al-Libi Dies in a Libyan Prison

We have been talking heavily about torture, renditions and the legal and motivational justifications therefore nonstop for the last couple of weeks. But one of the earliest entries in this sordid tale (witness the December 18, 2001 entry on Marcy’s Torture Timeline) was the capture and torture of Ibn Sheikh al-Libi. What became of al-Libi has been ripe discussion ever since he was disappeared. From Andy Worthington (h/t Barb) we learn of al-Libi’s demise:

The Arabic media is ablaze with the news that Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, the emir of an Afghan training camp — whose claim that Saddam Hussein had been involved in training al-Qaeda operatives in the use of chemical and biological weapons was used to justify the invasion of Iraq — has died in a Libyan jail.

This news resolves, in the grimmest way possible, questions that have long been asked about the whereabouts of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, perhaps the most famous of “America’s Disappeared” — prisoners seized in the “War on Terror,” who were rendered not to Guantánamo but to secret prisons run by the CIA or to the custody of governments in third countries — often their own — where, it was presumed, they would never be seen or heard from again.

Al-Libi was captured by Pakistan on or about December 18, 2001 and was one of the earliest subjects rendered at the will if the CIA, being sent to Egypt for torture. And what did Bush/Cheney want out of him? Information connecting Sadaam Hussein with al-Qaida of course, which he eventually coughed up to his tormenters.

The significance of al-Libi in the events that followed and have led us to where we are today cannot be overestimated.

In Egypt, he came up with the false allegation about connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein that was used by President Bush in a speech in Cincinnati on October 7, 2002, just days before Congress voted on a resolution authorizing the President to go to war against Iraq, in which, referring to the supposed threat posed by Saddam Hussein’s regime, Bush said, “We’ve learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and deadly gases.”

That October 7, 2002 speech in Cincinnati was a critical base for entire set of lies that put us into the unconscionable and unjustified invasion and occupation of Iraq. You might remember the Cincinnati speech, it was the first time Bush and Cheney tried to use the infamous "16 Words" that would later appear in the State of the Union and lead to Joe Wilson’s Op-Ed and the eventual outing of his wife Valerie Plame. And those prophetic words were in that very same speech until Tenet and the CIA insisted on them being excised at the last minute because they were based upon faulty information. Think about it – the Cincinnati speech was originally a double whammy of bogus war provocation, the al-Libi fraud and the 16 Words.

But, as Bush and Cheney cravenly brought back the 16 Words (for the SOTU), so they came back with the fraudulent al-Libi based Iraq lie again too:

Four months later, on February 5, 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell made the same claim in his notorious speech to the UN Security Council, in an attempt to drum up support for the invasion. “I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these [chemical and biological] weapons to Al Qaeda,” Powell said, adding, “Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story.” As a Newsweek report in 2007 explained, Powell did not identify al-Libi by name, but CIA officials — and a Senate Intelligence Committee report — later confirmed that he was referring to al-Libi.

The problem is that the US government knew in early 2002 that al-Libi had fabricated his stories. We know this from statements by Jack Cloonan to Jane Mayer for her New Yorker article that became the basis for her book The Dark Side and (from another Andy Worthington piece) corroborating statements by fellow FBI agent Dan Coleman. (See also this Michael Hirsh article in Newsweek).

So we appear to have a final answer (there has been previous speculation about Libya) to the question of what became of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. He ended up in a Libyan prison and died there. But, as is so often the case with the Bush/Cheney torture regime, with every answer comes even more questions. How did al-Libi commit suicide, and when? Was it really suicide or was he terminated with prejudice? What exactly was the relationship of the US to Libya in this little play? There are so many questions.

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100 replies
  1. dotmafia says:

    why aren’t cheney, powell and bush directly answering to these outright fabrications they pushed upon the public? their silence is deafening.

  2. perris says:

    wigwam has a great diary where he points out that in interview cheney fingers bush and sheds blame from himself for the whole torture thing

    I sure hope bush gets wind of that because it’s about time bush stopped protecting cheney, the man most responsible for bush’s failed presidency

    • hackworth1 says:

      (Cheney) the man most responsible for bush’s failed presidency.

      Aside from Dubya himself, who through lack of intelligence, lack of confidence, a mean Napolean Complex, small mind, big ego, enormous sense of entitlement, nasty Republican anti-human, anti-animal, anti-environmental, pro-corporate “policies” and a dozen other faults, was fooled into selecting the clever, diabolical Cheney by Cheney.

    • karnak12 says:

      I’m sorry perris, I disagree. No question Cheney was a bad apple, but George could have f#$%ed this up all on his own without any outside help from the big dick.

      Cheney just goosed him along for his own agenda for which Georgie did not have a clue. “…here George, sign this,…and here…etc…”

      • Mary says:

        Cheney was Bush’s shot of whiskey – his courage. He’s the hand Bush had to have to hold when testifying to the 911 commission. Bush probably could have screwed it all up on his own, but he might not have been so bold on the Iraq element if he hadn’t had Cheney to hide behind. JMO.

