The FISA Shaft Is Underway
As you know, the FISA Amendments Act has been being negotiated behind closed doors by Steny Hoyer, Kit Bond and friends for some time now. See here and here. Well, the action is coming a little faster than we all anticipated.
It now appears quite clear that either the House will vote on the War Funding Supplemental and then go to the FISA Amendments ACT or, and it is not clear at this time what the odds on this are, link the two bills and vote on both at the same time. Here is what we do know. House has finalized their war supplemental bill, and it appears to be a go for a vote tomorrow (Thursday). So, the best evidence is that the vote on FISA will be on Friday June 20, and may be as early as Thursday night. There is precious little time left to make our voices heard.
Here is what Liz Rose from the ACLU gave me for publication:
One thing bugging me is that we do not have the Hoyer draft and neither do reporters; and yet some reporters are believing every single word Hoyer says. Feingold, Leahy, Conyers do not have the draft; the only people who do have it are Rockefeller, Bond, and Hoyer. People who are for the proposal. And yet I have not yet heard anyone question why that is. No sunshine and no one demanding to see the details.
Plus, even if leadership will vote with us, and act like they are on our side, the truth is they control the calendar. Nothing happens unless they want it to. It is so cynical and calculating. And it seems that the unwritten story is that this whole FISA cave in is really all about the DCCC and their worries about freshmen dems getting re-elected. They are not afraid of terrorists — they are afraid of ads about terrorists. If they were really afraid of terrorists they would just extend the orders. But all they really want is to reward the big telco contributors and get more checks for their campaign coffers. It is all political.
But I think they are wrong. Fear mongering did not help Guiliani win. And remember how good the House Dems were when they stood up on FISA and said no to the senate bill?. I will keep you up to date. Thanks. Liz
She is right. We, and more importantly, the Constitution, are being sold out for rank political posturing. Pitiful state of affairs that.
Here is the latest scheduling information from the House I can find.
Subject: House Approps 2008
TRACK BILLS: House Approps 2008
Draft Bill — Fiscal 2008 War Supplemental Appropriations (House)
Official Title: Fiscal 2008 War Supplemental Appropriations (House)
Cosponsors: No reported cosponsors
Next Scheduled Action: June 19, 2008 — Scheduled action — House Rules Committee (Chairman Slaughter, D-N.Y.) will consider a rule for floor debate for pendiing legislation. Time TBA, H-313 Capitol Bldg. New
NEW on this bill
Bill Actions
June 19, 2008 — Scheduled action — House Rules Committee (Chairman Slaughter, D-N.Y.) will consider a rule for floor debate for pendiing legislation. Time TBA, H-313 Capitol Bldg. New
So, for any Wheelers and Lakers, if you find better information, please post in the comments. Maybe we will have a longer period to act in, but history shows that we must assume the worst. That means the FISA vote, the big kahuna, is going to be Friday, and maybe even Thursday night. Heave Ho.
This sucks. That’s all I’ve got. Off to bed, wondering how Steny sleeps at night.
this, i think, is exactly right. it’s not just hoyer.
It’s all just so cynical and manipulative. The ‘Doublespeak’ from Hoyer is astounding. The silence from Pelosi is deafening.
With apologies to Stephen Colbert — Steny, Harry, Nancy, Dick, you are all officially on notice if you pass this atrocity.
Boy, no kidding. If this goes down like it looks like it might, all this effort, over almost a year, and almost nothing to show for it. This started in early August last year with the sneaky passage of the Protect America Act. And here we are right back there again. Because we cannot see Hoyer’s piece of work, I cannot get a bead on the other factors like minimization and exclusivity; I assume they will be as described in this article linked above. However, it looks like there is going to be far to much self actuating ability for the executive branch, and effectively basket warrant ability (although slightly more restricted from the PAA).
I don’t know; it is just depressing to chew on.
from Wednesday, January 18, 2006:
Pelosi: ‘We Will Create the Most Open and Honest Government in History’
my bold.
Great catch!
Yep, I kind of believe the ACLU when they are telling me that Conyers, Leahy and Feingold haven’t seen the proposed final bill though.. Kind of puts the lie, again, to Nancy eh?
Yeah, believe me, I remember the helpless feeling last summer.
i believe feingold, but not conyers. not after what he and reyes did with the restore act version 1 last fall.
p.s. and of course i believe the aclu.
and pelosi can bite me. i believe her as much as i do hoyers.
why do I get this,”if you investigate this I’ll see to it that you don’t get any terrorist intel”,Bandar sort of looming threat on the horizon tactic going on here.Hell, if Bandar can threaten the Brits what makes you think bushco can’t make it perfectly clear that the idea of a potential terrorist threat can become a reality with just a word from me and the boys.
Dodd staff said he had not seen it and he was the main opposition did the latest embarassment with Countrywide…a $4 billion buyout put him on the sidelines? Blackmail is serious stuff.
Thanks ew thanks all. “It is all political”
This is pathetic.
so what do we do? Of course spreading through the blogs. Calling Reps. what else?
If their concerns are their own complicity “freshman Democrats” etc. Some of us in southeastern Ohio who worked our asses off for Congressman Zack Space (took Delay’s spot). If he votes for this I know lots of folks who will work their collective asses off to seem him bumped.
