The Context of the Torture Index

I wanted to return to the torture index released to ACLU the other day to comment on what the CIA claims to have in terms of records.

First, remember what this index is. The April 21 order required CIA to turn over two things. 

  • Records "relating to the content" of the torture tapes "from the entire period of the tapes that were destroyed"
  • "Documents relating to the destruction of the tapes, which describe the persons and reasons behind their destruction"

The second bullet (referred to as Paragraph 4 material) is the stuff discussed in the recent John Durham squabble. The first bullet (referred to as Paragraph 3 material) is the stuff we got the other daya and which I’ll discuss in this post.

The May 7 order summarizes how CIA and ACLU agreed CIA would treat those records that described the content of the torture tapes.

In response to earlier orders, the CIA originally identified appropximately 3,000 documents potentially responsive to paragraph 3 of the Court’s April 20, 2009 Order. Those 3,000 records included "contemporaneous records," which were created at the time of the interrogations or at the time the videotapes were viewed, "intelligence records," which do not describe the interrogations but contain raw intelligence collected from the interrogations, "derivative records," which summarize information contained within the contemporaneous records, and documents related to the location of the interrogations that, upon further review by the CIA, were determined not to relate to the interrogations or to the destroyed videotapes.

With respect to paragraph 3 of the April 20, 2009 Order, the parties jointly propose that the Government address the contemporaneous and derivative records, but not the intelligence records or the other records that ultimately proved to be unrelated to the interrogations or the videotapes. With respect to the contemporaneous and derivitive records, the parties jointly propose the following: 

  • May 18, 2009: The Government will produce a list of all contemporaneous records and all derivative records. The list will, to the greatest extent permissible on the public record (i.e., the list will not include classified information or information otherwise protected by statute), identify the date, sender, recipient, type, and subject matter for each record;

So the stuff we got the other day is one of three things:

  • Documentation made contemporaneously with interrogations that were videotaped
  • Documentation made contemporaneously to the viewing of the videotapes
  • Derivative records that summarize the contents of the contemporaneous record

The dates on the list, then, tell us certain things: the dates during which interrogations were videotaped, the dates when the videotapes were viewed, and the dates when people at the CIA were summarizing what went on in those interrogations.

The contemporaneous interrogation materials

This appears to explain the timing of the multiple times a day cables which start on April 13, 2002, and continue to December 4, 2002. Those are the dates, presumably, when the CIA was videotaping either Abu Zubaydah’s and/or al-Nashiri’s interrogation. As MadDog pointed out the other day, almost all of the communication during this period consists of cables from the Field to HQ, with the exception of two handwritten log books; cables from the Field to the Field on April 23, May 12, May 21, May 31 to June 3, October 25, and November 21; a photograph dated October 11, 2002; a cable from HQ to the Field on May 28; and a memo from HQ to the Field on November 30. This memo is notably classified only Secret, while everything else is classified Top Secret.  Given the timing, I wonder whether the memo is the order from HQ to stop videotaping interrogations, given that the tapings apparently stopped five days later. Also, I wonder whether the photo recorded al-Nashiri, whom the CIA got sometime in that month, after he was tortured in Dubai for a time.

The rest of the dated material appears to fall into two timeframes: the first half of 2003, which almost certainly relates to the CIA IG investigation, and late 2007 to early 2008, which may relate to the exposure of the torture tape destruction.

The IG Report materials

These materials consist of:

January 9, 2003: Memo for the record
February 3, 2003: Interview report
February 10, 2003: Interview report
May 9, 2003: Notes
May 22, 2003: Memo for the record
June 17, 2003: Handwritten notes
June 18, 2003: Email
June 18, 2003: Interview report

By putting these dates together with the details in the IG declaration submitted in this case, we can flesh them out a little.

The declaration explains that the IG review was initiated in January 2003.

In January 2003, OIG initiated a special review of the CIA terrorist detention and interrogation program.

So that memo for the record dated January 9 might be the initiation of the review. If so, the initiation itself must summarize the contents of the contemporaneous record (or else the document wouldn’t be responsive to this FOIA). 

The IG review team reviewed the videotapes themselves in May, 2003.

OIG reviewed the videotapes at an overseas covert NCS facility in May 2003.

So those notes from May 9, 2003, are almost certainly notes taken while viewing the videotapes. Note the memo for the record written a few weeks later.

