CIA And Bushco Have A Rather Large Criminal Obstruction Problem: The Torture Tapes Come Home To Roost

By now, the story of the CIA’s destruction of the "torture tapes" is well known. Although the problems with the CIA, and every other portion of the Bush Administration, maintaining custody and control of evidentiary video and audio tapes is literally almost a running bad joke, the capstone revelation came with a December 6, 2007 New York Times article by Mark Mazzetti. Mazzetti’s article detailed the willful destruction by the CIA of videotapes directly exhibiting the use by US Agents of "extreme interrogation techniques" on detainees Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

To refresh your recollection of the entire sequence of events on the Torture Tapes, here is a remarkably complete timeline. For the instant consideration, the critical event is the evidence supplied to date by the Bush Administration, and most significantly the CIA, on their rationale for the destruction of the Zubaydah and al-Nashiri tapes. The initial statement of the position and defense of the CIA is contained in CIA Director Michael Hayden’s message to the body of his agency, which indicates:

…CIA videotaped interrogations, and destroyed the tapes in 2005. I understand that the Agency did so only after it was determined they were no longer of intelligence value and not relevant to any internal, legislative, or judicial inquiries–including the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.

The official position has been further refined by testimony of CIA Acting General Counsel John Rizzo and the pseudo-proffer of Jose Rodriquez via his attorney Bob Bennett. We also know that, at a minimum, four White House lawyers were involved in discussion of the proposed destruction of the tapes. The most recent evidence of the government’s position is contained in sworn statements by CIA officials made in mid-April in the Rashid Abdullah case, again positing nothing but good faith and lack of knowledge of any compelling reason to preserve the tapes.

However, yesterday, an insufficiently noticed page A-16 story by Dan Eggen in the Washington Post, appears to put the lie to the defenses the Administration has posited to date and raise serious issues in relation to intentional, malicious destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice. The Post article relates information gleaned from recent CIA/Administration filings in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed last June. From the Post:

The CIA concluded that criminal, administrative or civil investigations stemming from harsh interrogation tactics were "virtually inevitable," leading the agency to seek legal support from the Justice Department, according to a CIA official’s statement in court documents filed yesterday.

The CIA said it had identified more than 7,000 pages of classified memos, e-mails and other records relating to its secret prison and interrogation program, but maintained that the materials cannot be released because they relate to, in part, communications between CIA and Justice Department attorneys or discussions with the White House.

Well, that’s interesting. It turns out that the CIA and the Bush Justice Department, the vaunted OLC no less, knew full well that the tapes were directly and specifically material and germane to "inevitable criminal, administrative or civil investigations". Oops, now that is a little different than the initial stories pitched by the Administration isn’t it? And exactly how specific and deep was the knowledge of the critical materiality of the Torture Tapes? Again, from Eggen:

The documents indicate that lawyers at the CIA and elsewhere were aware that CIA personnel might be subject to criminal prosecution or other legal sanctions.

The records submitted to the court list and briefly describe dozens of communications between the CIA and the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, or OLC. At least 10 were in 2004, five were in 2005, and seven were in 2006; virtually all were classified "top secret" or even more restricted.

"The CIA’s purpose in requesting advice from OLC was the very likely prospect of criminal, civil, or administrative litigation against the CIA and CIA personnel who participate in the Program," said a declaration from Ralph S. DiMaio, information review officer for the CIA’s clandestine service. He added that the CIA considered such proceedings "to be virtually inevitable." (Emphasis added).

It appears as if the new declarations in the FOIA lawsuit pretty much obliterate any Bush Administration pretensions of good faith belief that there was no reasonable materiality, nor potential evidentiary value, in the Torture Tapes. Correspondingly, the new declarations almost completely solidify allegations of a plethora of substantial crimes including obstruction of justice, obstruction of Congressional process, false statements to Congress, false material statements to multiple Federal courts, destruction of evidence of a governmental crime, conspiracy and, of course, torture/war crimes. I suspect we will be discussing the specific circumstances and elements of the individual crimes quite soon.

And to think, CIA Director General Michael Hayden, he of all the exculpatory lip service from the outset about no evidentiary value of the tapes, has just announced his formal retirement from the Air Force for "practical considerations related to military retirement." I’ll bet. The move appears to almost double his salary because now he can collect both his retirement pension, which will now be locked in (in case, you know, anything bad happens), and a civilian salary for his position. Will more sudden "personal employment considerations" be taken by additional Administration officials?

