FISA Liveblog
Reid is on the floor talking about what votes we’ll have tomorrow:
Immunity
Substitution
Exclusivity
Argh. This means we won’t have 60 there for exclusivity.
Reid and Mitch McConnell had some back and forth on the stimulus package.
Kit Bond:
Thank colleagues for agreeing to a way forward on this bill. Hehehe, it would do no good to pass a good that is good for politics, but does not do what those who protect our country need. With these fixes we’ll have a bill the President will sign.
Shorter Kit: this is very very technical and so we’ve decided to just do away with Congressional review and, while we’re at it, privacy. What Mike McConnell wants, Mike McConnell gets.
Whitehouse:
In this debate about revising FISA and cleaning up the damage done by the President’s warrantless wiretap program, the Administration expends all its rhetorical focus on what we agree on.
On what terms will this Administration spy on Americans?
The privacy of Americans from government surveillance.
Both Chairmen–Leahy and Rockefeller–have given it their blessing.
As former AG and USA, I oversaw wiretaps, and I learned that with any electronic surveillance, information about Americans is intercepted incidentally.
In domestic law enforcement, clear ways to minimize information about Americans. Prospect of judicial review is an important part of protecting Americans. Bond and Rockefeller have already put into the bill that the authority to review the minimization if the target is an American inside the US. But as will often be the case, the target will often be outside the US. An American could just as easily be intercepted in these situations. This protection (review of minimization) should apply when the intercepted It makes no sense to strip a court based on the identity of the target. It may be that if there’s litigation that a court will decide that it is implied. The mere prospect of judicial review has a salutary effect. The opposite is true as well, when executive officials are ensured that a Court is forbidden to police enforcement, then they are more apt to ignore compliance. Both here, where the FISA bill creates an unheard of limit on Court powers, and in the immunity debate, where we intercede to choose winners and losers. Bad precedent for separation of powers. Those of you who are Federalist Society members should be concerned about this absence of separation of powers.
Quotes Scalia emphasizing the importance of separation of powers. [nice touch, Sheldon!]
Schumer:
10, no wait make me modify to 12 minutes? I’ll move it back to 10. Rise to speak about two issues. Something that happened in Arizona yesterday. Blah blah blah blah blah some team named the Giants.
Chuck, I appreciate your support of Whitehouse’s amendment, but can you gloat during morning business?
Chuck finally talking about minimization. Oversight. Ensure we get all the intelligence information we need without abuse or overstepping of bounds. It’s hard to see how anyone could object to oversight after the fact to make sure that people aren’t abusing the privilege.
Jello Jay Rockefeller:
Says they learned from SJC, strongly supporting explicitly stating that the Court can review compliance. "Without the compliance part of it are nice but meaningless."
[Good for Jello Jay Rockefeller, all those emails and phone calls have made some difference]
Kit Bond
[Interesting moment. Bond says Hatch and "Mutual Protection Racket" Sessions want to speak, but they’re not IN DC. Whitehouse asks when they’ll be in, and Bond says I don’t have their flight schedule, and cuts Whitehouse off.]
Damage done by Protect America Act. No one said there was damage done.
Bond blabbing on about how the FISC is not able to assess compliance with minimization procedures. [In spite of the fact that these are all circuit judges who review this kind of stuff every day.]
Shorter Kit: I think Sheldon Whitehouse should be in charge of assessing compliance rather than the Courts.
Feingold
PAA authorized new sweeping intrusions into Americans’ privacy. Feingold/Webb/Tester. This is about whether Americans at home deserve more protection than people overseas.
This bill permits the government to acquire those foreigners’ communications with Americans. There is no requirement that the targets be terrorists, spies, or even agent of foreign power. This allows them to acquire anything pertaining to foreign affairs of the United States. Many law-abiding Americans will be swept up in this new form of surveillance with no judicial oversight.
Brings up one of the declassified (by EFF) letters in which McConnell said PAA would authorize the collection of communications of foreign businesses.