Other than that, the materials tied to the IG report appear to be tied to three interviews, reports of which were written on February 3, February 10, and June 18. Curiously, the CIA did not list the IG report itself (though I wonder whether some of the undated timelines and outlines are related to the IG report). I think that’s because the CIA already turned over the report itself, though I’m going to try to double check that. 

The torture tape scandal materials

While I’m less sure about the most recent materials, they appear to be connected with events surrounding the revelation that the torture tapes were destroyed. These materials–along with some relevant notes–are:

December 3, 2007: 5-page email
December 5, 2007: NYT informs CIA they’re going to publish story on tapes
December 6, 2007: Michael Hayden writes letter to CIA personnel explaining matter; NYT breaks story of torture tape destruction
December 8, 2007: DOJ opens preliminary investigation into torture tape destruction
December 10, 2007: 5-page email w/memo
December 10, 2007: 2-page email
December 11, 2007: Hayden briefs SSCI on the torture tape destruction, discussed the techniques used on Abu Zubaydah, including waterboarding
December 12, 2008: ACLU moves to hold CIA in contempt for destroying torture tapes
December 28, 2007: 7-page interview report
January 2, 2008: Mukasey announces appointment of John Durham to conduct investigation into torture tape destruction
January 7, 2008: 13-page email; first hearing on ACLU’s contempt motion
January 10, 2008: CIA submits motion opposing contempt

Given the other events that occurred around this time, most of these documents make sense. There was correspondence leading up to Hayden’s SSCI briefing, in which he told the Committee what techniques had been used with Abu Zubaydah. There was an interview, which may well relate to the preliminary investigation (and Mukasey’s decision, days later, to start a formal investigation). There’s the 13-page email that might either relate to the investigation or ACLU’s contempt motion.

But then there’s the 5-page email from December 3, before the NYT article. Was this related to the article? Did CIA know it might be coming? I have no idea–but it is interesting that that email precedes all the other events related to this scandal.

The unknown timelines and notes

Which leaves a bunch of undated timelines and notes, of which only one is even described as to its author (HQ). 

Someone, at some point, was trying to put together a timeline of what was done to Abu Zubaydah and/or al-Nashiri. The timeline 10 pages long, and the longest version of the notes/outline is 29 pages long.

You’d think the CIA would at least know generally who wrote these materials, and when. But it claims not to. My guess is it’s work product on the IG report done sometime after viewing the tapes and before the actual report–which included descriptions of the torture used–was published. But that’s just a wildarsed guess.

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56 replies
  1. Mary says:

    [OT – but May was a bad month for Libyan prisoners. At about the same time that the US embarassment, al-Libi, passes on in his Libyan prison, the Libyan embarassment, Al-Jahmi, ends up in an coma and is then shipped off to Jordan where he has now died.

    Imagine, two major embarassments, and the stars claim the both in May. Almost like Spring sacrifices to the gods.

  2. behindthefall says:

    You’d think the CIA would at least know generally who wrote these materials, and when. But it claims not to.

    a. That’s no way to run a railroad, far less an intel shop.

    b. If one hand doesn’t know what the other hand did, — why? Is this the “Team B Effect”? Is this suggestive of a separate and insulated stovepipe within the CIA?

  3. rxbusa says:

    The dates on the list, then, tell us certain things: the dates during which interrogations were videotaped, the dates when the videotapes were either viewed [EW—is something missing here?], and the dates when people at the CIA were summarizing what went on in those interrogations.

  4. bobschacht says:

    EW,
    Thanks for another detailed analysis that will help form the foundation for future analysis! Building blocks like this can be more important than first appears.

    BTW, you wrote:

    the dates when the videotapes were either viewed, and the dates when people at the CIA were summarizing what went on in those interrogations.

    The “either” suggests an “or”, which I failed to find. Is there something missing?

    Thanks,
    Bob in HI

  5. JohnLopresti says:

    There were events in court papers with respect to al Marri and Moussaoui, both of whose cases involved video, which also seem to have no corresponding documents on the same or nearby dates among materials in the current list, though the list is worse than vague in its currently published format and content.

  6. Rayne says:

    Email preceding article in NYT could be documentation regarding any inquiries made by journo(s) doing research for the article. Could also have been documentation of response to a request for comment by NYT.

    The article’s original dateline is Washington DC on Thursday, Dec. 6, with date of publication Friday Dec. 7 (must have been the hardcopy date); it’s unclear without more research whether this is end of day, although I suspect it is as it says that Gen. Hayden issued a statement the same day to CIA staff about the tapes’ status. (A correction appends the article and appears to have been published on Saturday, Dec. 8.)