For anybody paying attention, the "Snowball" of Bush Administration culpability has been gathering both mass and momentum in it’s downhill run for quite some time now. In any rational and legitimate period of American democracy, the snowball would have overwhelmed Nancy Pelosi’s barren, empty table; but not in this day and age of derelict Democratic House Leadership. No, the current House Leadersheep have the mistaken notion that their oath to office demands that they protect the most corrupt and criminal Presidential Administration in history, instead of the Constitution of the United States of America. They are wrong; the sole demand of their oath of office is to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States".

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66 replies
  1. 4jkb4ia says:

    I don’t see where there is a specific reference to the materiality of the torture tapes in this story. I think that the article is talking about the CIA trying to get legal justification for the techniques it was using similar to the Yoo memo. I can see that the correspondence with OLC was after the tapes were destroyed but I am not sure that’s enough.

    Detroit 105, Philadelphia 88
    Boston 96, Atlanta 77
    LAL 122, Denver 107
    (I made sure to look these things up before posting)

    • bmaz says:

      …communications between the CIA and the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, or OLC. At least 10 were in 2004, five were in 2005…

      As the destruction of the tapes is believed to be in November 2005, there is a clearly a boatload of formal communication with OLC prior to the destruction. Materiality is my word, but i think that is pretty close to a given once they admit conscious knowledge of the inevitablility “of criminal, civil, or administrative litigation against the CIA and CIA personnel who participate in the Program”.

  2. wavpeac says:

    Humanity, not just the united states, needs these crimes exposed and punished. If absolute good exists, if love matters, if compassion has a snow balls chance in hell of being a value that evolves the human race, consequences will come.

  3. MarieRoget says:

    Lakers wipe the floor w/Denver in the 4th. Good times, & Bryant was a phenom.. Fischer wasn’t too damn bad either. Now I really have to stop reading FDL & get off to work.

    Bmaz, great post, as always. Read you all later today.

    • bmaz says:

      Ooh, excellent. Thanks. I had issues with PACER last night and couldn’t download, and was going to see if I could rustle them up for free this morning before hassling with PACER. THANKS!

    • MadDog says:

      Ta for the links!

      And as to the CIA’s knowledge before the destruction of the Torture Tapes in November 2005, even the CIA’s non-response response to the Amnesty International’s FOIA request is most telling (from DOC 5 in the PDF):

      Document Description: This is a two-page memorandum from the CIA Inspector General to the Director of Central Intelligence making a statutorily-required report. The memorandum contains facts and analysis and discuss the reporting obligations of the Inspector General and the Director of Central Intelligence. The document is dated February 17, 2005 and bears the classification SECRET//SCI.

      (Bold Italic mine)

      If I remember correctly, one of the laws that the CIA (and others) have to follow, is that they must report instances of Federal law-breaking to the DOJ or be subject to criminal penalties.

      That CIA Inspector General statutorily-required report sure sounds like a “We done seen the crimes and we are hereby reporting them”.

      Now I wonder if the CIA Inspector General has another statutorily-required report after November 2005 that describes the illegal destruction of the Torture Tapes.

      And one might wonder where such a report, if it exists as it should, found a home.

  4. Bushie says:

    According to professional interrogators and based on history, “aggressive interrogation techniques” yield what the interrogator want as opposed to the truth. The military, and I would assume intelligence services, school their trainees about the Geneva conventions on torture and the military the effect and consequences of breaking the UCMJ. That the CIA and DIA, et al. used aggressive interrogation techniques after such training indicates simply, to me at least, they wanted to torture people and with fig leaf orders and legal opinions, did so. That Addington and his gang asked to witness these techniques say a lot about the character of those currently running our country. An equally disturbing aspect of the capture and rendition by the Intel community is the presumption of guilt. Once targeted, the suspect is de facto guilty, and is treated as such until by some miracle is shown to be innocent, dies or continues to be detained indefinitely.

  5. skdadl says:

    bmaz, is Hayden vulnerable over anything more than that “exculpatory lip service”? Given that he didn’t take on the job until May 2006, he could plead ignorance, yes/no? Bear of very fuzzy brain here trying to put things together through timeline …

    • bmaz says:

      Well, that is a decent question; but I think he has some problems because he was all over the place shilling the Company line that they had done exhaustive research and found absolutely no indicia of possible evidentiary value. As I tried to argue in the post, at first blush anyway, it sure now seems confirmed that that was a pile of dishonest bunk; and that is the potential value of these filings, sworn evidence as opposed to logical assumption. That is my hope anyway.

