully electric. Sort of a mirror of the early 1900s with different controls and layouts.
Reminds me of a somewhat sexist gag — an old one, as you’ll see from the punchline: a woman takes her car into the shop, says “I’m getting terrible mileage”, the mechanic opens the bonnet, sees nothing wrong. Checks the fuel line, no leaks. Then he notices that the choke is pulled out all the way. “You do know that’s just for starting the engine, right?” he says. “Really?” says the woman. “Where am I meant to hang my handbag when I’m driving?”
I have two problems with plug-in hybrids, and they apply equally to the Volt and Toyota’s plug-in Prius, which is well underway as I understand it.
1: Battery type. Lithium-Ion batteries are a terrible idea. Even if you can get the engineering down so they don’t explode (or more accurately, combust really fast), the size of the battery is an economic and environmental nightmare. There is quite simply not a lot of lithium production globally. Half of the world’s known lithium reserves are in the Bolivian highlands, in an area the locals do not want mined, and the Bolivian government is not keen on the idea either. Where will you get your lithium for these batteries? How will you avoid driving the cost of consumer electronics through the roof, since all of your laptops, cell phones and so forth also use lithium batteries?
That is, assuming plug-in hybrids ever take off. This criticism, as noted, applies to Toyota too, if they make a similar Prius, or to those A123 battery Priuses, one of which I got to see recently here in Madison (the power company was showing it off — not much trunk space left after they get through with it. I also found it interesting that the power company felt the need to bolt a fire extinguisher on a hook above the lithium battery )
2: Charging. What will you do for the millions of Americans who live in apartments, and don’t have garages of their own? How will they charge these hypothetical cars? As it stands, I own a Prius. In a few years we plan to replace our second car with another Prius, or perhaps another Toyota hybrid. If I was buying today, and they offered me a plug in package FOR FREE, I wouldn’t take it, as it would be of zero benefit. We live in Madison, actually a suburb called Fitchburg, which aggressively encourages underground parking structures in all new development, so we have parking underground. Great in winter. But… absolutely no place to charge a car. Not even a place to put an outlet to charge a car. You’d have to remodel the whole building, and since the entire building has access to the same shared space, how would you prevent people from stealing each other’s juice, assuming you *did* slap in charging stations? Who pays for the juice, and how?
Now take that problem and apply it to places where you don’t have dedicated parking at all, like big cities, or people who have to park aboveground in bad weather, or people whose cars don’t sit in a lot all day… yeah.
Reading my comment it took me a second to realize how strange it probably sounds talking about underground parking as if it’s the default. I haven’t lived in this town long enough to be like that, I have no excuse, but as an interesting bit of trivia, the Madison area is crazy for it.
The city has tons of parking garages, lots of employers do underground parking or largely-enclosed parking, some restaurants and grocery stores, even movie theatres. The thing is, given that you’re sheltered from the worst of the weather, it would be easier, not harder, to put in charging stations. In the ‘real world’ it’d be more difficult. (Madison Motto: 77 Square Miles Surrounded By Reality)
A car that runs on the same amount of juice as a fridge is great in theory, but how many people plug in their fridges…outside?
ecunin, that’s not true, it only has to use the same energy profile, for instance volts and wattage, that’s it.
just like your cassete decks, all are diffferant, once the energy profile is the same the only thing that has to be designed the same is the battery interface, that’s it
in addition, the energy profile doesn’t even have to be the same, their can always be a transformer to accomodate differances in energy profile, though that increases the cost of the car, it’s still hardly an obstacal
I was thinking of the physical battery. It has to fit the robot and it has to fit into the car. These externalities have to be the same. I think cassette decks are a good analogy. The cassettes are the same, but there are a variety of boxes of different sizes.
I think, though, we should try to understand why we need automobiles to be status symbols rather than just transportation. Why status?
again, not really, the battery cartridge can be modular and reshapable by virtue of it’s own modular configuration
for instance one battery could be an L shapped, another could be U shaped, both battery’s modules could be unplugged and replugged to suit that particular compartment
but even if yu are correct because of the need for a robot to exhange batteries, most gas tanks have the same configuration so I see no reason a battery couldn’t as well
I remember during the carter embargo, there was a really big deal being made about an “electricity engine”, which converted some kind of slush to electricity
there was a mule and it was broadcast for about a month, then disapeared
anyone remember that?
I notice that nobody is talking about the Ford Fusion hybrid, a team of ford engineers managed to drive over 1400 miles on a tank of gas with the 2010 Fusion and averaged over 81 mpg, but, I guess it is more cosmopolitan to talk about the the toyota and honda hybrids that are about half the size of the Fusion. The only thing I have against the Fusion is that it is built in Mexico..
We have had many posts about Hybrids and the Fusion was discussed then. This post was a much anticipated one about Marcy’s experience in driving a Volt, something many of us car lovers are excited about.
The results that engineers get are often at odds with real world driving, and that includes all manufacturers. Fusion Hybrid’s mileage is listed at 41 mpg city and 36 mpg highway, according to EPA. The guys at Jalopnik got 43.8 mpg in their test drive. Sorry, the link feature is not working or I would have linked to the article.
Sara, LiFePO4 batteries will work just fine in a Minnesota winter. And electric motors will allow computer control of power delivery for traction. You might not like it but it will do a better job than any human who will ever live. Heating the car with batteries is more of a concern; a gas heater is probably the only satisfactory method.