  3. dotmafia says:

    i’ll answer my own question: because the u.s. mainstream media and its so-called journalists don’t have the guts or moral ethics to demand answers. they are just as guilty and complicit as the bush “administration”, and the blood of thousands is also on their hands. shameful and disgusting.

    • emptywheel says:

      Qadaffi became buds almost entirely through the involvement of Stephen Kappes, who is a top clandestine guy at least somewhat involved in our torture program.

      So yeah, that’s a good question.

      Another question is how he got from being tortured in Egypt to being suicided in Libya.

      • JimWhite says:

        Yeah, but they started the process of renouncing terrorism in 1999. The UK even normalized relations then, so at least part of Libya’s departure from terrorism pre-dates 9/11.

        Worthington’s article also says al-Libi was very sick with TB and diabetes. I wonder if natural causes have been ruled out conclusively.

        • mui1 says:

          TB, diabetes and Libyan prison. That doesn’t sound like a good combination for longevity. I agree with TheraP. I know of someone who contracted TB in a Vietnamese prison camp and apparently that was so common. Getting medication to that person required loops, hoops and money of course. Back in the very late 70s, early 80s. I take it TB medication back then was valuable in Vietnam and other parts of Asia as well. And Vietnamese officals were f*cked up. Back to al-libi, we in the U.S. are supposed to treat our prisoners with humanity. Not send them to a prison in a country where it takes a king’s ransom to smuggle medication in, if that was the case. Or knowing that a single infected cut can screw the prisoner over.

        • Mary says:

          I have to admit to not knowing that much, medically, about TB and its prevalence in areas like the middle east and southeast asia, but another alleged detainee, Saud Memon (the Pakistani who owned the lands where Daniel Pearl was tortured and murdered and who was turned over by the Pakistanis to the US and whose then-living body was dumped at his house after the Pakistani courts began making noises about requiring Musharaf to account for some of the disappeared Pakistanis, included Memon) had TB when he was dumped off.

        • mui1 says:

          Was he in a pakistani prison or “U.S. custody” CIA circle of hell? Either it seems can now cause a prisoner to catch TB or “suicide.”

        • TheraP says:

          See this from years back on TB in Russian prisons.

          Very virulent strain of TB. Resistant to antibiotics. Very easy to spread in “certain” prison environments. Once infected…. death will eventually follow unless expensive treatments are undertaken – in a hospital, with a closed ventilation system per room. In other words air in that hospital room is not mixed with anything except air from outside.

          Something tells me he didn’t get that kind of treatment! Indeed, this scenario would make it hazardous for anyone to debrief the person. How convenient!

        • Mary says:

          62 – apparently both from the reported stories. Pakistanis took him, sold him to the US, US took him and then they say they gave him back in “good condition” to the Pakistanis. Judge starts making noises about ordering his production and he is dumped off
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saud_Memon

          According to the Associated Press Memon disappeared four years ago, and held in “mysterious detention”. They report he was released on April 28, 2007, when he was left in front of his home in Karachi. They quote his brother who said when he was released he was in “poor health”; he is also reported to have been badly injured, weighing less than 80 pounds, and had completely lost his memory, being unable to recognize his family members.

          Memon died on May 18, 2007. His death was attributed to meningitis and tuberculosis

          TheraP – thanks for that link. I don’t know anything about the TB, but it caught my eye that two guys who were deemed to be worthy of the CIA treatment both ended up with TB.

        • TheraP says:

          Also @69:

          Makes you wonder how many of the disappeared were simply infected with TB and left to languish. KSM’s children too?

          I wonder if those torture tapes would have shown interrogators wearing gas masks or something! At this point, nothing would surprise me!

          I think we’ve found what happened alright! But if somehow we learn that TB was deliberately induced… (hoods?)

          (no adequate treatment, I think, is a given)

      • FormerFed says:

        EW – Isn’t Kappes now the number 2 in CIA?? So much for cleaning house in the intel community. Panetta has been cooped – the intel folk are very good at that. They will close the Green Door on you and then you are a goner.

      • Jeff Kaye says:

        And who was Kappes’ patron in D.C. when Obama came to power? Why none other than Dianne Feinstein, current chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. You know, the Senator chairing the current investigation into torture, behind closed doors. She demanded the #2 for Kappes at Langley as the price for the seal of approval for Panetta, a figurehead if there ever was one.

      • MarkH says:

        Maybe no other decent country would do it, but Libya might have for $$$.

        Who knows, maybe they killed him as part of a pre-arranged deal with W to avoid letting al Libi come back to America to talk to a Dem administration.

        • Mary says:

          I think there was a multi-fold reason he went to Libya, starting with a need to disappear him and a country willing to do that.

          But to track it all back on al-Libi to the get go, whe he was first turned over to Egypt for questioning, where was the authority to do that and not have it be a CAT violation, at a minimum? I’ve talked about this a little before, but when he was turned over, the CIA apparently was making noises that they were sending him to Egypt bc he was Egyptian and the FBI agent(mabye Cloonan?) was a little incredulous, saying that the FBI was pretty darn sure he was Libyan and that’s where the “al-Libi” came from, his Libyan heritage.