  6. radiofreewill says:

    All-righty-then, CIA ‘knew’ that Criminal Investigation of the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques was ‘inevitable.’

    They kept approximately 7,000 records of Materially Relevant Evidence.

    What that suggests is that the CIA catalogued the Full Scope of the Enhanced Interrogation Effort – from inception to current day – and has a ‘complete’ self-referencing, internally sound, auditable history of ‘how we got to where we are?’

    IOW, this Collection of Documents likely demonstrates that CIA asked for ‘bright, clear lines’ whenever issues of ‘crossing legal boundaries’ were approached – and, more than likely, it shows specifically Who Authorized Any Departures from Established Law.

    So, one would assume that the 7,000 Documents amply demonstrate that CIA was ‘pushed’ across every legal line they crossed by Bush, using Yoo/Bradbury/Addington as his ‘Authority’ stick.

    So,

    – the 7,000 Documents likely exonerate CIA Rank and File (as they were intended to do by design)
    – the 7,000 Documents likely make it Crystal Clear Who Authorized Departures from Standing Law
    – the Torture Tapes were likely Ordered Destroyed by Those Who Authorized Departures from Standing Law

    The effect of the Eggen article is to ‘block’ any NSC Principals’ ‘blow-back’ on the Agency for Destruction of the Torture Tapes (ie – Condi wont’t be able to say “It was their baby, they did it!”) There are now 7,000 pages of contemporaneous notes that She’ll have to refute, first.

    At this point, the Nexus of Illegal Authorization for War Crimes is Very Narrowly Focused down to either some, or all, of the NSC Principals were ‘in on’ the Torture AND wanting the Torture Tapes Destroyed.

    Imvho, Obstruction at this Level of Government, of Evidence of Likely (’inevitable’) War Crimes – Approved By Bush – amongst the National Security Council – screams for an Impeachment Inquiry!

    Wrt fmr-Gen. Hayden, I’m still giving him the benefit of the doubt – in a ‘bad’ chain of command, it requires the utmost skill for good Officers to ‘complete the mission And protect the troops.’ I became a fan of Hayden’s (provisionally) when he blocked Helgerson from throwing the rank-and-file CIA into the frying pan over Enhanced Interrogation – imvho, that was a gutsy call and the ‘right’ thing to do. Now, after some storyline development, it looks much more likely that the Rank and File will Retain Their Humanity in the face of Bush’s “Everybody on My Team has to get Dirty” style.

    However, if Mikey turns out to be a full-on Kool-Aid Drinking Ideologue who can’t tell an Empty Warehouse from a Nuclear Reactor, then I might have to reconsider my support…

    • JTMinIA says:

      I, too, would have given Hayden the “benefit of the doubt,” but not after the Meet the Press interview on Basra. When he (like Patraeus and Crocker) said it was all a complete surprise, as well as Iraqi planned and executed, I knew that he was one of Darth’s people.

      Patraeus got CentCom; Hayden got his new double salary. What did Crocker get, anyway? (Or was his performance so bad that no rewards for lying to congress were warranted?) Sorry … a bit OT.

  7. emptywheel says:

    You know one thought about yesterday’s update on the HPSCI investigation.

    SSCI is doing an investigation too. Though they haven’t called witnesses yet because they’ve got a heap of documents to read first.

    I wonder how many of these 7000 they have???

  8. rapt says:

    What say we impeach Ms Impeachment-is-off-the-Table for failure to honor her oath as a legislator, aiding & abetting a crime syndicate, and complicity before, during and after the fact?

    Great post bmaz

    • sojourner says:

      As most company employees anywhere have to do these days, I just took a refresher course in company ethics. The basis of this particular training was along the lines of “I didn’t do anything.” A number of scenarios were presented showing what inaction could cause, particularly when something does not seem right.

      Of course, ethics is all fine and dandy for the rank and file… If you are in public office, the standard is to not do anything so that you can go along and get along. It does not matter that the country goes down the tubes, though.