Will also be watcing closely for what our new Rep Congressman Wilson who rode in on the coat tails of our dearly beloved former Congressman Strickland (now Ohio’s Governor). Many of us are watching Wilson and Space rather closely.
It all went down during Yearly Kos. Was that an accident?
I respectfully disagree.
Sure, the telsatcos want it and BushCheney want it and some other entities (NSA, CIA, DoD, maybe FBI) want it.
But if this thing passes, and we can smell the stench by the very fact that it’s not been publicly released, then Hoyer and Pelosi will have stirred up a hornet’s nest.
To believe that this would prove to end up as ‘nothing to show for it’ is far too simplistic IMHO. It would be like the Emperor on this throne in the Death Star sending out his bots. How many people have read (or know someone who’s read) the Wired blogs? How many people support Ron Paul? How many people read FDL, Glenzilla, DWT, EW….
This would be a classic Beltway f*ck up.
Proof perfect that these people are corrupt to the core, cannot be trusted, and now will through their own foolish conduct find themselves politically threatened.
If they ‘win’ on this, it’ll by a Phyrric victory that will come back to haunt them.
ROTL it’d be sorta nice if you’re right. What a mess…
I’m actually fairly confident on this one.
I live out West, and so I hear from some people in Idaho, MT, Oregon, the ‘Inland Empire’ who tend to be pretty ornery, independent, ‘right wing’ types. I could tell last summer that this issue wasn’t falling along Dem/Republican lines.
It’s not at all that surprising to me that the libertarians are the first to step up and join in with ACLU and FDL and Glenzilla. (It actually wouldn’t surprise me if some of the evangelical groups joined in, although I wouldn’t make any predictions about it.)
It’s really encouraging and heartwarming, but it’s not surprising.
It’s actually remarkably consistent with the themes that I’ve heard the past year or more.
I understand your point, but what is it we will win? When will it be? What will be left? This is pretty huge on it’s own merits, really huge actually, because of the hideously caustic effects on the 4th Amendment. I am not sure it is easy to understand how much that is the case without having been immersed in criminal and civil rights law in some form or another. But there is not really a whole lot left of the 4th at this point, and this effectively takes out a large chunk of what is left, in spirit if not word. So, I have a real hard time buying into your view here. Then on top of that, there is the appearance of it all. We have given pretty much as good a shot on this as we have anything over the last couple of years (from the perspective of the progressive blogosphere) and if it goes down this way, it is pretty humiliating and telling. At least that is my opinion. The future is always the future; we keep getting our asses kicked and losing the farm in the present. Doesn’t feel all that rosy to me.
Hoyer’s politics are like the horse and buggy.
Howie Klein, Jane Hamsher, and even Obama are creating — living — the politics of the airplane and the automobile.
(Leaving aside the downsides of planes and autos for global warming…) Hoyer’s like Hillary; he knows there’s something new happening but he doesn’t really ‘get’ it so he’s playing the game he knows.
There’s a new paradigm and changing the law is only going to produce thoroughly pissed off, antagonized voters. It’s stupid.
It’s about as smart as if Microsoft offered Win98 at a ’special discount rate’ tomorrow. It’s insulting.
Hoyer is saying, “I’ve got my kabuki all set up so that I can have my cake and eat it too.”
ACLU is saying, “How come Steny’s got frosting all over his chin?”
Everyone else is going, “yeah, what’s up with that?!”
Yes, they can shift the law for a bit, but the EFF and the newly emerging (converging) energies fueled by outrage will do several things:
(1) create new structures to fight in court
(2) create new structures to compete in elections — with Steny as Number Uno for retirement
(3) coalesce around people whose work, personal philosophies, and/or business interests are deeply offended by the idea that we’ve now sunk to about the same level of surveillance as Communist China.
Hoyer’s now made himself about as ’statesmanlike’ as a Russian thug.
Beyond stupid.
Pyhrric.
That is all dandy. Would have been nice to still have a 4th Amendment left when all those trailblazers get to the promised land. But airplane Obama couldn’t get his sad ass off the ground to fight for it. Some Constitutional scholar. Spitooey on that as far as I am concerned.
We all called and asked the then, what 8 candidates to take a break from the campaign and show and vote oaginst telecom immunity. How many did? Why not? That is the question we need to have answered. Loo Hoo is right something is up.
I do share some of your frustration, but this really strikes me as having some underlying aspects of a ‘predator/prey’ competition.
The telsatcos want immunity; new groups lobby against it.
The telsatcos work behind the scenes; the new groups have more contacts now and they discover what’s happening.
The telsatcos (and Hoyer) want retroactive immunity; the new groups adapt to this info and create new funding to damage Hoyer’s crediblity in his district.
The new groups are becoming more astute in what they focus on, target, and accomplish.
The traditional lobbies and The Usual Congressional Suspects haven’t quite adapted to this new reality, and they’re still scrambling.
This issue is too big for Obama to ignore — he’d be foolish to alienate the EFF (!).
I’m not saying ’sit on your hands and feel futile’.