    The comments Mazzetti/Shane/Lichtblau may have requested and received from Hayden, CIA spokesperson Paul Gimigliano, Rep. Hoekstra’s spokesperson Jamel Ware and unnamed staffers for Porter Goss do not have dates attached to them; any of them might have tripped an email summary which may have forced Hayden’s missive to CIA staff on Dec. 6.

    Are all of Hayden’s communications related to the tapes accounted for, I wonder? Seems like there might have been other communications to/from him in advance of the Dec. 6 missive to staff.

    • emptywheel says:

      Oh, I agree that it’s likely related to the NYT inquiry.

      But the email has to by definition include a description of the torture shown on the videos. So “heads up, the NYT is about to break a story on the destruction of the torture tapes” would be responsive to paragraph 4, but not paragraph 3. So this email by definition must include something like, “the tapes show AZ being beaten and show al-Nashiri needing to be resucitated after waterboarding” might count.

      Also, I think I’m wrong on the photo, for the same reason. It probably couldn’t just show al-Nashiri after being beaten in Dubai, bc that wouldn’t be about the torture done that was videotaped. So it may well document something that happened to him or AZ.

  7. alabama says:

    “either the dates when the videotapes were viewed, or the dates when people at the CIA were summarizing…”?

  8. MadDog says:

    Many thanks EW for doing the “dot connection” on these communications.

    Your logical conclusions wrt the fact that these communications pertain “only” to the interrogation videotaping and its destruction is far more probable than my thoughts originally that they were more generalized communications about AZ’s interrogation history.

    I too, have been pondering the log the last couple days. And with your excellent deductions, a few more thoughts come to mind:

    1) Who came up with the idea of videotaping the AZ interrogation? Was it the contractor James Mitchell? Was it the CIA? In either case, one would think that there should be some paper/communication trail on it.

    Assuming that it was an idea that occurred onsite (not back at HQTRS), when was HQTRS told about it? Did HQTRS approve, and if so, in writing, and if so, where is this written communication?

    The first HQTRS to FIELD communication occurs at 5/28/02 (4 page CABLE from HQTRS to FIELD), almost one and 1/2 months after the start of AZ’s interrogation.

    Assuming that the idea to videotape occurred at HQTRS, when was this conveyed to the FIELD? And how? Again, given that the first HQTRS to FIELD communication occurs at 5/28/02 (4 page CABLE from HQTRS to FIELD), was a HQTRS-originated idea about videotaping AZ’s interrogation communicated to the FIELD in writing or by phone?

    If it was in writing, where is it?

    Regardless of which entity came up with the idea of videotaping AZ’s interrogation, one could surmise that there is a high probability that it was the subject of discussion at HQTRS. Where is the documentary identification of HQTRS to HQTRS communication on this subject?

    Did that HQTRS communication only consist of verbal discussions? That seems unlikely, but possible. I would think that there would have been at least some written HQTRS to HQTRS communications about this.

    Was the idea of videotaping AZ’s interrogation “vetted” by CIA attorneys, either or both by the CTC’s lawyers or OGC lawyers? If so, would attorney work product rules prevent its documentation to the court?

    2) Also, we know that the fact of the videotaping of the AZ interrogation was discussed both at the White House, and later with Congress. Where are the written materials on these communications?

    3) Similarly, I think you’ve nailed it wrt 2007 communications as being directly related to the videotape destruction!

    With that in mind, where are the documents identified wrt CIA DDO (or with the name change, head of NCS) Jose A. Rodriguez’s videotape destruction “approval” by I believe CTC (or NCS) attorneys? Or is that too considered non-discoverable via attorney work product rules?

    4) Your surmise that the “identity unknown” materials as being the province of the CIA’s OIG is a very good SWAG! If it is not from the OIG, then where are the OIG written materials? Are they somehow covered under attorney work product rules? I would think not, but that still is an unknown to me.

    I’ve got a family picnic for later this afternoon to prepare for, so I’ll be popping in and out just a bit.

    • emptywheel says:

      Keep in mind that these three things would not be responsive to Paragraph 3:

      1) Documents pertaining to the taping of the videotapes
      2) Documents pertaining to the destruction of the videotapes
      3) WH documents

      2, because that is paragraph 4–we get a preliminary list of the early stuff later, but not here.