      Slight OT, but did anyone else hear on the news (GMA, I think) this morning that Jeb Bush is being bandied as a possible VP nominee for McCain? Maybe it is time to begin praying…

      • bmaz says:

        Heh, the value of being “the smart Bush” is pretty nominal these days. Of course what with his “investment success” in the big shitpile on behalf of the State of Florida, he should fit right in with McCain’s economic plan.

      • JohnJ says:

        From someone stuck in this third world state of Florida:

        No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No f*&k no to Jeb. He’s worse than chimpy (smarter and more ruthless).

        And you can quote me on that opinion.

  9. MadDog says:

    And more goodies from the CIA’s non-response response to the Amnesty International’s FOIA request (DOC 18 in the PDF):

    From/To: From the CIA Inspector General to the Directoir of Central Intelligence

    Subject: Reporting

    Document Description: This eight-page document consists of a two cover sheets indicating the classification of the attached documents, a one-page internal CIA routing slip, a two-page memorandum from the CIA Inspector General to the Director of Central Intelligence, a two-page letter to the Department of Justice from the CIA Inspector General, and a one-page distribution slip. The memorandum and letter present facts and analysis regarding the Inspector General’s review of a particular event. The document is dated October 27, 2004 and bears the classification TOP SECRET//SCI.

    (Bold Italic mine)

    Another instance of a statutorily-required report regarding a Federal crime?

    EW, you’re the best in timelines!

    What was happening prior to October 27, 2004? Wasn’t one or more of the top Al Qaeda recently captured? And then waterboarded?

    • MadDog says:

      Oh, and I forgot to include this little gem in my comment # 18:

      Moreover, this document refers to information pertaining to an ongoing criminal investigation by a federal law enforcement agency. As the information contained in the document is still the subject of pending law enforcement investigation, and the release of this information could reasonably be expected to interfere with that investigation, that portion of the document is further withheld pursuant to exemption b(7)(a).

    • MadDog says:

      And more goodies related to that “DOC 18″ I referred to in my comment at # 18 from the CIA’s non-response response to the Amnesty International’s FOIA request (DOC 18 in the PDF).

      This is from the Center for Constitutional Rights page with a ton of the released CIA FOIA PDFs.

      Specifically, this is from the declaration of Dione J. Stearns, an Attorney Advisor in the Department of Justice currently assigned to the Executive Office for United States Attorneys (”EOUSA”), Freedom of Information and Privacy Staff (the “FOIA/Privacy Staff”):

      Document no. 18 is an eight-page document, which includes a classified two-page letter that originated with the CIA. This declaration only addresses the two-page letter within document no. 18 and does not address the remaining six pages of the document. The letter is undated and is addressed to the Chief of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Virginia Criminal Division from an employee of the CIA’S Office of Inspector General discussing possible violations of federal law by the subject of an ongoing criminal investigation. The CIA provided a copy of this document to Assistant United States Attorney (”AUSA”) Neil Hamrnerstrom, the Chief of the Terrorism and National Security Unit of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Virginia. AUSA Hammerstrom reviewed the letter and informed me that the subject of the letter remains the subject of a pending criminal investigation by the United States Attorney’s Office and that the release of information from that letter could reasonably be expected to interfere with that Office’s investigation.

        • MadDog says:

          DOC 18’s date is October 27, 2004, and it is now almost 3 1/2 years later.

          Sure takes those DOJ folks a l-o-n-g, l-o-n-g time to figure out how/if to prosecute someone.

          Do I hear a “running out the clock” rejoinder?

        • MadDog says:

          And of course, more goodies. This is from the Center for Constitutional Rights page.

          Specifically, it is from the declaration of Phillip J. McGuire, Director of the United States Army Crime Records Center (the “USACRC”), U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command (the “CID”)…

          …4. The CIA sought consultation from CID with respect to a document referred to in the CIA’s motion for summary judgement as document no. 249. Document no. 249 originated with the CID, but I understand that the CIA located the document in its files while processing Plaintiffs’ FOIA requests.

          5. Document no. 249 is an Initial Serious Sensitive Incident Report related to an allegation of detainee abuse, reported on August 12, 2004. The abuse was allegedly committed by Central Intelligence Agency personnel. The document was created by a CID Agent and describes the allegations in general terms and provides the status of the investigation.