I’m saying this issue is deeply embedded in the American psyche, and passing a law that fundamentally violates American sense of justice, fairness, personal privacy, and social relationships is just stupid.
There are mistakes that kind of lie dormant and people move on.
Then there are mistakes that come back to bite you in the butt.
This is the second kind of mistake; Hoyer’s telling Americans that they should roll over, be gutless weenies, and simply let themselves be spied on.
Things have their nature.
Hoyer’s doing something ‘unAmerican.’
People don’t forgive or forget that level of stupidity.
Pyhrric.
Telcos still haven’t put squat in for an effort on this fight; even thought they have gotten more active lately. If they were really concerned, they would be saturating the airwaves with ads and putting a full court press on. that is not happening. I will bet dollars to donuts that the only reason they have increased their efforts in the last few months is because the Bushies told them to and are underwriting the effort in some covert way. I will flat out bet on it. This is only superficially about telcos; it is really all about Bushco.
And I agree with you 100% on this, too. The thing is, BushCo can still be investigated by the next Congress and by the next DoJ, right? So, their machinations only get them so far. I’m sure Bush will try to pardon himself and Cheney et al for any and all crimes proactively, but I don’t think you can just wave a magic wand and pardon yourself for crimes you haven’t been charged with — although Scalia and Roberts will probably allow such an interpretation.
The important thing in the long run is to air all this dirty laundry and get Bush behind bars. Discovery and then explanation to the public, and revising FISA to protect our 4th Amend rights are the motherlodes for me. It will take time, but we will get there.
And I wonder if the TelCos have gotten more active lately because our leaders pointed out that the administration needed their asses covered, not the TelCos. It seems like an immediate (half-hearted) response.
Not to mention it is a full boat presidential election year; they are just looking for reasons to spread their seed money around; this is a great excuse.
Agree “The Big Dog” is still on the porch. And until you realize how that Dog has grown over the last 5 dedades you have no idea what/who you are dealing with. I know thw GNP is upwards of $19 trillion dollars high end. The assets that produce that are much greater and they move them at will. They laugh at governments eat em and spit them out. Their is no leach on this dog. He does what he wants to. #200k in a day does not move him. If all Progressives were elected you still don’t put a leash on him.
Readers of the Tea Leaves I’m just sayin if you want to play with the big dog pack prepare for dog bites and that is what is driving this immunity issue.
Should have been more clear — the Emperor’s actions, in showing such contempt for his ’subjects’, only made them more determined to dismantle the Death Star.
And just to be clear — I am **not** in any way advocating violence (!).
I’m simply trying to point out that things often have unintended consequences.
Domestic spying is something that Americans tend to associate with Communists, the Mafia, and dictators. It is ‘unAmerican’ to spy on your own citizens. Even 9-11 didn’t change this fundamental belief — the proof lies in this new network springing up as a response to the outrage generated by Hoyer’s foolish actions.
Hoyer’s playing Beltway politics that have ALREADY produced the first joint effort between libertarian Republicans, the ACLU, the EFF, and ‘lefty’ blogs. He’s already put in motion a reaction that will sooner or later result in his demise. He clearly thought that he would get away with it.
Surprise!
It is the coming back to haunt us that I am worried about. As for stirring up a hornet’s nest, Pelosi and Hoyer haven’t accomplished squat since the current Congress began a year and a half ago. They have sat back and facilitated Bush at every turn. They remind me of General McClellan during the Civil War. He always thought the enemy he was facing was twice as big as it was and that he needed twice as many troops as he had before he could do anything.
So hope you’re right.
“will have stirred up a hornet’s nest” for sure. Let’s keep stirring.
worthless foam from the mouth
some potentially useful links:
house rules committee hearing schedule – be on the look out for an emergency meeting.
daily leader – from hoyer’s office, has the house floor schedule for the day.
house floor summary – detailed timeline of house floor legislative actions
video timeline of house floor statements from cspan – will be populated with their video coverage.
and for a blast from the past. here’s how fisa went down in the house last year with the august for the paa.
Heh. This is being, or at least it appears to be being, sprung almost as fast and slick as the PAA last summer doesn’t it? If everybody was at Ykos or NetrootsNation or whatever, it would almost be deja vu all over again.
yeah. i’m glad to have more company watching this go around. last year it took those of us who were home watching cspan several days to convince all the folks at yearlykos about what had happened.
There is some hope in that technically, the Congress can’t make the Constitution and the Bill or Rights, etc, just disappear by legislating. But, yeah, it makes it tougher to accomplish legal ramifications for criminal behaviour if the Congress passes laws that make the illegal behaviour seem legal…kind of like what SCOTUS just had to rule on with regard to habeas.
This has always been a sore point for me, but it reminds me again that the imposition of criminal consequences for certain behaviours is very often a function of the identity and status of the offender. It is a crime if some vagrant breaks into my house, but not a crime if large powerful rich corporations break into my computer and steal my most personal information. If a crack addict steals to support his addiction, he is a criminal and goes to jail, but if Cindy McCain has an addiction and steals to feed her addiction, she does not go to jail. And the band played on…..
