Dog N Pony Too
I suspect because of the dynamics of the Committee, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee actually seems to be making progress. So far this hearing, we have established:
- Everyone has had it with this war–Republican and Democrat.
- The biggest threat to the United States from Al Qaeda is in Pakistan and Afghanistan, not in Iraq (as Biden got Crocker, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, to admit).
- Petraeus and Crocker agree with Barbara Boxer and a bunch of other Republican and Democratic Senators–and presumably will go tell Bush as much–that Iraq has got to start paying for its own militias.
- We will never remove the threats of AQI and Iranian influence in Iraq, so the best end point we should strive for is to achieve some kind of stability in Iraq.
There was one moment, when George Voinovich was flogging the fact that we’re broke and therefore will be forced to leave in the near term…
Do you realize that that is where we are today? We are bankrupt and the gravy train to Iraq is coming to an end. Is anyone over there telling the Iraqis this? [thanks to maryo2 for transcribing]
…where both Crocker and Petraeus seemed to realize that they have failed to meet Bush’s goals–to not only sustain Republican support for the escalation, but also to paint the image that we’re winning. As much as anyone, Voiny summed up how bleak things look for us in Iraq.
Now let’s hope we can take today’s accomplishments (and whatever the House can wring out of Bush’s witnesses) and bring this thing to a close.
Wow, this is a stunner. Filing under “Sometimes Bad News is Actually Good News (Over the Long Term)”.
Anyone else having trouble with the cspan link to the pm hearings (online)? It’s not working for me… Anyone have a reliable link?
(Thx in advance.)
I’ve heard both the WaPo and the MSNBC links are consistent. Here’s the WaPo.
Appreciate it. Thx.
Tom Ricks still owes you flowers, IMHO.
Are you going to be the one to tell him? No, seriouly. I happen to think of myself as a connoisseur of liveblogging. And I think he gets it.
Well… hell, why not? I gave “Fiasco” as a gift to my ancient father (who spent much of WWII working on court martials, and regards Cheney as a viper in human form). So I can offer Mr Ricks a compliment when I politely suggestion that he send you flowers.
bmaz @4 – Mrs Peach doesn’t come to mind, but I follow your drift ;-))
EW @7, yeah, I saw that too. High drama!
Maybe there’s home for the
DemsProgressives yet…Yeah, I think Ricks does get it.
Some of us only have time to click through short posts, and he does a pithy job of catching us up when we can pay attention for a few minutes. (Yes, it IS an ADHD world. Sigh.)
Plus, it’s nice to get the highlights and his ‘I watch so you don’t have to…’ honest humor.
Ricks’ reporting seems to parallel yours thematically, and I admit that I’d not expected to see the following titles on WaPo liveblogging posts:
Theme of the Day: We Wish This Was Over, But We Know it Isn’t
GOPlea?
Tougher Day Than Expected for Petraeus
Sometimes bad news is good news in disguise. Seems likely the Nov 2008 elections has focused the attention of some of our more compliant (with BushCo) US Senators. Good to see.
Yoo are definitely very serious EW.
rOTL – Picture the schoolteacher in “Peanuts”, Ms. Peach, and recall her elocution and you will have everything from Ryan Crocker. Mwa mwa mwa…….
Menendez is making some important points in very low key manner–pointing out that Maliki launched his attack on Sadr for electoral reasons. Didn’t make the point that Maliki himself is at least as close to Iran as Sadr, but he at least raised the issue.
Menendez has the stats. This is wonderful: we need a transcript.
Biden is being very effective today–demanded that Crocker either refute Menendez’ stats or they’ll be considered the operative stats.
EW, it’s been Biden who’s inserted “you haven’t answered the question” or “that’s not the question” I’ve heard a couple of times, too, isn’t it?
Both sides of the aisle, I sense an “end of our patience” vibe coming from all of them.
Yes. Biden can often be a blowhard. But he has been very effective today.
Some people are just destined to remain Senators. Now if we can only wean him from the Delaware corporate teet, we’ll all be well-served.
Please tell me that the Admin did not close the deal on getting people to blame the failure of the Surge or Pause or whatever they’re calling it on the Iranians.