Good point on inefficiency of using battery power to generate heat. I wonder if there might be some way to capture the heat off other components for use in the cabin when conditions necessitate?
Enjoy.
When it’s -35°C, nothing on a car gets warm except the engine; the heat loss from metal parts is just too great. But people have been driving air-cooled Volkswagens with gas heaters for ages, so that solution is workable (and the Volt will have gas on board).
BTW, I don’t think the Volt will be able to recharge its batteries from the engine; that will run a generator that directly feeds the electric motors. The batteries will only be recharged through an external plug.
According to Bob Lutz, the gas engine drives the generator which recharges the Batteries. “It will use a lithium-ion battery with a gasoline-powered, range-extending engine that drives a generator to provide electric power when you drive beyond the 40-mile battery range.” – chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/fuel/electric.do
Sorry but I’ve been unable to add Links all day. If you hear differently, please correct me.
The quote doesn’t support the notion that the engine would recharge the batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are pretty limited in the current that they can supply (and that can be dumped into them). Besides wasting charge cycles and being inefficient, the engineering would be more difficult and no benefits would accrue. Naively, the gas engine could run at a single speed and max out on efficiency, but in the long run the cost of burning your batteries will be far higher than the added cost of just throttling the engine to meet demand (with the generator connected directly to the electric motor).
Electric motors and their controllers still generate heat–they have to, because no motor is 100% efficient. Whether it is enough to heat a car on its own, I don’t know.
In very cold weather, you need to put about 3 kW of heat into a typical car to get the cabin up to a reasonable temperature (it will still take about 20 minutes to warm up, even with that much heat being pumped into it). With the clever use of heated seats and steering wheel, combined with radiant panels in the ceiling, that could be cut way down, but I don’t know how little one could get away with.
Even your brake rotors barely get warm in -35C. If the motor was well insulated then you could get a bit of heat from it, and the controller heat would be easy to capture, but it still wouldn’t be enough for a person to notice.
“I prefer small, efficient cars–with manual transmissions, so I can get what power they have when I need it … and the Prius, with its underpowered engine, wasn’t able to do that”
Madame Robspierre and I own two Priuses, a 2002 (the first body style, now with 70+K miles) and a current model. I am astonished to hear people say that these cars are underpowered. People who drive them almost never feel that way. The idea that a Prius is is somehow inefficient compared to a small, internal combustion-only car is a new one to me as well.
First, we live in Colorado and drive on 75-mph Interstates, in stop-and-go traffic, and on steep mountain roads, in temperatures ranging from -20 to 105 Fahrenheit. So one notices power.
Most cars never make use of their maximum power except when accelerating. Cruising, even at top speed, takes relatively little by comparison. In practical terms, acceleration matters most when merging/passing on a freeway. But it is most noticeable when pulling away from stoplights.
Priuses have excellent acceleration in normal driving. They will not set any quarter-mile records at your local drag strip due to the weight of the electrics. However, nothing but motorcycles and the occasional Porsche with a skillful driver can beat a Prius from a stop light to about 50-100 yards.
Why? Electric motors have 100% of their power and torque available at 0 RPM. So, even though the Prius has only about 40-hp available from the electric motor, that is still a lot compared to the 0 hp available to anything else. This means that, when an obnoxious middle-age-crisis sufferer in a Corvette tailgated Madame long enough to tick her off (hard to do) and then, at a stoplight, pulled around in the turn lane intending to outdrag her, he was sorely disappointed, despite his engine-revving. Madame exited the intersection before his fat Goodyear Gatorback tires had even started to turn. He was so surprised that he stalled in the middle of the intersection.
Such childishness aside, the responsiveness of hybrids like the Prius and, I expect, of electric vehicles generally is such as to make them seem vastly more powerful than they are, at least in normal driving. Moreover, those of us that drive between high and really high altitudes (5000-10000 ft), the hybrid suffers little power loss–nothing is better for passing on a steep mountain grade.
The efficiency of a Prius is unparalleled–hence the 50+ mpg. You get power when you need it without any shifting. The transmission is infinitely variable, so it can match demand to output far more efficiently than 4-5 fixed gears can, and it is subtler and quicker to respond than a human driver could be. Moreover, it doesn’t waste fuel idling. At stop lights, the internal combustion engine shuts down. On the road, any power that is not actually needed to move the car is used to charge the battery. Coasting and braking also charge the battery, so much of the energy that a normal car wastes on climbing hills and slowing down is saved.
The Prius’ internal combustion engine is indeed lower powered than similarly-sized Toyota engines. But this is an apples-and-oranges comparison. The Prius engine uses the Atkinson cycle rather than the Otto cycle used by almost all other gasoline engines. The Atkinson cycle produces less power per volume of air ingested but extracts more useful work from the fuel burned (less energy goes out the exhaust as waste heat).
The only downside I have seen relative to an IC-only car is in deep snow: you can’t rock your way out because reverse is electric only and allows no wheelspin. Still, I’ve only been stuck once, and I had a shovel.
I bought our first Prius at Madame’s urging, as a modest stick in the eye for Saudi Arabia following the 9/11 attacks. But I have stuck sith them because, considered as cars, they are by far the nicest, most practical, most reliable, most comfortable, best-performing machines that I have ever owned.