          (Bold Italic mine)

          And this part is “cute”:

          …11. CID has additionally redacted the personal identifying informatio of the alleged detainee, including the detainee’s name, date of birth and address. Disclosure of the personal identifying information of a detainee alleging abuse could reasonably be expected to, and would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy because inter alia, it would expose the individual to public scrutiny as both a detainee and as a victem of alleged abuse

          (Bold Italic mine again)

        • jdmckay says:

          5. Document no. 249 is an Initial Serious Sensitive Incident Report related to an allegation of detainee abuse, reported on August 12, 2004. The abuse was allegedly committed by Central Intelligence Agency personnel. The document was created by a CID Agent and describes the allegations in general terms and provides the status of the investigation.

          But “we don’t torture”, right?

          I’ve been following all this here, especially as it’s heated up since
          release of Yoo memos… but not a single word in Albuquerque’s “paper of
          record”: ABQ Journal. Not a single word.

          The Journal does opine, however, railing against Soros for making $$ betting against the “shitpile” … which is the most attention this paper’s given to heart of mortgage bond collapse (Samuelson’s articles about it).

          Oh well, at least I can take solace knowing Doogie Feith… “took an extremely strongly pro-Geneva Convention position in the Pentagon.”

          I feel like I’m living in a fucking 3 ring circus.

  10. WilliamOckham says:

    bmaz says:

    For the instant consideration

    Methinks your inner lawyer is showing…

    I’ll be back later with substantive comment.

    • bmaz says:

      Heh heh; man, you are nailing me left and right. There is actually a story there. I am a flat out lousy and slow typist. Back when I did a ton of legal pleading, I had both a pocket-micro and desk Lanier dictaphone and an absolutely awesome battleaxe secretary. Could really crank stuff out, and she was so good that the first take was usually dead on. Well, this damn blogging stuff has been testing my skills and sanity as a typist since I delved into it. So a brand new dictation program just came out for Mac called MacSpeech Dictate, based on Dragon Naturally Speaking for PC by Nuance that has been around for a couple of years and is state of the art. I have been test driving it off and on, and some of my deep rooted legalisms have resurfaced that didn’t usually make it to the page with manual entry. So, there you go….

  11. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Destruction of evidence they knew was a crime, with specific penalties of imprisonment and the inevitable loss of the passkey known inside the Beltway as a “security clearance”. Which means, as often said here before, that whatever they destroyed pertained to significantly more serious crimes regarding their own behavior and that of the topmost leaders of their government.

    Libby’s case is a classic example: fall on the dagger, it might miss anything essential, especially if “falling” means “stepping on”, lest delay requires falling on the boss’ sword, which won’t miss a thing.

    Offices virtually stand still when it comes time to betting on basketball, football or baseball play-offs. What’s the betting on who Bush will pardon, when and why? No bets on whether the GOP will take a political hit for them. Lost money. Who knows of leading candidates to replace the 96 odd USA’s, especially in DC, EDVA and SDNY. They are likely to be busy. Ooops, should also add all of California and Texas, where many of the usual suspects will seek refuge.

    • JTMinIA says:

      For a while I’ve been predicting the following (and being at laughed at for making the prediction, so feel free to join in): Bush will pardon an incredible number of people, including Cheney, between the election and the beginning of January. He will then resign, so that Cheney can pardon him.

      In other words, when most people say that they are looking forward to the “next president,” I don’t think they’re really going to like who it is.

      • JohnForde says:

        I’ve been thinking about that too. There has never been a SCOTUS imposed limit on Presidential pardons. But you’d have to think SCOTUS might invalidate a pardon if it involved a blatant criminal conspiracy directly involving POTUS.

      • bmaz says:

        I am conflicted on what, if any, pardons will come and think the pardon brackets/pool that Marcy has indicated is in store should be a lot of fun. Quite frankly, I don’t fear what you suggest in the least though. It would really take a lot of people aback and open a lot of eyes as to how bad all this has truly been; and for a variety of reasons I have stated before, I don’t think there will be any significant criminal prosecutions anyway, and that is all a pardon eliminates. In a way, it could really set the stage for the final moral death blow to them if they do mass pardon. Bring it on.

        • JTMinIA says:

          The only argument that has ever made me pause in my prediction is this: a pardon does nothing WRT to international prosecution for (e.g.) war crimes. But even this does not stop me. I still believe that there will be mass pardons followed by resignation and a pardon for Bush. I know that Bush cares about his legacy, but I also think that, deep down (but not buried) is a fear of prosecution. This is why I have often asked people (on this site and others) if they think that any of the Bush Administration is afraid. The idea that they might have some fear in the only way that I can sympathize with them at all. And sometimes, for strange reasons, it makes me feel better to think of them as humans.