Where govt knows in advance, govt can acquire those communications with an American involving terrorism etc., and anything else with a court order. Govt can continue to collect foreign to foreign. If govt does not know with whom a foreign target is communicating, can acquire. But once the govt recognizes that one end is in the US. It must then segregate the US communication in a separate database. Does something similar with PAA. Can disseminate any of them if it pertains to terrorism. Notify after the fact.
These provisions ensure that we know when Americans’ communications are being collected so we can track the impact on Americans’ privacy. And yes, this is good for national security. We’ve heard the President say, that if there are people in this country communicating with Al Qaeda, we need to know about it. This sets up a means to do so.
This amendment permits wiretapping overseas. If tracking AQ, it can collect all of it. It needs to tag the information, notify FISA after the fact. If the govt is conduct massive dragnet collections, this would provide the proper oversight. It will make sure that these authorities are not abused.
Minimization procedures. Extremely important. But the supporters of Intell committee bill are enough to protect privacy. Minimization requirements are quite weak. Permit widespread dissemination of information about US person and their identities if necessary to understand foreign intelligence. We know from our experience of nomination of John Bolton how easy it is to get the identities of people obtained in intelligence. Minimization is simply inadequate in context of broad new authorities. Amendment balanced and reasonable approach. It gives the govt full access to foreign to foreign without court oversight. Access to foreign to American if terrorist without court order. Gives the administration what it asked for. So when VP says, we need to pass leg that permits wiretapping of foreign to foreign. This amendment totally permits that. This amendment also provides safeguards to make sure Americans’ rights are being protected. Too many Americans are going to have their communications collected. Any Senator who believes Exec Branch should not be granted far reaching authorities without independent oversight, should vote for this bill.
Tester
[Last week, we tried to strategize with Tester to get him to wear his Carhart jacket on the Senate floor. But he’s in a suit now.]
Sets a higher threshold for access to communications for those that involve Americans.
Why is this necessary? Because this Administration set up a warrantless wiretap program that severely infringed on our rights to be free from unwarranted search and seizure. This bill expands on the Administration’s illegal program. As it stands, anytime you communicate overseas, your communication could end up in a govt database.
This is not what Americans expect or deserve.
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is meant for foreign intelligence.
Webb
Got his first security clearance when I was 17. Black security clearances when Secty Navy. Also very sensitive to massive instantaneous flow of data that makes it essential to intercept key transitions. Gives us responsibility to ensure that with this volume that we don’t allow mistakes and abuse. This amendment designed to allow our govt to aggressively fight terrorism but to protect our rights. Will not stop or slow ability of intelligence services to do the job they have to do. Arguments have not focused fully about broad Constitutional issues.
[You’re telling me.]
We also must care just as deeply that our govt surveillance is conducted in accordance with our Constitution.
Watchwords for this amendment: Safety, Security, Fighting Terrorism, Oversight, Proper Checks and Balances
Like to emphasize that our amendment will do what the American people have been demanding. Every American supports the fundamental principle of checks and balances.
For almost seven years, the executive branch’s surveillance program has operated in secrecy, above the law, with no oversight. Only executive and some people from telecom companies have known which Americans were being wiretapped. Congress rejected this idea when it first passed FISA.
[Brings up denial of request to see documents pertaining to the program as it has existed]
If we do not ask the questions, how will we ever know the extent of govt surveillance?
Some argue this will be cumbersome. Not true–it already labels the info it collects.
Time to law aside differences, time to assert oversight activities.
Kit Bond
Quite a few misconceptions and misinterpretations.
[Can we charge him with perjury if he lies?]
A number of members who wish to speak more about it.
[Once again: Hatch and Sessions not here???]
You can’t get a certification to begin process unless reasonable process to be sure person outside the States, do not permit intentional targeting of any person in the US. A significant purpose is to obtain foreign intelligence information. Statement that someone going abroad calling home would be beyond the pale. Clear provision against targeting American without being sure they’re foreign intelligence.