          But back then the CIA had already had a Clinton era precedent that they felt they could use for extraordinary renditions to torture. It wasn’t an OLC opinion, but according to Scheuer Mary Jo White as a then USAtty for SD NY had helped CIA out on extraordinary renditions by claiming that if someone was being handed off to a country of their own nationality where they had charges, it was ok to avoid CAT and law and go around the world kidnapping people and shipping them to third countries.

          So with Cheney’s and Bush’s need to use some of the captured to put together a reason to invade Iraq, suddenly al-Libi was deemed by the CIA to be … Egyptian. It’s likely that they thought the Egyptians would obligingly issue a warrant for him too, since they had before. But as the war was turning out badly and it looked like there might be someone other than Bush as president at the end of 2004 (althought lucky for him, CIA and DOJ had been so thoroughly corrupted by 2004 that even the “heroes” there made sure that they sat tight on Bush war crimes and covered up for them) al-Libi got too hot for the Egyptians to want to keep and we got him back.

          Then as Bush was re-elected, plans on how to deal with him more permanently could be addressed. By then, fortuitously, Bush was making nice with Khaddafi through back channels and Kappes and now you had a country where CIA could use their prior, Mary Jo White inspired game plan — ship al-Libi to Libya. Meanwhile, no one in Congress has done much about it, even though he is a very central figure to the manipulation of intel in the run up to war and is the poster child for why you don’t torture and don’t use third party proxies for interrogations and don’t violate CAT

          I have tried to mention him as often as possible in the discussions of torture, bc he really is a “talking point” that the torture apologists cannot deal with and you see it over and over if you introduce his tortured lies that sent us to Iraq into the debate. But no one will talking with him now, will they?

    • Mary says:

      I think it is Suskind’s book that lays out some of the storyline on that – according to the storyline, Cheney was against normalizing with Khaddafi but he was Bush’s kind of guy. So Bush did a work around with Tenet, to send off Kappes and keep it quiet from Cheney. Kappes played point on Libya and right now, Obama is very committed (esp with Panetta not having a CIA background) to Kappes. I’ve said before that this is a reason why he doesn’t want torture investigations – he’s reliant on people who would be intricately bound up in them. Kappes pretty much has to have been involved in the transfer of al-Libi to Libya and in Bush admin scrambling to keep from fessing up to what it is that torture bought us.

  4. Hmmm says:

    I have been wondering a lot lately whether the reason why the subject of torture has been permitted onto the TradMed agenda is precisely in order to distract from the subject of murder which has recently been in the ascendency throughout Left Blogistan. With torture, friends of the previous administration have been able to muster a certain limited amount of rhetorical wiggle room to inhabit; whereas with murder, none is possible. Is the evidence also better? I mean, is it any easier to bring a case and make it stick?

    • TheraP says:

      To me the importance of the murder issue is twofold:

      A. People died – from torture. Or whatever they’re calling it.

      B. Torture was redefined as “organ failure.” But, if you ok anything up to organ failure, some efforts to revive the dying person will fail. Thus, their very redefinition nails them when it comes to these deaths/murders.

      To me that’s the sticking point of their nonsensical redefinition. Murder involves intentional organ failure. At the same time, they say, that’s what torture is. It’s intentional. And it’s organ failure. Think about it!

      So in the end, I think, they’re nailed in three directions:

      1. They’re nailed with murder.

      2. They’re nailed by a wrong definition of torture. They created an environment, which was itself torture.

      3. They’re nailed because of their definition (torture=organ failure) which simply left the door open for deaths=murders to occur.

      Remember the SASC Report learned: “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong.”

    • Nell says:

      Is the evidence also better? I mean, is it any easier to bring a [murder] case and make it stick?

      There’s no statute of limitations, so in that respect it’s easier.

      However, it’s probably much easier to nail the higher-ups for torture than for initiating a policy that led to torturing people to death — though, in fact, once you establish such a policy, people always end up being tortured to death.

      That is, it’s easier to show that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others at the top ordered torture as a policy, and that torture resulted, than it would be to nail them as accessories to murder.

  5. bobschacht says:

    I was surprised to see the word “suicide” used in the last paragraph, when it was not used anywhere previously in the diary. Who was it who alleged that his death was a suicide? Please clarify.

    Bob in HI

    • FormerFed says:

      It’s in the Worthington article.

      A curious thought came to my mind while reading that article. It refers to “hundreds of Afghans” being taking prisoner by Pakistan when crossing the border. If the Pakistanis could take all those prisoners crossing their border then, why are they having so much trouble now??

  6. Jeff Kaye says:

    Beat you by over half-an-hour ; – )

    We owe Andy Worthington a million thank yous for keeping on top of the prisoners’ locations, situations, etc.

    My gut tells me that the al-Libi story is not over by half, and that there is much yet to know. Will the death of one of America’s disappeared finally break through and make this country wake up to the fact that some very sick and dangerous people still lurk in the halls of power, enabled by some of the weakest excuses for politicians since the fourth century A.D.?