IMO, no. Crocker made some attempts–most notably with Menendez. But Menendez pushed back…
Thanks. I think I’ll continue saying prayers, though.
It’s an election year – the Republicans have to pretend to care. Need something to show to the folks at home.
Do these guys ever eat supper? I am so hungry. (Fed the kitties, though.)
Canadians have a lower glucose level than Americans, I’ve heard.
I think they take turns eating… that’s why they come and go from the room.
Oh. I thought those were pee breaks. Canadians don’t do that, y’know.
O.M.G!!
Webb provides CONTEXT for Iraq!
Someone hand me smelling salts!
A US Senator saying, ‘…let’s not make this an atomized (conversation)…’
Swooning here on the Left Coast…
O.M.G… A US Senator who actually points out that while Iraq is happening, China is rapidly developing, etc, etc… (Am I correct that Webb is basically calling bullshit on Bu$hCo not sharing a Strategic Framework document with the Senate…? That follows Hlllary’s points, noted on a previous thread, that Bu$hCo DOES have to present such a document to the Senate for approval…?)
Sorry, lotsa gaps in my info.
Holy cat’s pajamas, Sen Webb is a breath of fresh air. Evidently novelists can make effective Senators. Who knew?
Breathe for a second. Remember, he had twice as much time as anyone aside from Bill Astronaut Smiles Nelson.
And, say. Did anyone notice that Diaper Dave was a no show today? Somehow three Presidential candidates can make their way to DC to ask these questions. But Diaper Dave can’t seem to do so.
Maybe he still shaken up after the car he was in bumped into the stop sign down home.
Matt, I was going to write something about the car! Oh the car….
Well, backing up is just about the most dangerous thing you can legally do with a car. Or so they told me last week in my company’s driver-training class.
Was he driving another Escort?
A Honda. Not like I can talk–It was easy to find my car on the roof of Cobo the other day, because it was the only foreign make in the whole damn parking lot. BUt still. I’m not in Congress.
Well, it was a cheesy joke, even I thought so; so it was pretty bad. But a US Senator in a Honda? I don’t know why (they are fabulous cars) but that does seem kind of odd in a way.
Thx, EW. That’s why being able to pop on here and catch up is invaluable.
Hadn’t been able to focus on those facts, so appreciate your correcting my misperceptions.
I note that Biden is kicking some ass here at the end, and reiterating the whole ’strategic disaster’ framework. Good for Biden. Courteous, but clearly fed up: “Nobody thinks you’re surgin’.”
Woohoo.
Senator Biden is doing a kind of interesting close. You-all will know better than I do, but he sounds intelligent to me. He’s also very elegant in his way.
It’s a shame that he has to be nice to people he obviously does not believe. That’s a shame for all of us.
And Biden gives them the sound bite. “Nobody thinks you’re surgin. Nobody.”
WOW. One keeps their head down and concentrates on work all day, and ZOWIE!!
A Republican actually begins to sound like Democratic Senator.
Voinovich actually used the word “bankrupt”???
Holy crap, I must be in a parallel universe!!
Okay, that’s it.
I definitely have to track down the Voinivich clip later tonight.
Still, the parts that I was able to catch were focused; not so much grandstanding.
My leftie half is in your parallel universe; my rightie half is in shock.
Navy SEAL Monsoor wins a Medal of Honor posthumously and two years late, and Shrub tears up. “We will not let his life go in vain.” One of three in all of the Iraq War. What’s wrong with this picture? (It’s not Monsoor throwing himself onto a grenade to protect his team.)
Oh, yeah. Weirdly, he had to give that medal out just as the Senate was asking some fine questions and calling bullshit on Petraeus and CrockOfShit. Probly no coinkydink.
What ever constitutes victory or an acceptable endgame there was conveniently danced around. They don’t know and they don’t care and they haven’t come to grips with that. Muddle headed idiots will continue squandering 12-15 billion a month, death by explosion will continue apace, the focus in Afghanisatan and Pakistan will continue to be dilute and dysfunctional.
As Engel said, Basra is about oil–the oil whose continued profits are not being used to pay for any of this, and much of them are shunted to the black market. The goal posts will continue to shift and shift and shift…..and this will keep on keepin’ on.