The amendment will have a totally unexpected impact. It’s difficult to explain in unclassified session why this is so unworkable.
[Shorter Bond: I don’t want to admit they’re playing in the servers with all your emails in them.]
[Bond is just being an asshole at this point, claiming an amendment that requires someone to figure out first whether a communication is overseas, when the amendment says you only have to segregate once you realize it is.]
I can’t describe here, in a public setting, how they go about ascertaining what people to target.
[Bond doesn’t want to admit that they data mine, which also has been outlawed by the Senate.]
Or his number 3 man after his last number 3 man was just wiped out.
[HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Bond just recognized our biweekly capture of the number 3 guy of Al Qaeda.]
[Ut oh, mixing metaphors, Bond, the lockbox is how you stole our Social Security money.]
Cardin:
Cardin to present his sunset provision.
1978 Congress passed the FISA statute. Quoting Teddy from 1978. "The complexity of the problem must not be underestimated. … My objective has been to reach some kind of fair balance…"
On sunset. Retroactive immunity concerns me, not just on how they worked with this administration. What concerns me is the impact it will have on the court’s oversighting the abuses of privacy by the Administration or private companies. We’re saying, we reserve the right to take away the third branch of govt’s right to decide whether someone’s rights have been violated.
[Cardin finally gets around to explaining why 4 years instead of 6]
I think it is in our national interest for the next Administration to look at those opinions that came out of the AG’s office and the White House, to see whether there is not a better way to accomplish surveillance and protection of civil liberties.
Oh Jeebus. Apparently the frigging Super Bowl is more important to TWO Senators than FISA is. Specter is introducing a bill to allow Churches to show NFL games on bigscreen teevee.
Jello Jay Rockefeller:
Supporting Cardin’s amendment. I think it’s important, when you’re doing legislation of this magnitude, when so many members are not informed as they should. It’s not their fault.
This is really important legislation, but there is no one, with the exception of the Administration which has rejected the review. The reason for that is very clear, one wants to make sure one has the right balance. There are a number of new initiatives that will be started in this legislation. None of them are entirely predictable. There are the unintended consequences.
[Unintended, by you, perhaps, but certainly not unforeseen by us…]
Bond:
I have a number of my colleagues who have indicated a desire to speak on it, so I’m only going to speak a few minutes.
When this came to the committee … bipartisan bipartisan bipartisan … the SSCI and Mike McConnell get to make all the decisions.
The enemies, the terrorists who want to do us harm, they do not put a sunset on their activities. To put an artificial time limit on it makes no sense. Every time we explain on the floor, the more our enemies, those who would seek to do us harm, learn about our intelligence collection capabilities.
Cardin:
Let me just kick Bond in the ass respond to Bond’s points. The cooperation we receive from the executive branch is very much enhanced when we know we have to pass a statute. I noticed Bond’s point that the terrorists have no sunset. They also have no legislature. They have no respect for the civil liberties.
I think it is critically important that the next Administration work with this Congress to look at what this Administration did. That’s why I believe the four year sunset is so important. We’re not gonna let the authorities expire. There’s not a person in this body that disagrees with giving the appropriate ools.
Cardin: Hey, did you know the NSA is in my state?
We owe the NSA the type of support that they need.
Feingold:
Part of judiciary bill. Again, this amendment puts no additional limits to target people overseas. To help ensure that the government follows the procedures that are laid out in the bill. The complete lack of any incentive to do what the bill tells it to do. One thing that everyone should agree, the govt should not use these authorities to target the conversations of individuals in the US. Bill requires targeting procedures designed to ensure that only people outside US are targeted. All of this sounds good. Targeting in particular are one of the few safeguards. Remarkably, the intell bill does nothing to ensure that the govt follows them. They’re basically non-binding. If the govt has been using those unlawful procedures while the FISC reviews them, they can keep using the information that it gathers, all the while disseminating information collected under procedures the court has found inadequate. It is simple common sense. If the govt wasn’t allowed to collect this information they govt shouldn’t be allowed to use this information except in emergency. This amendment adopts the same basic idea. If govt collects info using unlawful procedures, govt can only use information from US persons in case of emergency. Govt can still continue to use info collected on foreign persons.