  7. hackworth1 says:

    I wonder how long this guy has been dead and what was the cause of death. My guess is the traditional blood clots in the legs from leg beatings while chained to the ceiling. (The taxi driver COD).

  8. stratocruiser says:

    Bob, the original Worthington story that is linked to says “found dead of suicide in his cell” How and when were not specified.
    Sure is a trail of suicide following this Administration. Curious, isn’t it.

  9. CalGeorge says:

    Dick Cheney would say that al-Libi’s torture “was an honorable approach to defending the nation, that there was nothing devious or deceitful or dishonest or illegal about what was done.”

    The acquiescent Democrats won’t have much of anything to say, as usual.

  10. Kitt says:

    Good thing al-libi “killed himself” or Senator Pat Roberts would had to have killed him with his doughy bare hands when al-libi was moved to an upper crust neighborhood in Kansas to live out his peaceful life.

    1:50 into the video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..r_embedded

    • MarkH says:

      Maybe al Libi was told he was going to be released in Kansas and he just couldn’t handle the thought of it. LOL

  11. Rayne says:

    We need to know about the black site in Mauritania; what other detainees may have been treated like this?

    In November 2005, a number of detainees were moved from Poland to Mauritania, where news outlets and observers are much fewer. al-Libi was alleged to be one of those detainees moved.

    In May 2006, the U.S. announces it will restore diplomatic relations with Libya.

    Sometime between November 2005 and September 2006, al-Libi was moved to Libya.

    It really annoys me that anyone could so readily point fingers at the Obama administration and fault them for al-Libi’s death given this much information — and I’ve already seen this happen this evening. Disturbing since none of this info clears the Bush administration in any way for al-Libi’s final disposition.

    • cinnamonape says:

      If he went through Mauritania I would suspect it would have happened before early 2007 since relations deteriorated between Libya and Mauritania by then over a prospective seat on the UN Security Council.

      Soon thereafter there was a coup in Mauritania. Most of the African Union didn’t accept the coup leaders as valid…except for Libya.

    • phred says:

      Thanks Rayne, you and I thought along the same lines about this story and the normalization of relations with Libya. A week after those relations were normalized, CNN Money had a story about how this was going to be great for… wait for it… OIL!

      My two favorite bits from the article…

      Now, in addition to the restoration of full diplomatic relations, Libya is also being dropped from the U.S. list of countries that sponsor terrorism.

      snip

      And the same day the U.S. patched things over with Libya it put Venezuela, the world’s No. 10 oil producer and the fourth largest exporter to the U.S., on a list of countries that it said wasn’t cooperating in the war on terror.

      So we get a two-fer: Oil-producing Libya is off the Naughty list, while oil-producing Venezuela goes on the list (technically a different list, but both very very naughty). How convenient.

      Oh, and no longer being a state sponsor of terrorism, is a completely different category from being a state sponsor of torture, and a willing accomplice to hide torture victims for those states that do.

  12. Loo Hoo. says:

    Wiki:

    Kappes was named Deputy Director for Operations (DDO) for the CIA in June 2004 and took office in August 2004 while the appointment of Porter Goss as the next Director of Central Intelligence was still pending in the Senate. Kappes succeeded James Pavitt, who resigned in June 2004. Both Kappes and Pavitt oversaw the CIA’s Directorate for Operations during the controversial Iraq WMD reporting. He served in that position until he resigned in November 2004. John E. McLaughlin, the then-Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, announced his departure the same week Kappes quit, thus exacerbating the rumored management problems for Goss.

    It had been widely reported in the press that Kappes quit the Agency rather than carry out a request by Goss to reassign Michael Sulick, his then deputy[1]. It is also reported that this incident occurred because the chief of staff admonished the then assistant deputy director for counterintelligence, Mary Margaret Graham (who now works for the DNI John Negroponte) about leaking personnel information[1]. According to some news reports, Sulick had just engaged in a shouting match with Goss’s chief of staff.

  13. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    The problem is that the US government knew in early 2002 that al-Libi had fabricated his stories.

    Well my, oh, my.
    And Hadley didn’t get the memo…? Surprise, surprise.

  14. Jeff Kaye says:

    A commenter over at Daily Kos has translated a story on Al-Libi’s death from AFP Arabic:

    TRIPOLI (AFP) – A Libyan newspaper reported Sunday that a former official in the al-Qaeda, Mohammed Abdul-Aziz bin Alfajri known as Shaykh al-Libi was found dead having committed suicide in his cell in Libya, where he was serving a prison sentence since his transfer from Guantanamo Bay in 2006.

    The “Awya(??)” newspaper said, “Mohammed Abdel-Aziz bin Alfajri known as Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi committed suicide in his room in a Libyan prison where he was incarcerated for life” without specifying the date or manner of suicide….

    This former detainee was transferred from Guantanamo Bay to Libya in 2006, where he was sentenced to life in prison.

    The newspaper reported that a delegation from the human rights group Human Rights Watch , recently met Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi in prison….

    • TheraP says:

      The newspaper reported that a delegation from the human rights group Human Rights Watch , recently met Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi in prison….