Glenn G. had a column on Cokie Roberts’ doing something that much of MSM and all of Republican Congress have been doing for years–telling us that their biased, muddled thinking is representative of Americans.
Cokie subs her Republican talking points for the concensus of Americans
I watched a bulk of both hearings and thought both sides of the aisle did pretty darned good. It is obvious that many of the Republicans are running away from the war.
The General and the Ambassador both did as they were expected to do. Sure glad I never had to defend anything like they were trying to do. I did get very tired of Petraeus and his “conditions on the ground” and “geometry of the battlefield”. Such BS. Crocker didn’t get the message on the “diplomatic surge” that was suggested very strongly.
Clinton did very good although she looked a little under the weather. Obama started out very tentative, IMHO, but finished strong with the line of questioning on “how good does it have to be to be able to leave”. I missed McCain, but saw the replays and didn’t see anything except more McBushie stuff.
Senator Biden was on the top of his game today and I have always been impressed with Senator Lugar.
About Crocker–I dunno, did you see Biden at the end (I’m sure it’ll get clipped). He basically said, “No one believes you [Crocker]’re surging. No one. No one.”
Yes, I did see it. Maybe Ryan got the message finally. Just some etiquette points that us wonks kind of appreciate. Biden addressed Lugar as “Chairman” several times. At the end, Biden came down into the witness well to talk to and shake hands with them.
My first time at a hearings – second row of peanut gallery behind our principals – it really irritated me that our Secretary had to go up to the Chairman – Jack Brooks – and shake his hand. I complaimed to my boss and he told me to get used to it, that was how it was done in the Big City.
Appreciate your perspective; I was able to watch the end of that hearing and saw Biden come down to shake hands with Petraeus and Crocker. It struck me as a gracious, civil (smart) courtesy on Biden’s part. Good to get confirmation from your comment.
Always good to see someone with the upper hand show magnanimity.
Of course he had just kicked Crocker’s ass, on the “diplomatic surge” issue. I imagined he came up, apologized for kicking his ass, and then tried to explain what they need to believe the diplomatic track is working.
Yeah, that only took six years (!).
But looking at the half-full part of the glass, Biden (finally!) kicked Crocker’s ass. That’s a 180 from September, and I’ll take it!
As for your second point…. (sigh…) Maybe Biden will take a few tips from the way that Dodd handled FISA? Therein lies some basis for optimism.
Dodd’s earned a Black Belt in FISA as far as I’m concerned; he didn’t apologize to the telecoms, he didn’t apologize to Bu$hCo, and he didn’t sleaze off a tawdry ‘compromise’. He stood (alone) for principle. And although he didn’t get the nomination, he earned some heartfelt respect (not a common occurrence in US politics today).
Here’s hoping Biden was watching how Dodd handled FISA, and and do for the damn war what Dodd did with FISA: call ‘bullshit’ and refuse to back down.
I missed the whole schmabolie, but was able to read a bit here and there. Is McCain wired, as in when he screws up, he gets a jolt and rethinks his question/comment?
I can summarize for you. Pet and “ah ah ah” Crock of Crocker answered nothing.
Congress ain’t doin’ nothin.’
America ain’t remembrin’ nothin’ ’bout it ’cause it ain’t hardly involved in Iraq.
Out o site out o mind. Same ole same ole.
Everyone who thinks that both sides of Aisles did well, please someone tell me precisely what was learned.
‘Cause after watching the dvr of both committees I can’t glean one substantive morsel which contexts where they are in Iraq, if they have a clue where they are on the ground in the belly of the “geometrics of the battefield.”
And while people correctly (after five years) have stumbled onto the fact that this political standoff largely over oil has produced no financial contribution from oil revenues that are largely drained into the black market while they can, Congress has an equal lack of a plan to do anything about it.
The status quo of death by explosion and financial hemorrhage of a government bordering on depression continues.
Pete,
And just what you expect? Anyone expecting the General and Ambassador to do anything other than what they did is naive. What I referred to on both sides of the aisle was the number of Republicans who came off the Bushie party line.
Well, I’ve been watching the Republicans come a little off the party line and it’s all been hot air for a few years, e.g. Lugar, Warner, Hegel, my candidates for two of the most ineffective ditzy Senators both from the state of Maine. They back off the right wing party line a bit, but block votes, obfuscate, and generally we have a genuine clusterfuck of a quagmire.