Gives FISC discretion to use info on US person–info collected illegally–as long as govt fixes unlawful procedures. Overseen and applied by FISA court. Bare minimum we could do to ensure govt follows procedures it is required in the first place.
If they don’t want that, then all the requirements are just suggestions, and it would be clear that they do not want to only spy on foreigners.
Bond:
Would impose additional operating burdens.
[Shorter Bond: I’m going to pretend this amendment applies to foreigners when it only applies to US persons, because otherwise I’ll have to admit that we’re willing to do sequestration for individuals but not for huge groups of people–because, you see, we want to data mine data mine data mine, but I’m not allowed to tell you about that. I’m going to filibuster for a bit in the hopes that Feingold doesn’t kick my ass again because it hurt when he did it a while ago. And boy I wish Mutual Protection Racket Sessions were here already, because he’s got an ass of steal and I’d rather he get his ass kicked by Feingold rather than me.]
Jello Jay Rockefeller Jello Jay:
Feingold’s amendment concerns the affects of the Court’s determination that there are deficiencies in the govt’s collection procedure.
FISC must review procedures for minimization and targeting. Requires that the shortcoming be fixed or the program be terminated. Feingold amendment prevents govt sharing or disseminating info already required under procedure that concerns US persons. There may be some appeal to idea that there are consequences. Looking at the consequences makes it clear that the provisions are impractical. Serious risks that we would lose valuable intelligence. Feingold’s amendment prevents use of all info gathered through new system of intelligence gathering.
[Like Bond, I don’t want to tell you that the problem with Feingold’s amendment is that it does data mining and if we have to throw some out, it’d ruin our little data mining. If the govt collects thousands of targets inappropriately, I’d rather not get rid of those thousands of targets, Feingold thinks, golly, whether it is thousands or just one, if it was unlawful, it was unlawful.]
This would prohibit the intelligence community from using information just because of minor deficiencies in procedure.
[Note: Jello Jay just noted that he realizes this is leaving a record for the Courts. He is basically saying it is okay for the government to ignore minor "deficiencies" or even major ones.]
Feingold:
The arguments of Bond and Jello Jay don’t apply here. My amendment only puts limits on info about US person. The govt can always use info about foreign targets. If the govt starts its program before court approval and fails to track what it has collected in the interim. It can do what it says it always does, which is to label it. Result of the arguments is "we’ve set up rules for the govt and the govt doesn’t follow the rules, there’s not incentive. The govt can always use this info." I’m very troubled by the arguments of the Senator from Missouri. It is given an opportunity to fix it, the notion they shouldn’t use this simply allows the govt the ability to spy on Americans with no consequences.
Jello Jay:
Thousands of targets, all foreign, means hundreds or thousands of pieces of intelligence. Intell doesn’t come as one lump. All that intelligence could be lost under the Feingold amendment if there were only US person information that were involved.
Feingold:
It’s true that these use limits would only apply to US persons.
Stabenow interrupts for the Stimulus Package arguments. I’m going to sign off now and go buy some food. Will pick it up if it gets interesting again.
thanks marcy! i was just looking for some moral support while i watch c-span2.
He is just discussing the economic bailout it sounds like.
Enjoy the game yesterday?
The game was great. If only we could dare dream of such a big upset on retroactive immunity….
TOUCHDOWN!!!!! TOUCHDOWN!!!!! TOUCHDOWN!!!!!
GIANTS WIN!!!! GIANTS WIN!!!!! GIANTS WIN!!!!!
Remember – “Destiny” only comes to its end if it has NY in it.
Reid’s plans and prediction about which votes when are apt to fail to pan out. But he does want to handle the contentious amendments first, rather than at the end of the sequence of debate.
The Senate can also conduct debate, and “stack” votes for “later.”