      3, because WH is immune from FOIA.

      ANd 1, because taping is not destruction of videotape, nor recording what was shown in videotape.

      So a lot of what you’re talking about wouldn’t be responsive to THIS paragraph (some will be responsive to paragraph 4).

      And I’m wondering why the 2005 CIA IG investigation into the tapes doesn’t show, but I think that’s Paragraph 4 as well (but given that it doesn’t show here, it means there’s no discussion of what is shown in them).

      • MadDog says:

        Ok, now I’m getting with the program. This list is only to do with Paragraph 3 of Judge Hellerstein’s order.

        3, because WH is immune from FOIA.

        Though not from Durham’s investigation. And we know from the latest government filing to Hellerstein, Paragraph 4 material from Durham is soon to come.

        Also, just so folks remember this part of the timeline, today is the day that the Government promised this:

        Pursuant to the workplan proposed by the Government on April 9, 2009, which was accepted in part by the Court’s April 20, 2009 Order, we are enclosing an index describing the first half of the contemporaneous records created in August 2002. The index describes each record. As comtemplated by the schedule the Government will be proposing in response to the Court’s April 20, 2009 Order, the Government intends to submit a declaration from a senior Government official on May 22, 2009 that more fully explains the justifications for withholding under FOIA…

        (My Bold)

        Hopefully this new declaration won’t be filed ex parte and in camera.

        • MadDog says:

          Heh indeed! *g*

          As you’re hanging around and causing trouble *g*, perhaps you can render a lawyerly opinion on these parts of my # 12:

          …Was the idea of videotaping AZ’s interrogation “vetted” by CIA attorneys, either or both by the CTC’s lawyers or OGC lawyers? If so, would attorney work product rules prevent its documentation to the court?

          And this:

          …With that in mind, where are the documents identified wrt CIA DDO (or with the name change, head of NCS) Jose A. Rodriguez’s videotape destruction “approval” by I believe CTC (or NCS) attorneys? Or is that too considered non-discoverable via attorney work product rules?

          Would not my second item be germane to Paragraph 4 production, and even if it were typically considered attorney work product?

          I’ve got to believe that at least Durham would have access to it, so why not Judge Hellerstein?

        • MadDog says:

          And per the Paragraph 3 and Paragraph 4 definitions, who might have made the recommendation/decision on videotaping and any documentation of such is not germane dagnabbit!

          I’d surely like a name; if only to mark for posterity someone in the same intellectual league as Dougie Feith.

          Perhaps Durham gets that info, but who knows if we’ll ever see it.

          If it was the CIA, the weenie who came up with the idea likely has shortened his/her career there.

          If it was somebody at the White House (which I doubt), it sounds like something Fredo would come up with. I can’t see Cheney, Addington or Libby with their fingerprints on this.

          Poor Fredo, he was always meant to be a “fall guy”. Maybe even “the” fall guy. Even someone as intellectually-challenged as Junya thought so. Why else would he have named him Fredo?

        • MadDog says:

          Though not from Durham’s investigation. And we know from the latest government filing to Hellerstein, Paragraph 4 material from Durham is soon to come.

          And not just Paragraph 4 material from Durham, but from all a good deal more. As Judge Hellerstein’s Order from May 7, 2009 states:

          …I decline to postpone the production required by paragraph 4 of my April 20, 2009 order, unless the Government makes a satisfactory justification for postponement. The circumstances in which the videotapes were destroyed are relevant to the Plaintiffs’ motion, as well as to the content of the videotapes themselves. Accordingly, by May 27, 2009, the Government shall submit papers and affidavits making the showing required by this order and prior orders…

          (My Bold)

          That deadline is Wednesday next week, and thusfar, the Government hasn’t filed any justification for postponement that I can find.

    • emptywheel says:

      Oh, but going back to your May 28 document, again, that has to include details on torture. And so I think it is rightly a real smoking gun, bc it’d be Tenet or Rodriguez or Rizzo saying, “hold off on the small box confinement and waterboarding, bc Addington wants a CYA memo from Yoo first.” And since it comes at a time when we know the small box had come out (mid-May, per Soufan), but well before even Condi gave her preliminary okay, it might lay out what HQ thought the torturers could/should do in the interim.

  9. WilliamOckham says:

    The CIA would almost certainly know ahead of time that the story was coming, even before the NYT said they would publish. I would expect that there was some back and forth before Dec. 5

    • emptywheel says:

      Right. But it would only show if it discussed the techniques shown in the videotapes.