      I hope those people from Human Rights Watch are watching their backs! And that their report gets safely into the right hands. I assume a report will surface eventually.

      • Jeff Kaye says:

        Worthington thinks it unlikely that HRW really met with him. I’ve already emailed a contact there to ask.

        I suspect the story is not going to be told straight. The HRW “fact” is just the kind of gratuitous lie (if it is in fact a lie) that perks up my ears. It is either some kind of CYA by the U.S. or Libya, or it’s part of some counterintelligence operation (who does what when this info comes out).

        That’s why I think the ICRC should be investigating this death.

        • skdadl says:

          Wouldn’t HRW speak at once, either way? I wasn’t under the impression that they kept their investigations confidential in the way that the ICRC does (and has to, I recognize), but I could be wrong (often am, don’t mind being corrected).

        • TheraP says:

          Thanks for that info, Jeff. Your reasoning does not surprise me. That’s useful to know. (What if “somebody” met with him – “pretending” to be HRW? Like CIA “debriefers” or something… to make sure he hadn’t talked to anyone else? Of course we don’t know when he died for sure, only when it was “announced” for sure) Ok, it could be stories within stories. Ah, the clandestine world where it’s lie upon lie….

        • Jeff Kaye says:

          44, 48, and others interested – I’ve been told by someone at HRW that they DID see al-Libi two weeks ago! They will be putting out a statement on this supposedly later today.

          Breaking news in the FDL/Emptywheel comments………..

        • Mary says:

          So as the torture debate does start getting nudges that maybe Congress should look into what happened with al-Libi, HRW meets with him in Libya and then … he dies. It all may be just related to the overall health issues relating to confinement and torture, but it’s very convenient that Kappes’ CIA, and Cheney, and Bush, and Rice, etc. won’t be having a living al-Libi around to be questioned.

        • Rayne says:

          Definitely worth an investigation on the face of it, due to the discrepant reporting on al-Libi’s location.

          The article you cite from AFP says he was transferred from Guantanamo, but ABC’s Brian Ross reported his move from an “Eastern European country” to a “North African country” in 2006.

          And of course there’s some question with the method by which this was reported; the Mauritanian paper reporting the move is not an online outlet, difficult to confirm exact wording. Did Ross’ source(s) actually mean more loosely that the detainees moved, including al-Libi, were moved to “North African countries“? Was al-Libi moved directly to Libya while the rest were moved to Mauritania?

          And is there any chance at all there is confusion or an attempt to confuse al-Libi with al-Liby? al-Liby was wanted by Libya; his story feels like a shell game.

        • phred says:

          Yep. I want to see a death certificate with the date of death, an autopsy report, and a corroboration from family members that positively identified the body. I’m not prepared to take anything at face value on this story…

  15. pdaly says:

    Does the International Committee of the Red Cross confirm al-Libi’s body is al-Libi?

    While it is true Al-Libi or any other prisoner of war won’t speak if he is really dead, ‘death’ could also be a convenient way for intelligence services to move a prisoner from jail to a new ghost site, without invoking a fake jail break.

  16. cinnamonape says:

    Wonder how many more of these individuals will show up dead in the next few yeras. Where are Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s kids?

  17. albertchampion says:

    gaddafi has always been our boy. we financed his coup against idris. just as we were saddam’s puppeteers. just as we ran arafat and the plo. and mubarak.

    and the theatrical entity known as al-fresco.

    the usa is/has been/will be the dramaturge.

    until the amerikan populace stops swallowing the swill disseminated by the state.

  18. sailmaker says:

    Historic night. Valtin comes out as Jeff Kaye. Al Libi is ’suicided’? Libya is revealed a ‘disappearance’ destination, and Cheney says torture harsh interrogation saved American lives??. Not necessarily in that order.

    What gets me is that far more than 100 detainees were killed if going on this http://action.aclu.org/torture…..ed/102405/ is any indication.

    I am glad that ‘Valtin’ no longer feels he needs to go by a pseudonym – and I pray that he is correct.

    • Jeff Kaye says:

      Well, really I have been “out” since my public letter resigning from the APA, if anyone were really trying to divine the identity of Valtin. I’ve published under my own name at AlterNet, OpEd News, and The Public Record, and now, Firedoglake. I remain “Valtin” at Daily Kos and my own blog, for reasons too personal or trivial to recount here.

  19. SanderO says:

    I don’t suppose we will hear about the ones that died in custody from enhanced interrogation now do you?

  20. lysias says:

    How did Al-Libi contract TB? Could it have been aggravated by things like exposure to cold?

    • TheraP says:

      Frankly, you could just blow TB infected air into a closed cell. Or keep the prisoner with anyone with TB for a while in a closed environment. It’s airborne. And very contagious in a situation where there’s little light and ventilation. It’s endemic in many third-world prisons, simply due to close quarters, little light, little fresh air. Any conditions that would lower the immune system would make it that much easier to become infected. So cold, poor diet, any type of stress. Even imprisonment is a stressor.