The bottom line and I’ve said it thousands of times, is the day a draft is instituted, is the day the US quits stepping on its (you name the part of the anatomy I’m targetting). Until that time, Americans could give a flying frig whether Sadir city is blowing up tonight.
There is not adequate neuro protection against head wounds, although it certainly exists and has been developed by a number of physicians. Protective vehicles, fagheddabout it.
I’m not naive–exploded body parts and Dover coffins that no one photographs will be rolling out for years and years. We won’t be a scintilla “safer,” instead the converse holds.
We will continue to piss away $15billion a month into perpetuity.
This is one more exercise by the Senate of Sound and Fury signifying not a damn thing.
Former fed,
All these people including a lot of current dysfunctional feds, who are cluck cluck clucking that the dog and pony with Pet and “ah ah ah ah ah” (reminds me of some “y’knows y’know” and most people’s punctuation of every sentence by the word like including baby boomers who want to be “hip,” or like their kids or grandchildren” need to realize we’re being primitively stupid.
We need to get the fuck out of Iraq now and on an accelerated schedule that is done as quickly as possible to prevent troops from being harmed. We have created 5 million refugees and growing and not done jack shit about it (thank you incompetent worthless destructive Condi Rice), Congressional lack of leadership, and a systemically stupid administration.
The two dumbest delusional phrases in vogue are:
“If we get out, we lose and chaos breaks out.”
“The surge is working”
Anyone that thinks the dog and pony shows were constructive, I challenge them to tell me what we “learned” besides that this administration is personified by Cheney’s “So….!”
I want to know wtf is constructive about 40 Americans killed every month, and another 100 crippled neurologically, orthopedically, or through loss of vision for the rest of their lives?
And medical care once in the states is frought with all kinds of VAH bureucratic and medically incompetent fuckups. I’m directly equipped to document this in a book or an essay, but that’s a whole other discussion and again an issue that the public could give two flying fucks about.
bmaz teh funny!
It was a cheesy joke.
It was a Honda sedan, too, either a Civic or an Accord. Maybe he drives a Civic because his wife took away the Escort?
Looks like a Civic to me.
it was cheezy… but still made me laugh. must be something in the water out here. you guys had me cracking up all day.
Diapers and a Honda Civic? Geez, Vitter makes Larry Craig look macho; I am surprised he isn’t voted off the GOP neanderthal island.
“teat”
Palfrey’s lawyer represented Monica Lewinsky, by the way.
Plato Cacheris? Are you sure?
I also should have mentioned, and although this is EPU deep, someone will remember Iraq at least within the next three months, and when they do, I’ll say this again.
The armed forces are not strained to the breaking point. They’re simply badly broken. The volunteer army doesn’t have the enthusiasm that the volunteer and yet to be realized or confirmed youth vote turnout does in the democratic primary.
Not only are many families being ruined tragically by death and frequent divorce if not death, but the stat touted about is 1/4 suffer significant post deployment psychiatric problems.
I look enthusiastically forward to the time when the blithe, indifferent, totally self consumed and selfish and largely ignorant American public has it’s neck grabbed metaphorically and it’s nose born down on headlines that read “Draft Imposed.”
Then and only then will serious debate and discussion occur on the consequences of staying in Iraq in any significant way. I know while I say this that for more than another generation, we will be there, and “we are where we are” to quote Gregory because “we are stupid and indifferent collectively.”
Again, all the parade of horribles that EW and her commenters dissect dilligently with excellent levels of research continue to be issues because indifferent and ignorant Americans–not here but in general are getting the democracy they deserve shoved up their kazoo.
By the way if a concrete level of success was defined by Petraeus or Crocker, I sure as hell missed it and I watched those hearings and see little need to repeat DVRing the House hearings today. Maybe someone here will enlighten me as to what constitutes the victory McCain/McBush and superficial thinking Republicans who say the surge is “working” but almost all of whom will not even think about their adult kids they arrange jobs for being in Iraq–an example would be Senators Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Issacson or every one of the Republican Governors in the U.S..