The only thing that makes sense is that the Democratic leadership in both the House and the Senate are compromised in the whole FISA mess from back in the scary early days after 9-11, and they don’t want their complicity exposed. It can’t be worry about attack ads, or electoral consequences – it has been demonstrated by recent election results that opposition to immunity is not kryptonite for Democrats, even in red districts. Obama has likely decided not to poison his relationship with the Democratic Congressional leadership on this issue, important as it is, because he wants there full backing when he rolls out his legislative agenda in 2009. Remember how a combative Democratic Congress made life miserable for Bill Clinton in 1993? I’ll bet Obama does. The only thing that would make this kabuki more perfect is if they make Cheney break some contrived “tie” in the Senate.
Heh. Wish I could argue with that. I think they know Greenwald et al are gearing up and they want to slide this bunk through before we have a chance to organize.
it’s not impossible that there was some bs warrentless wiretapping that began during the clinton years. i can’t rule it out after finding out that extraordinary rendition (kidnapping people to take them to egypt to be tortured and or killed) was begun in the clinton administration.
One of the many reasons I did not support HRCs bid for the WH.
I suggested on another thread, and will repeat here: I think we should send missives re Hoyer’s FISA trickery to Chris VanHollen [chair of the DCCC] and Chuck Schumer [DSCC].
Each has to be sensitive to money-raising issues, and the performance of the ActBlue page in raising a LOT of $$$ FAST should tell them something.
That combined with the increased registration of new voters decreases the “threat” [sic] to freshman Dems from terrorist propaganda and increases the threat to them from insufficient funds.
Someone smarter than I can probably put together a good argument and fire it off to those two [and perhaps Dr. Dean?]. My attitude is to hit ‘em in the pocketbook, which is where their attention is these days.
PS – to everyone who writes/calls/faxes: keep it short. Quantity matters more than “quality.” [Take it from a former Congressional staffie.] Just make the point and send it off.
Marchons.
What the goddamn hell happened to transparent government? Isn’t their a law that says congresscritters and their staff have to be given time to read, study and research the proposed bill before it goes to the floor? Are we relying on closed door negotiations to decide our future? Where is the fucking bill? In Cheney’s safe for safe keeping. Is there notes and memos for discovery between the Whitehouse their tool Bonds and the rest of the blue dogs? How do the Blue dogs know it is allright. This illegal business and big telecom has their feet on the scale of justice. We live by The Brown Act in California, is their a law in congress that they have to reveal their communications and e-mails to commitee members and who they are negotiating with?
ACLU has not seen it and it goes to a vote. Dodd’s staff told me he is not involved. This is spying on the congress and blackmailing them. These goddamn son of a bitches asked for am Impeachment. Time to demand it. I am calling Kucinich tommorow and asking whu no one is commiting to filibuster as I learned today. This is totalitarion government. We said the Whitehouse was illegal now the vongress is conducting the public business in a similar style?
Where is Obama?
Where is Pelosi?
Where is Reid?
Where is Durbin?
Where is Clinton?
Where are the Democrats? All the Democrats?
If this goes down, the only people who won’t be tainted by it are that handful of progressive Democratic Representatives who voted with Republicans to torpedo the PAA extension earlier this year. Everyone else (Leahy, Feingold, Dodd included) will be complicit in this as they have been on so much else these last 7 years.
1 (800) 828 – 0498
1 (800) 459 – 1887
1 (800) 614 – 2803
1 (866) 340 – 9281
1 (866) 338 – 1015
1 (877) 851 – 6437
If Bushco walks with telecom immunity the dem brand is the laughing stock of the conservative world known as weinie butts. No pride. He has then pulled off the heist of the millenium a super crime of trillion dollar proportion, torture, murder and mayhem. And immunity may apply to the crimes recorded in the datamining. There is the smoking gun that’s why they don’t care what political tarring they get it is better than the legal roof and all the liability they have avoided.
Pelosi has an email-like comment submision form here. H/t selise, I just told it:
Oops, linky.
Hmmm. Here are a couple of clips from the NYT report on the War Supp agreement tonight that will be voted tomorrow.
Hmmm. Hoyer, Pelosi, agreement, pass now so President can sign before we leave for July 4 vacation. Gee where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, I think it is the same exact language I have heard them say about the FISA bill. Fancy that. Thsi si why I wish I knew more about their procedural process; because this looks ripe for that linkage rumored about a week or so ago. I don’t trust them one bit not to try something craven like that tomorrow.
remember this?
Counterfeit philosophies have polluted all of your thoughts
Karl Marks has got you by the throat and Henry Kissinger has got you tied up in knots
You got innocent men in jail,your insane asylums are filled
you got unrighteous doctors dealing drugs that will never cure your ills
Adulterers in churches and pornography in the schools
You got gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules
when you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain
To Nancy Pelosi:
Immunity for a crime against “We The People” is unacceptable. The mystery bill Bond FISA approved by the White House is an unknown document purported to to give the immunity we fought against to telecoms.
1. The proceedure on a big constitutional issue is not transparent.
2. You are doing the business of the people without the transparency you promised us.
This bill should be published in the Congressional register before a vote is scheduled.
Thank You for your attention to this fourth amendment issue.
;-))
I do take your point, and I share much of your frustration.