  21. klynn says:

    A bit O/T:

    If you did not catch the 60 Minutes piece on Ashraf Marwan, I recommend it.

    EW, I would be adding him to your Ghorbanifar Timeline. And just a FYI, Marwar is a nexis of Eqypt and Israel. I have not done enough research yet but I understand he may have had connections to Libya as well as Chalabi.

  22. Mary says:

    How convenient for Bush, Cheney and the Presidential torturers who set up American soldiers to die and be dismembered in Iraq.

    bmaz, you left out the option of whether or not he was engaged in assymetric warfare to make Libya look bad, like our GITMO suicides.

    It’s another nail in the coffin of digging into the real guts of the torture issues instead of letting the debate stay in the wheel spun rut of KSM. Congress is such a failed institution. From the moment that al-Libi was recanting in2004, they should have been pushing relentless for access to him – how could you possibly have what they purported to have – investigations into intel use in the run up to war – without ever getting access to him? And why weren’t they demanding info on how he ended up in Egypt and under what authority – who signed off on sending him there, why, what assurances were received from Egypt (and why send him at all if it was only for the Egyptians to make nice with him?) etc.

    He was one of the real lynchpins for the torture issue – if you want to see what torture gets you, he’s was the living embodiment of the answer. It got you false information (and if he was going to be tortured for info, why was it for info on ties with Iraq vs where to find bin laden?) and not only that, it gets you false info that is fixed around the agenda of the torturers. It gets you Powell lying on the world stage. It gets you Bush lying on a world stage. It gets you rows of flag drapped coffins in Iraq, it gets you what was the worst refugee crisis in the world, it gets you chaos, death, destruction, and it is a sin that will be paid for through the next generations in a very biblical sense.

    And now, when there might be a small possiblity of the torture topic getting a further or better look – he turns up dead. Obama has been committed to Kappes at CIA and Kappes was Bush’s guy for Libya, so I’m guessing no one wanted that discussion of how al-Libi came to be hidden away from any questioning about torture and disinformation for the war

    Why hasn’t Congress been SCREAMING for access to this guy? Why haven’t they been screaming for info on KSM’s children? Why haven’t … it’s all so frustrating.

    • Rayne says:

      Now THAT is enough to explain why Cheney was so ugly and aggressive this weekend, in our faces about interrogation.

      According to Stephen Grey in ABC’s The Blotter,

      Meanwhile, al Libi, who told fellow prisoners in Bagram he was returned to U.S. custody from Egypt on Nov. 22, 2003, has disappeared. He was not among the “high-value prisoners” transferred to Guantanamo last year.

      Which makes any reporting about al-Libi’s presence at Guantanamo between 2005-2006 more suspect. Did HRW note TB in al-Libi at the time they met the person alleged to be al-Libi — and was that meeting location in Libya, because the rather brief article doesn’t specify? [Never mind, I see Jeff Kaye has confirm HRW met in Libya.]

      We also need to keep in mind that the article could be a laundering of information; it’s translated from AFP Arabic, and it in turn reports on content in a Libyan newspaper, but it’s not clear if the Libyan newspapers (I see both OEA and Awya – an unrecognized paper, can’t find it – report this story but don’t name sources). And are the papers in Libya completely independent, or are they government mouthpieces?

      So let’s say Cheney visited Szymany — and al-Libi’s there in January 2005. We now have the VP at the same facility as a tortured detainee. What exactly happened while Cheney was in Poland, likely wearing his sexy snorkel coat?

      BTW, I wonder why Cheney made a point in the same bashing session this week to throw Powell under the bus…is Powell ready to talk?

      • Mary says:

        At least those were two guys whose ultimate care and handling post-torture will not be things the CIA or US has to worry about, huh?

  23. Mary says:

    You also have to wonder how much of the decision to try live burial with Zubaydah came from the contacts between CIA and Egyptian interrogators and the story of al-Libi “breaking” after being put in a coffin box for a live mock burial. As suspected, that was the straw that sent Soufan to the point where he was talking about arresting the CIA agents and contractors, but if they were all aware of what was being or had been done to al-Libi, then it pretty much puts to shame any “assurances” anyone did receive vis a vis al-Libi and broadens out the torture conspiracy issues.

    The other thing that you have with al-Libi is sourcing for whether or not Zubaydah really was (as the US press keeps claiming) a high up al-Qaeda operative or not. Especially since the original Yoo memos would have required that status to “legalize” the torture of Zubaydah

    In an earlier thread I put this up:

    Pakistan gives us al-Libi sometime after his capture in Nov 2001. We use coercion and al-Libi self-describes himself as a member of the al-Qaeda executive council so we know we have an important guy, based on that coercion.

    At this point we have nothing else to say that al-Libi is a member of that council or to say that Zubaydah is a high ranking al-Qaeda member and by Feb 2002, DIA is questioning al-libi’s credibility.

    In March 2002 we capture Z and Noor al-Deen. Al-Deen says Z isn’t a high ranking member of al-Qaeda and al-Deen is promptly disappeared to Syria, never to be heard from again other than via some of Grey’s sources.