Pete,
I guess a night’s sleep didn’t satisfy your penchant for ranting. Have a better day.
My day’s going pretty well. Thanks for indulgently asking.
It’s very unfortunate that my analysis that these hearings were pomp, circumstance and that most Americans don’t even have Iraq or its inter-relationships on its radar are considered ranting by you. But I’m real familiar with bureaucrats who work for the US government, and when they don’t want to face an issue, or want to deny it, they are quick to call it ranting.
It’s the mantra that Rove, DOJ, and CIA have been changing for some time. It might shock you to know that I have a lot of company that sees no definition by Patraeus, “ah ah ah” Crocker who are simply shills for a deadly and financially hemorrhaging failed policy. Many people don’t consider that position ranting, and coming from a fed–calling anything they don’t want to face or analyze ranting is par.
I expected the House and Senate to have the balls to shut down this war years ago.
I hope there will be a draft to shut it down for them.
Were there any questions about Fallon?
Voinovich has been getting a great deal of information from his constituents regarding Iraq. Many are sending him copies of Juan Cole blogs. Many are explaining to him how informed they are as constituents because of resources like Juan Cole and Marcy Wheeler and that with the economic crisis in Cleveland, he cannot justify actions to continue the war when we are falling aparton the domestic front, on his watch due to his party.
I think he finally got the message? One can hope.
Way O/T (sort of)
I do not watch much television but last night we came home from our son’s track meet, got the younger little ones to bed and then just slumped into the couch. Mr. Klynn grabbed the remote and said, “I can’t do anymore work I need to shut my brain down,” and then he clicked on the TV. Boston Legal (which we never watch) was on and a line delivered by William Shatner had us in stitches…thus, we watched some more. I would like to get a transcript of the closing arguments in the two cases featured. A SLAM was made on mainstream media and politically biased news coverage and a slam was made against how the leaders of our country are poorly treating our current armed service personnel serving in the military as well veterans. Absolutely spot on commentary. A “writer’s strike” outcome of enormous strength. It addressed the question how can we as a country continue on a front of continuously sending troops to Iraq with next to no recovery time and gave the stats on the current suicide rate of returned service personnel from Iraq. If I get a copy, I’ll post it. I honestly felt like I was listening to someone reading an EW, Glenn G. or Christy HS post. It was that good. Perfect timing wrt the hearings. It was extremely effective delivery of the needed national message using a “drama” medium. David E. Kelley’s legal/political background shined in the episode, Tabloid Nation.
Boy, I had forgotten what an important role All In The Family played back in the 70’s in showing the side(s) on issues and the struggle as a nation…Norman Lear, thank you!
Mainstream, more of THAT please.
James Spader does that every week in the show
Yeah, that’s what we hear. We pick up bits and pieces about his performances on the show and catch it only now and then. Friends who watch it regularly also agreed that last night’s episode had a poignance in the timing of the script topics. Both James Spader and Candice Bergen were great in delivering their closing arguments from the standpoint of the underlying socio-political arguments. Somewhat of a Keith O special comment moment… We are quite the fans of Candace and we surprised ourselves that we have not taped past shows to watch…Now, we will.
Now, I have to say, a showing of the E-Trade baby ad right after Shatner’s shooting of the Bozo the Clown punching bag…well, would have cinched the evening’s entertainment…
BTW, surprised no one has picked up on the doc leaked to the Guardian yesterday…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..8/iraq.usa
Thought the timing to be worth noting…
Guess a bit of “old” news today…
Here’s the Guardian link (link @61 is bad):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..8/iraq.usa
Hope this one works…
Menendez actually read from the article to Petraeus yesterday.
Thanks, I missed most of the hearing due to a repair crew here at the house… I’ll have to go and read that in the transcript…Glad it “got” into the record…
Preston Burton.
Ah, now I see. Had never heard of Burton before in relation to Lewinsky; appears he was Cacheris’ associate of some sort. The two lead counsels for Lewinsky were Cacheris and Stein though.
Here’s a great link to address Voinovich’s argument about our country being “broke”…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/busi…..rimecrisis
Also like the international coverage of the protesters at the hearings.
Why weren’t there any questions about Fallon? Wouldn’t this be a good avenue for exposing how what a partisan political general Petraeus is?