But I’ve also worked with ‘adult learners’ enough to know that it’s sometimes a process of ‘two steps forward, one step back’. Takes practice.
And as for accomplishing ‘nothing’… I’d say they got Gonzo out, realized that DoJ is completely out of hand, and Levin’s little hearing yesterday struck me as the ‘laying of breadcrumbs’.
But Hoyer’s evasions about WHO sets the House voting calendar and schedule should be met with scorn, derision, contempt, ridicule, and then tarred, feathered, and ‘run out of town on a rail.’ That’s just insulting.
And I think it’s safe to state that we don’t appreciate being insulted in this fashion, now do we... (evidence provided in the form of the $70,000++ raised within 24 hours by pissed off, disgusted Americans… mmmwaaahhahah….!)
If this gets enacted, whatever exactly ‘this’ entails at this point, is there any reason why the law itself (as opposed to liability findings against any particular telco) wouldn’t be vulnerable to challenge in court? This business of stripping the FISC (or, in the alternative proposal, a US District Court) of all ability to consider illegality of a telco’s actions strikes me as both analogous to last week’s habeas decision from the Supremes, and exceedingly unlikely to sit well with the Article III Department. Or is there some standing loophole that would foreclose that avenue?
It will be able to be challenged; but will result in an awfully weak and compromised position from which to do it; very bad odds of any success. The legal technicalities are kind of complex, and i just don’t have the energy to go into all of them, but trust me the outlook would not be good. For one thing, the resulting burden of proof for the plaintiffs in the telco suits would be very adverse.
The choice of court does make a difference in theory, although in practice I don’t think it will change much if the rumored legislation goes through – ie, “if the telco’s got a letter from the WH Counsel saying it’s OK, case dismissed”. The FISC is a court of statutory jurisdiction, I believe, meaning that Congress can very likely dictate to it. A US District Court, on the other hand, is a court of inherent jurisdiction, meaning it can raise issues and apply other statutory and Constitutional remedies without reference to its enacting statute as a source of jurisdiction. FWIW, I don’t think there is much hope for the Constitutional challenges to the legislation insofar as it relates to the amnesty provisions for the telcos.
Telco dereg nominally passed about twelve years ago, but remonopolization recurred fast. Even folks like John Chambers and Carly Fiorina are working to elect the candidate who says Roberts and Alito are the kind of judges he needs to nominate. Telco dereg’s hasty dissipation might appear peripheral to the currents with the debate on wiretapping, but the newly reconstituted telco pantheon affords those monolitic donors ease of having their way on issue skirmishes. We need the next congress to reexamine the dilution of telco dereg. I am guessing the mirror nodes are a topic telcos want congress to forget about exploring in hearings, but congress is about to change with the election. Wiretaps are easier in this day of voice recognition in silicon and software like speechmachines’ and nuance’s. The burgeoning surveillance state is a cookiecutter response to terramisfits organized or otherwise. Another direction of contemplation might be a closer look at the recent announcement of annointment of Hoyer and Emmanuel as successor to Nancy. A more responsive congress in 2009 might help leadership succession change directions.
It almost seems like the democrats are so scared of Bush/Cheney that they’ll do anything to placate them. Sometimes I wonder if they have something so terrible-that the dems know about-that they’ll do anything to appease them.
I don’t have any doubt that they’re dealing with sociopaths, and somehow I can’t get my mind around the idea that the dems are so corrupt that they’d sell us out for no good reason.
Something’s seriously up.
Note that every Dem who caves to these jerks loses an election.
Every Dem who stands up against their bullying wins.
People don’t vote for people who let themselves get bullied.
(Frankly, I know people who didn’t like Bush, and only voted for him reluctantly in 2004 because they felt that John Kerry didn’t ’stand up to Bush’ enough — despite Bush playing dirty. Another reason that I’m glad to see the Obama campaign put up that Rumor Control website so soon!)
The wiretapping up till now probably has enough dirt to bring down 90% of all the Congresscritters anytimne Bushoco wants to.
But even that is a gamble for BushCo. So Congress critters lose the election…Bush and CheneyCo are on trial for serious death sentency crimes. They are in a no win situation. Unless they do something unthinkable.
Looking at it from their point of view, “in for a dime, in for a dollar.” Get ready for the October surprises.
If there is one it will be on Israel not the Waterboy’s administration. There is no chance in hell that this Iraq 4 way with Big US Oil happens without ensuring Iran won’t mess with it. All 4 of the Big Shiite political groups are connected to Iran by religion & support, al Malaki most of all. And since oil is fungible a thriving and Iranian-”tolerated” Iraq oil export business might show a lot more exports than production might account for.
This of course shafts the Sunnis in Iraq which one would think given Waterboy’s & Dick’s Saudi connections would make no sense. It makes sense if one recognizes that the Saudi reserves are a long term concern. So why would King Abdullah make noises about upping production? In hopes of getting Waterboy & Dick to deep six this Shiite-Big US Oil alliance. But without this deal there’s no SOFA no US bases no Waterboy trademark no guaranteed supply for Halliburton’s new regional HQ ie Dick’s own legacy .