  12. maryo2 says:

    Reading the Senate Reservations to Geneva on Torture yesterday (”oranges”, I think they’re called, or maybe “apples”, I’m not quite sure), I noticed that they read like a list of things AddiYoo had to over-come in his OLC memos. One of the things is the definition of mental pain. To be mental pain it has to leave lasting harm; drugs can be applied as long as they don’t leave lasting harm; threats of death a person or to someone nearby that cause lasting anguish are a no no, …

    I think the videos show that Abu Zubaydah met the US accepted definition of mental pain. The videos show that Ashcrofts “read the Senate reservations” defense will not hold up.

    • bmaz says:

      There are two things that you can pretty much go all in on and bet the farm in relation to the destroyed tapes of Zubaydah and al-Nashiri. One, they exhibit flat out torture by anybody’s definition; and two, they do not exhibit any usable, actionable or credible evidence produced by the torture. That is why they were destroyed.

      • klynn says:

        Let’s remember that they are the Senate reservations only…

        What honest purpose can they really hold when we signed the Geneva Conventions in 1949?

        bmaz, as to your comment…spot on.

        • bmaz says:

          Well, there is a difference between the Geneva common Articles and Conventions and the UN centric Torture conventions, which I believe were adopted with the aforestated reservations in 1989 or so, and since the Senate is the sole body on treaties etc., those are the official position of the US.

        • george7 says:

          Obviously, no “honest purpose.”

          According to Alfred McCoy in A Question of Torture, the reservations were (surreptiously) meant to exempt existing CIA interrogation methods from international law. These were methods like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation and stress positions that leave no marks or scars. In other words, the ones known as The Program today. McCoy argues that they have a long history in the postwar era.

          Whether the Senate reservations can validly make these exemptions is another matter. But perhaps Ashcroft is well-schooled, after all, in what those reservations were intended to do.

  13. maryo2 says:

    One more thing about the Senate Reservations – they say that state officials cannot be held accountable for things that happened prior to their involvement. I think (IANAL) that that means that Yoo cannot be held to account for torture that occurred before his memos.

  14. Neil says:

    Oyez, oyez, oyez!

    In any rational and legitimate period of American democracy, the snowball would have overwhelmed Nancy Pelosi’s barren, empty table; but not in this day and age of derelict Democratic House Leadership. No, the current House Leadersheep have the mistaken notion that their oath to office demands that they protect the most corrupt and criminal Presidential Administration in history, instead of the Constitution of the United States of America. They are wrong; the sole demand of their oath of office is to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States”.

  15. Mary says:

    Great post and it goes to my first thought when I read the Eggen story.

    So now you have complaints going back to Jan 2002 from GITMO CITF crews about interrogation tactics. You have the Higazy US interrogation flagged for likely lawsuits. You have in Jan 2002 WH counsel discussion in a memo the likelihoods of litigation against the Executive Branch, particularly under the War Crimes Act. You have Mueller telling Congress that back in 2002 he (Mueller) was telling other agencies about the possible criminality of their behavior and he (Mueller) was advising FBI agent to not get involved in the criminal behavior.
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi…..o.php#more

    You have Mora and Navy CIS warning their people not to get involved in the illegal interrogations on the military front. Also on the military front, you have Fallon and CITG warning of the illegal behaviour. You have Padilla’s lawyer raising interrogation/questioning issues for the sources for his warrant right off the bat. You have FBI agents threatening to arrest interrogators.

    And now we have an declaration on behalf of the CIA saying that it was asking for OLC input because “the very likely prospect of criminal, civil, or administrative litigation against the CIA and CIA personnel who participate in the Program”

    With all of that – COUPLED with the ACTUAL filing of lawsuits (Arar’s was pending when Clement asserted to the Sup Ct that the US doesn’t do “things like” torture or torture) WHERE ARE THE LIT HOLDS?

    Not one lawyer of the many involved put out a lit hold?

  16. Mary says:

    And a disbarring offense if you don’t.

    Only apparenlty not so literally.

    Do you ever wonder if, post Hamdan and pre-MCA, Hayden’s participation in the CIA programs wasn’t subject to court martial? Oh well – real work.

  17. earlofhuntingdon says:

    ”Reply” button seems not to work. In response to #26:

    Who would bring the case and how. Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia certainly would not approve a limit on pardons. By definition, they forgive all federal criminal sins and the authority is not limited in the text of the Constitution.