    In June of 2002 we capture al-Faruq and (also before the August memo) reportedly begin subjecting him to sleep deprivation and other coercion over a three month period that ends with him breaking the first part of Sept (no reference to whether anything was added to his other coercion after the walling and waterboarding approvals in the August memos – but that might factor in to why he inexplicably became so chatty by the first part of Sept.

    So then you have
    *al-Libi under coercion self confirming that he is a member of alQaeda’s governing council,
    *al-Faruq under coercion self-confirming that he is the top al-Qaeda in Southeast Asia,
    *al-Faruq under coercion confessing that al-Libi and Zubaydah had ordered him to plan large scale attacks on every country he could think to name,
    *Zubaydah under coercion cross-confirming that al-Faruq is high up in al-Qaeda,
    and elsewhere
    *Binyam Mohamed under torture cross confirming Zubaydah’s high up al-Qaeda status and confirming that he and Jose Padilla visited a nuclear weapons spoof article on the websitetraining website;
    *Zubaydah under more torture cross confirming that Padilla could swing a bucket over his head
    etc.

    later days – you have al-Libi permanently disappeared. al-Noor appears to be permanently disappeared. al-Faruq has some odd stories which apparently end up with him escaping and later being killed by British troops (who won’t confirm that the guy they killed is the same guy the US supposedly questioned in 2002) No one seems to have gone back over al-Faruq’s claims to have been … well, seemingly to have held the position that Hambali held (and where was all that great torture information from al-Faruq when it came to avoiding the Oct 2002 Bali bombings?)

    As the focus shifts to those who tortured within the bounds of the memos, it’s interesting that anyone or anything with info demonstrating that the torture was not done within those bounds disappears.

    If only the CIA has made half the effort it is now making to cover up its crimes to do something other than be Bush’s goons.

    • phred says:

      As the focus shifts to those who tortured within the bounds of the memos, it’s interesting damning that anyone or anything with info demonstrating that the torture was not done within those bounds disappears.

      This adds to the pile of evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

  24. mui1 says:

    Er. Asian prisons are incredibly dirty. For that matter prisoners in the US are often quite moribund. Also military training camps.
    Achem someone I knew saw a rash of menigitis cases in the Illinois naval station (?) many many years back. I guess I am sceptical in believing TB fatalities are anything but common malignant neglect of prisoners.

    • TheraP says:

      You are absolutely correct. Crowding. Lack of fresh air. Lack of sunlight. It’s endemic in many prisons. Especially in the third world. Put just one prisoner with TB in there. BINGO!

  25. Mary says:

    You know, a trip to GITMO might have been for medical care – until he was handed off to Libya.

    • bmaz says:

      Your 77 and 78 are exactly why I said this creates a hell of a lot more questions than it closes. What I am afraid is that it will, instead, cause Congress to divert from the area, which would be unfortunate. No matter how you sum up the parts here, it does total out to be awfully “convenient” as you say. Things that convenient bother me.

    • Rayne says:

      But we have no reports about al-Libi being shipped to Gitmo, only reports (claims?) that he’d been there.

      I think the story is meant to muddy the view — which is that al-Libi was held in more than one black site, transferred between them in contravention to international law, and transferred to Libya again in contravention to international law.

      There’s so much up in the air that we can’t confirm where he was, therefore no transfers between any locations except an American facility under American control and a “virgin birth” story of appearance in Libya.

      And now we’re looking at more deliberatly fuzzy reporting to mask murder by neglect.

  26. Rayne says:

    Agh…it sure looks like Deadeye Dick took precautions in January 2005 when visiting Poland:

    Oddly, Cheney’s motorcade in Poland, all flown from the United States, had a special decontamination vehicle accompanying it to the location of the camp that once masked gas chambers as decontamination units for incoming prisoners.

    [Edit: I wonder who Madsen’s source was for that last bit? I also note that the mainstream media’s chatter about this visit concentrated on Deadeye’s wearing the snorkel jacket to a Holocaust memorial event, ignoring the likely side trip to Szymany…]

    • TheraP says:

      Now that is very helpful! And I wonder what other evidence is out there to show that US officials “took decontamination precautions”.

      I’m giving free rein to the idea of TB as a factor in many ways. Indeed, I now wonder if one of the reasons they’re keeping prisoners at Gitmo might be TB. If detainees have TB, who would want them? And how would US prisons deal with that? It would take special rooms, very costly rooms, each one with its own ventilation system to the outdoors.

      Gitmo was initially a place where the prisoners were kept in cages, open to the elements. That is NOT a breeding ground for TB. But what about those later detainees who came from the black sites? Did they arrive with TB? The Gitmo of today has enclosed separate cells. If TB is there, whether endemic or not, they might prefer to keep the prisoners quarantined. But aren’t saying.

      I have no info beyond what’s public. But the TB deaths sure makes me wonder. A whole lot.

      • Rayne says:

        It’s not a legitimate excuse for holding these people indefinitely in conditions in detention facilities. Drug-resistant TB as a worst case scenario would warrant hospitalization, and would also mean greater restrictions on persons working at or visiting the facility, which we are not seeing reported.