Fact is we’ve out of Saudi for a while & having been selling them plance cuz they will be on their own [except they can always get USAF & USNavy -trained jet pilots from Blackwater].Plus things with Turkey must be pretty damned suspect given that for the US to even keep Turkish air space available they are having to keep Turkey happy by hosting daily human hunting forays into Northern Kurd Iraq. And why are the establishment Northern Kurd Shiite Iraq parliamentarians putting up with the US-sponsored raids by Turkey? The answer my friend is flowing in the pipes. Despite Pat Lang’s sources, I see Israel’s pressing the Waterboy to bomb Iran as a warning to Waterboy against solving his problems by cutting Iran in on the Iraq oil deal. It’s not as if Waterboy is all that tough to figure out & they’ve seen more than enough of him.
Shite! Sorry bmaz for veering so far OT. As to that: Steny will be 70 next year & for his entire Congressional career has been too junior or in the minority to make the big score. This is Steny’s sayonara, & by his strict adherence to some newly-realized “tradition” his Congress site won’t even accept out of state emails. Where has there ever been any indication of Steny being some highly principled sort”
Plus he came got his early training with Pelosi the two of them working under the exact same Dem rep, and try as you might to examine every aspect of The Gavel with a fine toothed comb & fingerprint powder – there is not a single sign of the FISA being an issue: that is NOW, after months of it being accessible as something to point to with pride.
My read: the pride goeth thing happened a while; here comes Steny’s pension.
Sorry but back to the OT: This sure fits Israel yelling all tough at Iran “Get back or I’ll shoot or I’ll get my crazy Uncle George to shoot”, while at the same time working out its peace accords with Jordan [just done] Jordan [in the bag] Egypt [anything to stop the flood of Mexkins- – uh, Palestinians] Saudi because this is sort of kind of a almost like a variation on the Abdullah plan- leaving Iran-supported Lebanon as the pawn in providing a ’solution’ to the Palestinian problem.
By the time this plays out there will be a regular standoff at the O.K. corral.
The lesson I have learned here is the opponents of democracy are patient, persistent and pragmatic. The battle is a daily one and we need greater numbers and minds, Marcy, Jane and a few others will need the coalitions they formed today and pull existing groups together too. Their vigilance may have given us the opportunity to stand and fight for our rights. The Lawyers Guild feels passionately about this issue.
When I got into Shock Doctrine my worst fears were confirmed. The Multi national corporations that want to rule the world will use any and all means to achieve control. USA has over 900 military bases on the globe to influence that goal. The resource wars that we have paid for have taken our freedom. It will require great sacrifice to retake it. Our service people’s sacrifice in Iraq was for the Big Corporations benefit it was not for our freedom. Our freedom is to serve the Corporation’s needs for labor and consumers. Go to Bill Moyers show June 13, last Friday. he has three guest that document how we are a tool for the profits of the 5% that own the wealth of the world the “Elitist”. Be vigilent.
for me,everthing’s a little upside down
As a matter of fact the wheels have stopped
What’s good is bad and bad is good
You’ll find out when you reach the top
You’re on the bottom
Makes the torture hearings appear all the more so to have been kabuki. The compromise lets the telecoms off if they can provide a court with a request from Bush & Co. stating wiretapping Americans was legal. Why should Bush’s opinion be a get out of jail free card? Where has his administration shown any kind of facility for rendering accurate legal opinions? The Justice Department was sufficiently corrupted that an attorney general resigned. We have seen how far afield the opinions as to what is legal have been in the torture arena. And the opinions as to wiretapping produced by Bush are premised on his interpretation of his unlimited wartime powers. By passing this Congress in the face of a flawed system of self-serving overreaching executive branch legal opinions is ratifying these excesses and signing away any respect for legislative checks on the executive. Why is Bush yet garnering gestures acknowledging his good faith? And that its being done in the secret last minute way that characterized so many bits of legislative fiat by the Republican Congress prior to 2006 says loads about what interests are being protected. The war may have been trumped up, based on lies and planned prior to 9/11 but because of the “national emergency” Bush will be forgiven. Its all been theater to introduce more coercion into the American social fabric and its mind boggling how dishonest and cynical this power grab is as it appears to be going down.
And we already know for a fact they have the the requests/assurances from the Bush Administration. There is no dispute about that. This isn’t kabuki, it is flat out asinine and insulting to the intelligence of human beings. Really, I am serious, why not just give them the immunity if this is what you are going to do? It is the exact same thing.
The lesson I am learning — we had better be prepared to try and use their tactics in the 111th (and maybe 112th) Congress(es) to get all this legislation repealed. If the Congress has the power to act as a judicial body and simply immunize illegal conduct retroactively, then it sure as hell has the power to remove such immunity retroactively, as well. I mean, if they get to fuck the Constitution, we can surely use their fucking tactics to un-fuck the document, right?
BTW, anyone know what the statute of limitations are on the criminal penalties imposed by FISA on executive branch officials?
Statute is five years from the date of the offense. Most of the serious offenses will be getting close to an expired statute by the time the Obama Administration could do a full investigation and file charges; even if they were so inclined (which I am not sure of). so, time is of the essence here. But really, it is the almost final erosion of the 4th Amendment that bothers me. That will plague us and our children from now forward.