    Arguably, the pardon power was clearly meant as a presidential power to correct injustices in the criminal justice system, at least, or to excuse other’s federal criminal sins, at most. It was not intended to excuse a sitting president’s He is assumed to blameless; if not, he’s been rebuked or thrown from office via the impeachment/trial/removal process.

    The latter, of course, Congress currently considers broken tool. That’s thanks to GOP party loyalty being held to exceed loyalty to the Constitution, to Vichy Democrats, and to the self-imposed perception that impeachment’s abuse during the Clinton saga has rendered it impracticable to use. (A claim I find absurd.) In any case, the political will to use does not exist.

    The sleight-of-hand of Bush resigning (intentionally, but presumably under cover of a health ailment or some such thing), with the automatic assumption of the office by Cheney – making him queen for a day, so to speak – would be widely reviled. But it would be long past before the S.Ct. could deal with the ignominy. Would it take up the issue in the context of a criminal proceeding against Bush, in which he argued the absolute defense of a ”presidential pardon”? I just don’t think the S.Ct. would do it.

    The question is what will make Bush/Cheney frightened enough before leaving office that they would try that Constitution eviscerating ploy?

  18. MadDog says:

    And did you know:

    …Because CIA’s records are decentralized and compartmented, each component must then devise its own search strategy, which includes identifying which of its records systems to search as well as what search tools, indices, and terms to employ.

    (Bold Italic mine)

    So in the CIA’s answer to that age-old question “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who guards the guardians?)”, the response is apparently “No-fookin’-body!”

    Shorter CIA Search Methodology: “Don’t ask, it won’t tell!”

    Must’ve been where David Addington, former assistant general counsel for the Central Intelligence Agency, and now Dick Cheney’s Cheney learned his search methodology.

    • bmaz says:

      And did you know:

      …Because CIA’s records are decentralized and compartmented, each component must then devise its own search strategy, which includes identifying which of its records systems to search as well as what search tools, indices, and terms to employ.

      Oooh, this sounds really hard. Gosh Bush Gomers, I don’t know dick about computers and their codes or whatever; but I am plenty edified enough from the Jethro Bodine School of Digitology to come over and solve that little problem for you there. Is Monday okay for ya?

      This kind of pure unadulterated horseshit is so idiotically beyond the sublime that our desensitized public and E-TV Norons lap it up like the tail of the Hale-Bopp Comet on the way to Heaven’s Gate. I apologize for the person editing these foul mouthed comments, he has been sacked.

  19. MadDog says:

    And did you know that of the 7000+ CIA documents on “ghost detainees”, “detainee abuse”, and “detainee extraordinary rendition” that were responsive to the FOIA lawsuit, the overwhelming majority resided in the CIA’s Office of Inspector General?

    You know, the place in the CIA where bad stuff done by the CIA is supposed to be investigated?

    …The breakdown of the 12 different categories of documents is as follows: 10 Office of General Counsel Cables; 59 Office of General Counsel Memoranda; 53 Office of General Counsel E-mails; 102 Miscellaneous Office of General Counsel records; 3644 Office of Inspector General Cables; 2534 Office of Inspector General E-mails; 549 Office of Inspector General Reports; 1232 Miscellaneous Office of Inspector General records; 2 Non-OIG Non-OGC Cables; 2 Non-OIG Non-OGC E-mails; 31 Non-OIG Non-OGC Memoranda, and 69 Miscellaneous Non-OIG Non-OGC Records.

    And did you know btw, that by law, the CIA does not have to comply with FOIA requests that have to do with operations?

    Many of the records responsive to Plaintiffs’ FOIA Requests implicate covert operations. Records regarding covert operations are maintained by the NCS,and fall within the “operational file exemption” codified by the CIA Information Act of 1984, 50 U.S.C. § 431. Because NCS operational files are exempt from search under the CIA Information Act, the NCS did not search its operational files for responsive records.

    (Bold Italic mine)

      • MadDog says:

        I totally agree. It may be that the CIA’s OIG is the only part that is FOIA-ble.

        And belaboring the obvious, getting investigated by the CIA’s OIG is tantamount to a bucket of warm spit. No consequences for anything.