      Hell, it’s possible this was the first Hayden heard of the torture tapes and their destruction (he came in after their destruction and after the IG report on them). In which case someone would have had to say, “well, we destroyed them bc they were evidence that we went far beyond OLC guidelines in our torture.” Again, not impossible. But that’s what that email must include.

      • WilliamOckham says:

        “Relating to the content”. Hmm… Riffing off of Laura’s source

        Mike,

        We had to destroy the tapes because it showed [Redacted]’s ugly face on the video – smiling on the video of waterboarding. We couldn’t let anyone see that.

        Jose

  10. perris says:

    I think it might be important to add to the timeline when cheney said the problems at abu graeb were a few bad apples

    that is a direct indictment of those following orders he admits giving himself

    I am having trouble figuring out why more isn’t made of that fact, he allowed soldiers take a fall for following his own orders and only defends the program when he’s forced to defend himself

    one sociopath over here that’s for sure

    • sunshine says:

      What an execellent point. No loyalities for those who followed his orders. No sir, he left them to hang out in the cold, all by their selves.

      Imagine his withdrawals, a man of power most his life who now has none.

  11. WilliamOckham says:

    Also, I would imagine those later emails were something like this:

    Mike,

    As you can see from the attached email that I sent to Tenet back in Jan. 2003, the OGC suggested that we destroy these tapes to protect the identity of [Redacted]. I had no idea that those tapes were evidence.

    Jose

    [Just in case anybody’s wondering, I made that up. WO]

  12. WilliamOckham says:

    Also, nobody handwrites 133 pages in one day. I assume the date given for those handwritten logs are the start date rather than the end date.

    • emptywheel says:

      Oh, that’s a good suggestion. I thought they might have dated what FBI did when they got it from the previous 10 days or so. But your suggestion makes more sense.

  13. LabDancer says:

    Possibilities for use of term “unknown”:

    1.0 false, reflecting an effort to protect either:

    1.1 one or more careerists, possibly for being perceived as well-meaning — ie a ‘white’ lie; or

    1.2 B-team involvement or other ‘black’ lie;

    or

    2.0 true, reflecting:

    2.1 absolute ignorance;

    or

    2.2 bureaucratic ignorance, e.g. record-keeping problem;

    or

    2.3 institutional ignorance, reflecting caution as to whether author[s]’s status was as:

    2.2.1 IG personnel;

    2.2.2 careerist;

    2.2.3 B-Teamer;

    2.2.4 contractor; or

    2.2.5 covert.

    Opening lines:

    Longshot: 2.1

    Improbable, but maybe worth a sheckel on ‘show’: 2.24

    Placing A: Graham Guess: 2.2

    Placing B: Pelosi Pspecial: 1.2

    Favorite [prudent deference to fearless leader; forelock tug]: 2.2.1

    Trifecta: All the above [Note: Not the most improbable longshot]

    No odds: 2.2.5.

  14. WilliamOckham says:

    Here’s the looming question:

    Why was the proximate cause for the OIG to initiate a special review of the torture program?

      • WilliamOckham says:

        I don’t think so. They have explicitly stated that the review wasn’t started by allegations of wrongdoing.

    • emptywheel says:

      I’ve always believed maybe they did it bc special reviews are exempt from FOIA. In other words, a non-investigation investigation.

      That, and whatever bad thing happened to al-Nashiri that led them to stop waterboarding him.

      • WilliamOckham says:

        The CIA IG’s semi-annual report for Jan-June 2003 has this line in it:

        Investigations staff is leading special reviews to determine whether appropriate guidance was provided to field personnel in the performance of their duties overseas in the aftermath of 9/11.

        The one for Jan-June 2004 (when they finished) says this:

        OIG also completed a special review of management practices associated with a counterterrorist covert action program undertaken in the aftermath of 11 september. The review made a number of recommendations to review, revalidate, or modify the program.

  15. ApacheTrout says:

    Slightly off topic (and perhaps addressed elsewhere here), but what is Liz Cheney’s security clearance? She seems to be talking with knowledge that indicates a high-level clearance.

    • rapt says:

      Yes this was discussed at some point recently. My (simplest) take is that Liz is like daddy; damn the torpedos. IOW she assumes herself to be at high enough status that she need not concern herself with mere legalities. Her private discussions with a cleared person (daddy) re classified info are her own damn business thank you very much.