As to the efforts we better learn to take in the future, the only problem with that is that the other side are anot a bunch of limp dicks like our guys are; they will fight and obstruct that till the cows come home and very effectively too. Their track record is VERY impressive in that regard. We might reclaim a little of this ground later on, but a whole lot will be just gone.
Statute of limitations on war crimes?
No statute on the highest level war crimes, not sure about others that are lower level. My answer above was specifically as to FISA crimes.
Thanks for the info. I am depressed and pissed right now, but optimistic for the long run to undo *most* of the damage. Vigilance is key, and will have to be. The coalition being put together by Glenn et al will hopefully help serve this function.
Re: the other side not being limp dicks (merely pricks), that’s true. But a washout of historical proportions this fall might just get some of them to change their tune. We’ll see, I guess.
Maybe calling the torture hearings “kabuki” is giving the players to much credit, but this is where rOTL is right. Instability, chaos and unpredictability precede a state shift or paradigm shift if you will. The dissonance between progress made in shedding light on the depravity of torture in the context of this attack on individual rights is irrational, but this phase of chaotic influences could very well be the precursor of tremendous change. I too want to hold on the familiar structures of individual liberty but change has an inevitability and momentum that often is uncontrollable.
Stepping out of the partisan box as it appears Glenn is leading many into, will definitely raise a lot of eyebrows.
We have to do something new, no matter what happens this week.
Hey I gave.
Me too..)
You said that nightmare so nicely. You do express the vison I am seeing. What is interesting as long as no one defines what is happening they walk with our treasury. So American are living in a dream reality not knowing and so not or wanting to.
“mind boggling” indeed. Twisted and immoral too
bmaz, Ishmael — Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I look forward to further consideration of the issues involved in court challenges to the new FISA revisions. Should we get them. Whatever they may consist of.
Time to consider taking up a substance addiction of some kind…
ReaderOTL, thanks for this:
Hope. Someone ought to make a campaign slogan out of it!
Or: Maybe the corps have seen that torture and war crimes are taking Team W and/or Team Dick down very soon now, so they’re putting on whatever blackmail-related thumbscrews they may have on the Congresswraiths to get FISA relief while they still can, with shall we say greatly renewed vigor and enthusiasm. For example, Dodd. (For another very slightly possible example, Russert.)
And not that it is anything special. I am just sayin.
I was just trying to frame a comment on how progressives and libertarians could find a suitable vehicle to integrate without the necessity of 3rd party thinking. More will be revealed I suppose.
Hopefully civil liberties now, is the vehicle.. I cn’t think of a more American less partisan issue than – Don’t tread on me!
Right.
Integrate around the common concern for Constitutional integrity, that would be.
My paper an ex-knight Rider bought by McClatchy did not use the word torture instead they described the War Councils opine on military prisons. Its about locking people up and giving them a daily dose of torture that lasts 24/7
If McClatchy Co. who is running a torture series doesn’t put it put to their chain? it is a non issue unless the Impeachment (of off the table) hearings expose it on cspan and force MSM to bring it out. Maybe we are considered a cult?
Still the FISA compromise plays right into Cheney’s hand. The noose on the public’s neck is that much tighter if a national emergency should arise between now and Jan. 2009.
And Congress gave him powers last fall to declare an emergency and take away liberties like his cronies have done in South America the last three decades with juntas. A Bushco Junta? Doubtful but alarming to gove away such power to a chimp.
Heh. Did you know that Blackwater is now buying combat fighter planes? This one, a fairly lethal little plane actually. So, lets hope that little scenario doesn’t play out.
I am not sure a chimp could pull off a junta in a banana republic–too many distractions.
Hey, bomb Iran (or perhaps Pakistan) and oil goes up another 100 bucks.. Lots and lots of cars will be abandoned on the side of the road.. Even if it’s temporary, Bush and Cheney will be long gone before our current Dems wake up enough to do something. (Assuming they would do something)
Oh, and by the by, as to why we went to Iraq, perhaps we are starting to “get our due” as Dick Cheney would say. From the New York Times:
.
Well, there you go. It’s handy for:
What do you want? Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes?
Was that the military plane that downed some reporters in Chile last year?
No clue. Not familiar with said incident. It is mostly more just kind of interesting than a worry at this point; assuming they only have one. There is some long term concern over the government using private contractors for domestic security operations; for instance like in Katrina type situations etc. would not want to have too many of these little puppies in their squadron in that event.
Why doesn’t Congress haul Gen Tagubu’s ass up to the Hill for a
chit-chatter?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/41514.html
Because their policy on torture is “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Just to add one more observation about my call to Congressman Capuano (MA-08). Recall that he’s been a leader on the floor fight against immunity in the house, but when I called yesterday, the office said they had not read the Hoyer bill, and basically spewed “the party line” about why it might pass. I observed that if Capuano’s office is just rolling over then there’s not a lot of hope.
What I wanted to add is that Capuano was Murtha’s floor whip in the campaign for the Majority Leader’s position, and having talked to that office in the past, they Hate-with-a-capital-H Hoyer. So if they’ve already received marching orders and they’re rolling over, as selise noted, it’s coming from the Speaker’s Office.