  20. FrankProbst says:

    I can’t even understand this using THEIR logic, much less mine. The whole point of torture program is to get the Bad Guys to admit to things, just like they do on “24″. Now they seem to be saying that even though the torture tapes show hours and hours of torture, nobody said anything that qualifies as “evidence”. Huh? Why not? How did you torture the Bad Guys for hours and hours and not get any evidence? Are you saying that torture doesn’t work? Or are you saying that you tortured the wrong people? Or are these just REALLY bad guys, and the reason we don’t see them on “24″ is that you have to torture them for more than 24 hours (the length of a season of the show in “real” time) before they give up their secrets? And even if that’s true, shouldn’t the last tape have had some actual evidence on it?

  21. Mary says:

    47 – that 11 is interesting. I thought an order was entered a long time back requiring the disclosure of detainee names (over the objection based on that same argument of privacy issues), so are they talking about someone whose status as a detainee has not been made public to date?

    • MadDog says:

      47 – that 11 is interesting. I thought an order was entered a long time back requiring the disclosure of detainee names (over the objection based on that same argument of privacy issues), so are they talking about someone whose status as a detainee has not been made public to date?

      It sure reads like a non-disclosed detainee. As well as an unprosecuted bunch of CIA folks.

      And the date of August 2004 means we’re getting close to 4 years with no consequences. Ring any bells?

  22. MadDog says:

    And here again is the CIA saying it straight out:

    139. The CIA’s purpose in requesting advice from OLC was the very likely prospect of criminal, civil, or administrative litigation against the CIA and CIA personnel who participate in the Program. The CIA requested OLC’s legal advice both because the CIA and its personnel anticipated that these issues would continue to be the subject of litigation and, for some of these documents, because the CIA and its personnel had been subject to criminal, civil, or administrative proceedings concerning the Program. This advice was not solicited in the ordinary course of business. Rather, the requests for advice were solicited in order to prepare the CIA to defend against future criminal, civil, and administrative proceedings that the CIA considered to be virtually inevitable.

    (Bold Italic mine)

  23. MadDog says:

    Oh well, continuing on, here’s some more goodies (specifically DOC 97):

    Date of Document: May 2, 2007

    Document Type: Letter

    Classification: SCI, Top Secret

    From/To: From a member of Congress to a non-government entity

    Subject: Request for information

    Document Description: This document is a three page letter requesting information and documents from a non-government entity. The document is dated May 2, 2007 and bears the classification marking TOP/SECRET//SCI.

    This document is withheld in its entirety based on FOIA exemptions (b)(1) and (b)(3).

    Couple questions come to mind:

    1. How in the heck did the CIA’s Office of General Counsel get a copy of this letter which was sent from a Congressperson to a non-government entity?

    2. How does the CIA classify an unclassified Congressional letter to a non-government entity as Top Secret/SCI?

    3. Why is an unclassified Congressional letter classified?

    4. Wonder if Amnesty International, one of the plaintiffs to this FOIA lawsuit, is the non-government entity? Or it could be the International Red Cross as another alternative.

  24. MadDog says:

    And of course, there’s more (specifically DOC 102):

    Document Description: This four-page document consists of a one-page routing slip, a two-page memorandum, and a one-page internal distribution slip. The document is dated September 28, 2005 and bears the classification SECRET. The memorandum is from the CIA Office of General Counsel to the DCIA and provides a declassification recommendation within the context of a particular matter.

    The document is withheld in its entirety…

    …The document is also exempt pursuant to exemption (b)(5). The memorandum contains legal advice from the CIA Office of General Counsel to the DCIA and is therefore withheld pursuant to the attorney-client privilege. It was prepared by attorneys in contemplation of a specific potential criminal prosecution and is therefore also withheld in full pursuant to the attorney work-product privilege…

    (Bold Italic mine)

    Wanna bet that the declassification recommendation was Never?

  25. MadDog says:

    Another (specifically DOC 131) criminal investigation that never saw the “light of day”?

    Date of Document: 9/11/2005

    From/To: Created by a CIA/OIG employee

    Document Description: This two-page document is an Interview Report of an Interview with a CIA employee that was taken during the course of a criminal investigation

    (Bold Italic mine)

    • MadDog says:

      And another (specifically DOC 136):

      Date of Document: 8/21/2005

      From/To: Created by a CIA/OIG employee

      Document Description: This four-page document is an Interview Report of an Interview with a CIA employee that was taken during the course of an OIG criminal investigation

      (Bold Italic mine)

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