  16. phred says:

    O/T, EW just wanted to pop in quick to say thanks for hosting Sen. Whitehouse this morning. I couldn’t join in myself, but I was pleased as punch that you posted my questions, thank you so much. It amazes me that through your efforts (and those of Jane, Christy, and FDL more generally) an ordinary person can actually ask a Senator a question and get an answer. That’s a rare privilege and I thank you for it from the bottom of my heart.

    • whitewidow says:

      It is a great thing. My only complaint is that the chats are always too short. Especially here, because readers are always so well briefed on the topic, it would be fun if the conversation could really get in the weeds.

      And you are far from “ordinary.”

      • emptywheel says:

        True. But getting 45 minutes out of a Senator is a pretty big deal, particularly since IIRC Blue America wasn’t even a big Whitehouse funder when he got elected (though I could be wrong).

        That’s almost precisely what Levin gave us in a similar circumstance (just after we had a very active thread on his SASC torture hearing).

      • phred says:

        What a nice thing to say, thank you : )

        I agree with EW though, as much as I wish we could hog a Senator for a few hours, their schedules simply wouldn’t permit that. The fact that they are willing to take questions from random people on-line is pretty remarkable. And given a lifetime of form letter (or form email) responses from various Congresscritters, I am happy to take my chances with 45 minutes and hope they respond…

    • bobschacht says:

      Amen to that, phred, and if there’s anyone hanging out here who didn’t participate in that chat with Sen. Whitehouse, or has not gone back to review his comments (as well as significant comments by EW, Jane Hamsher, and others), I urge that you do so.

      Bob in HI

  17. fatster says:

    Fear of prosecution caused Cheney to speak out, daughter says

    Friday, May 22nd, 2009
22 Comments

    “Vice President Dick Cheney decided to speak out after learning that President Barack Obama might open prosecutions of former Bush Administration officials, his daughter disclosed Thursday.

    “Elizabeth Cheney told Fox News’ Sean Hannity that her father decided to speak out after he learned there was a possibility of legal action.”

    Video included.

    http://rawstory.com/08/news/author/raw120/

    • MadDog says:

      So typical of Cheneymania.

      Keeping their mouths shut when they should speak, and opening their yaps when they should shut them.

      If PapaDick fears prosecution, he probably ought to get a better defense attorney. I can’t imagine any would approve of his digging the hole deeper.

      But I also can’t imagine PapaDick paying much attention to any defense attorney.

      PapaDick’s loss, and our gain!

  18. fatster says:

    Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture

    “It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that’s no joke,” Mancow told listeners. “It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back…It was instantaneous…and I don’t want to say this: absolutely torture.”

    http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/…..erboarded/

  19. Hugh says:

    “Documents relating to the destruction of the tapes, which describe the persons and reasons behind their destruction”

    I believe the confusion here is that these were not CIA files but CYA ones.

  20. john2 says:

    I find myself wondering if perhaps Cheney didn’t intentionally time yesterday’s speech to distract from the release of this information. So everyone in the MSM is busy chatting away about Cheney’s same old phony claims, in a new package.

    You know Dick, if your case is so strong, why do you misrepresent the facts so much? Why did the videotapess have to be destroyed if there was nothing to hide?

    • CarlyCorday says:

      “You know Dick, if your case is so strong, why do you misrepresent the facts so much? Why did the videotapess have to be destroyed if there was nothing to hide?”

      Better yet, WHY isn’t Cheney actually being asked this?

      Do I remember right? Was there no question/answer session with the press to wind up Cheney’s show? And if not, was there no snide mention of that anywhere in the MSM?

      Is there any hope for anything? I don’t think there is. Everything rides on the ACLU and the thimbleful of smart people like YOU people following all of this intelligently and tenaciously.

      What is this about memos Cheney wants released that will PROVE his torture program saved thousands of lives (meaningless though that is, since his torture program is a war crime no matter why he did it or what he gained)? Notice how that has been left floating in the air, so that the Pat Buchanans can point to the president’s failure to declassify these supposed memos as proof that the memos exist and Obama doesn’t want them seen!

      I can’t follow all of this, I can only absorb the surface of it, I haven’t the smarts for it even if I had the time it would take me. I’m so very glad somebody does.

      This is not a hijacking. Carry on.

  21. bobh says:

    Release of the new torture photos now, presumably depicting new modes of sadism and sexual perversion, should help shut up the execrable Liz Cheney.

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