In addition contacting Congress Critters and senators, also contact your Congressional district Democratic Campaign Office. Do this, especially if you are already a volunteer there. Make them aware that the level of your future enthusiasm for that work will be directly impacted by what the House Democratic leadership does within the next few days. Ask/tell them to please forward your sentiments up the food chain to the state and national party offices.
After all, what is the point of working for a Democratic majority if the party won’t stand up for the basic Constitutional principles that they have sworn to protect and defend?
In addition to contacting . . . .
(Even “Preview” doesn’t help when their is insufficient caffeine in the system.
I just had a long conversation with my congressman’s scheduler—who knows me by now as does my congressman. He and I have a scheduled face to face meeting in a couple of weeks and I told his nice young lady who keeps him on track how important this is to me and to all of the base activists to the tune of raising such big $$ to fight Steny in 24 hours. I think she got the point and as I asked her to will pass the word on to Joe.
This is all so freaking crazy!!!!!
Democrats in Congress don’t seem to understand one thing: with the DOJ already in trouble for prosecuting Democrats and firing attorneys who don’t think that’s a good idea, with this law passed, there will be no court oversight and Bush and Co will be able to legally wiretap any Democrat they feel like. Basically, it’s legalizing what Nixon was caught doing. Am I wrong about this?
I wrote my Congressman, Kagen WI-08. Here’s his response. It’s pretty generic, but he’s voted against immunity every time…
Cannot help but wonder whether the terms of the compromise Hoyer’s pushing — for which I can’t yet find any information suggesting that the broader membership of Congress has seen and read — does not offer immunity to telcos alone, but to others who may have seen/heard/read anything that makes them complicit in war crimes.
Why are the titular leaders rolling over on this? They’re surely aware by now we are furious about this. Unless they have a vested interest in this “agreement”; who exactly is agreeing to this compromise anyhow?
Not being a lawyer, I’d also like some sort of review as to how Congress can extend any retroactive immunity for a crime against the people, particularly since the crime itself isn’t something codified in more recent U.S. law but within the Constitution itself? Is this all one big show betting on another Boumdedienne decision at a later date, after they’ve made their getaway?
Damn. I need to go back to bed. I can’t type, spell or compose anything right now. Sorry.
I wonder that myself. I doubt it–Dems aren’t that smart, and McJoan and I seem to be the only people saying that if you apply Boumediene to FISA, then this bill is unconstitutional. But by putting review in a District Court, it might just open the possibility of Constitutional challenge. And with Article III fed up as it is…
OT: Kabuki question for EW: The White House still doesn’t want to release the transcripts of Bush and Cheney’s interview with Fitz, citing…well, I can’t really understand what they’re arguing, to be honest. Here’s my question: Aren’t those transcripts already in possession of convicted felon Scooter Libby? He would have had to have gotten them in discovery, wouldn’t he? Especially since his lawyers were claiming they’d call Cheney to testify. So is the White House really saying that it handed over transcripts to a now-convicted-felon, but it won’t hand them over to Congress?
I don’t know if it’s true but I thought Mrs. Scooter said “we are going to fuck them”.
Calling Mrs. Scooter
Didn’t she say that before the commutation?
In which case she’s gotten what she wanted.
I’m actually not sure. There was a weird exchange in the May 5, 2006 hearing that makes me wonder that myself. IIRC, Fitz avoided turning over these reports (LHP corrected me the other day–they’re not transcripts) within the discussion of the NIE by saying he didn’t contest that the NIE was declassified at some point, it’s jsut not clear when.
OT: Scott Horton has a new article up about potential war crimes trials (in TNR of all places).
Thanks for the heads up on Horton article, WO.
FDL site including ew a bit on the wonky side this a.m., or is it my end…
It’s not just you, Marie.
The WSJ announces a compromise has been reached and there will be a vote tommorrow..WSJ
NowThe Hill.
It’s almost as if Hoyer wants Obama to lose in 2008. Why is he playing into the Republicans game?
So can they put a hold on this vote tomorrow? Interesting happenning on the day McClellan comes to testify
So why Friday Steny?
Hey all, just had a fifteen minute phone call with Obama’s headquarters. They stated he will continue to stand against retroactive immunity, etc and continue consistent in his stance. Theer was an indication he will address this but it may not come until after the House votes. I suggest ALL call ASAP and encourage a comment before the House vote. (866)675-2008
Lots. Of. Calls. ASAP.
Sorry for the typos above. Typing too fast and did not proofread. But you get the idea…Obama not for retroactive immunity or for the compromise. As I understand it…
Bmaz,
How right you are. I spoke to Debbie Wasserman Shultz about FISA at a fundraiser for Gary Peters in Bloomfield Hills a few weeks ago and she said the dems have to compromise on FISA or else the Republicans will use it against them, calling us weak on terrorism in the election. These people are so craven, and they never learn and they don’t seem to understand that their duty is to defend the Constitution and the law. I mentioned that they would probably gain politically as well by standing up for what is right, but she didn’t seem to think that would help.
”Obama not for retroactive immunity…” But is he against it? How much?