        If there are numerous cases of TB, it’s likely incidental to being from third-world sites of origin, and/or being held in less-than-sanitary facilities overseas (like black sites). I don’t envision it being a method of torture because TB is like most other bugs, too unpredictable, and too time-consuming for results.

        • lysias says:

          But wouldn’t the failure to provide conditions that do not promote the spread of TB be a war crime in itself?

        • TheraP says:

          Crime against humanity, I’d think. I’m recalling Native Americans, given blankets infected with small pox. It’s a terrible thought. But shipping people to black sites could well have meant disease was possible. Interesting line of inquiry.

          Good for questions at any rate. (if any future prosecutors happen to be reading…)

          Feel free to erase any of these concerns if they seem too far off base.

        • Rayne says:

          Which is the bigger war crime?

          Transferring a detainee — uncharged, without status — to an undocumented facility across national boarders?

          Transferring a detainee to a country which is known to torture?

          Torturing the detainee multiple times in multiple locations?

          Or failing to provide sanitary conditions and adequate health care?

          Sorry to be so flippant, but TB is really the least of the problems here.

        • TheraP says:

          Sorry I got off on a tangent. It started with some questions about TB. I gave it too much thought. My apologies.

        • lysias says:

          The others could arguably be defended as an attempt to get vital intelligence.

          The failure to provide sanitary conditions exhibits, if not an intent to kill, then at least a grossly negligent intent not to strive to keep alive.

        • Rayne says:

          I think it could go to intent, if it can be shown that there was a systemic indifference to the care and welfare of the detainees.

          But the transfers, torture, and withholding of information about al-Libi as well as other detainees are likely to be seen as more egregious violations of Article 3 under Geneva Convention, and again as violations under UNCAT.

          With the numbers stacking up, it’s going to very difficult to show something other than an intent to systematically abuse civil rights.

        • mui1 says:

          I think all those are important. Prisoners contracting TB as well as AIDS and other illness after being held by the US, or in US custody is also important. During the holocaust, persons had their citizenship stripped away, were detained at concentration camps and were murdered by gaschamber or murdered by murderous conditions. I’m going to guess far more people in camps ended up dying of typhus etc. It’s hard to argue which is the “worst.”
          I don’t think dirty prisons should be considered a “tangent”. They are part of the whole picture. Not the only part of course. I also think it could be another darn good talking point for closing GITMO inc down. Of course wingnuts would say liberals want to “unleash” infected people on the population at large, but for all we know Rush’s sex tourism has gotten him some nasty illness, so he shouldn’t be one to talk.

        • Palli says:

          Sadly, it all is important…the total picture of depravity. Which particular offence against humanity is going to burst the bubble of indifference in any one individual human we don’t know, so all must be exposed.

        • TheraP says:

          I agree with all your points. I never envisioned as a method of torture. Just as a means of “elimination”, especially if you coupled it with AIDS. Up till now medical status of detainees has been classified, so far as I know. Lawyers would have known that though, so we can probably rule it out of Gitmo. But not the black sites.

          @83: Yes, the void… it’s an all too real void. All too terrible, I fear.

  27. maryo2 says:

    Contaminated air is a reason to video tape techniques – so that the watchers don’t have to be in the room with the bad air.

    • Rayne says:

      Probably not the real reason, though, why they taped interrogation. It may have more to do with the ability to screen and re-screen results for clues.

      But it may explain why we’ve seen some photos of people wearing gloves when working with detainees.

      And it may also explain the use of walling technique, where a detainee is wrapped in a towel and whipped against a lined wall: no hands on contact necessary to batter.

      Jeebus. Staring into the void too long…

  28. damagedone says:

    Cheney was asked on Face the Nation this past week whether he would be willing to answer questions under oath for the Leahy committee. He dodged the question just like Vietnam. Still a coward!

  29. MaryCh says:

    Despite all that is Cheney, I gotta go with GWB as a condition precedent — without his candidacy/selection we wouldn’t have gotten 4th Branch.

  30. leveymg says:

    There are some more questions about al-Libi’s death. Why has no one been asking about the other at least 10 CIA “ghost prisoners” who have disappeared, their whereabouts and means of interrogation still unacknowledged by the CIA? Why were these prisoners disappeared, while others ended up alive in GITMO?

    More on this at: http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..ed-Suicide

    • Rayne says:

      At least 3 of the detainees you’ve listed were reported by ABC as transferred from Szymany, Poland to the black site in Mauritania in late 2005:

      – Hassan Ghul
      – Abdul Rahim al-Sharqawi
      – Mohammed Omar Abdul-Rahman

      Need to know who else is stuck in the middle of B.F. Mauritania.

  31. spoonful says:

    It seems that with the release of more and more information regarding this issue, the more Obama seems inclined to permit the wheels of justice to turn. I believe this turnaround is due to constant hammering away by the true patriots of this country like the ACLU and the writers of this Site who expose the truth about our government’s war crimes. This role of conveying such important information was a role formerly played by some of the great newspapers of the last century, but we’ve all seen what’s happened to them . . .

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