I don’t expect a close vote on any of these, where having ALL of the absent Senators would make a difference. I can only recall one such event.
what event was that?
I don’t recall the exact amendment, but Kerry’s absence made the difference between passing something that he personally had expressed conviction on, and failing to get enough votes to pass it. He was roundly criticized by the media at the time.
what event was that
Ahhh … found an article reference. Sorry for the OT. Well, it’s on topic to the extent that the Senate won’t “pull a fast one” on vote scheduling, and “screw” a senator out of casting a vote where that Senator insists on taking the vote. The Senate schedule will be adjusted to accommodate.
thanks!
Oh, yeah. A similar thing happened in the spring of 2003, when the Democratic candidates for president were all going to meet and debate in Saint Paul. Karl Rove told Frist to schedule a few key Senate votes on that day, which meant that sitting Senators like Kerry, Clinton and Edwards couldn’t show up for the event. Dean and Kucinich were about the only candidates there.
Is that based on the time limits included in the amendments?
Is that based on the time limits included in the amendments?
Reid was clearly confused about the order of taking up amendments, and as a result,
I don’t have a clue as to what the order of debate and vote might be.
As a general rule, the timing of votes can be merely tangentially related to the time allowed to debate each amendment, especially when the Senate has agreed to 10 or more amendments. They like to schedule a stack of votes to permit a maximum number of senators to vote.
I just asked Reid’s staffer whether Reid has a parlimentarian and told him they need a new one.Can I suggest you cboldt?
no shit.
Why is Harry pretending to stand strong against Bush’s budget when he won’t stand up for the Constitution?
damn. left a couple of comments in epu land in the previous thread. nothing i wrote was important, except that i gave links to pow wow’s comments over at glenn’s place. recommend them to all.
Oh! We are going to be blind and deaf if they don’t pass the bill!
Can you cry Wolf! Wolf! Wolf!, etc…! Bond is a republican, nuf said.
Bond is going to bore the Dems into submission.
no need – they have already submitted. bond is just grinding our faces in it.
extending federal unemployment benefits
to marcy and all – i’m recording the c-span2 video. if there are any bits you’d like to have youtubed, let me know and i’ll get it up asap (so long as i don’t suffer any crashes today).
I’d love this bit where SHeldon quotes Scalia!! Maybe from where Sheldon talks about this amendment and the immunity through the end of the first quote?
sorry, stepped away from the computer for a moment – will grab it as soon as russ is done (so i don’t create a break in his statement).
just wanted to let you know i’m on it and will let you know when it’s up.
Whitehouse describing is amendment now on minimization (a 60 vote amendment).
Whitehouse talking about the minimization admendment. Judicial review?! George doesn’t need no stinkin’ judicial reveiw!!
Whitehouse is making good points on FISA court review but too bad George don’t care.
Whitehouse nails it!
Yes, he did that very well. He is hated by the Unitary Executive and the Fourth Branch of government.
Looser compliance? Ya, just what George wants. Whacking on the Federalist Society at the moment.
Schumer on the New York Giants. Must need future votes.
And let it be noted that Hillary’s not even here for THIS obviously very necessary gloating.
At least Chuck is putting the emphasis where it should be, on the D-Line.
And btw, Chuck? That’s not Brady “back on his heels.” That’s back on his ass.
Are you freakin’ kidding me?!? I love football as much as anyone, but in the middle of a debate this important to the rule of law and Schumer starts yammering about the Super Bowl?!? I feel sick.
Is Schumer just a tool, or what?
STFU Chuck. There’s real shit to talk about.
Didn’t Schumer actually bargain for more time from Whitehouse’s amendment to do his postgame gloating? Somebody get the hook!
LOL! Helen, Phred, & Fractal, ya it is silly but it might be the highlight of his senate career.
Screw Schumer. Talk about the Constitution not your tales of American Sports, naked hucksterism and mythical heroes. I love Football but this is not the time nor the forum for this.
Nice, the amendment is secondary. Good to know the Constitution is secondary to football. !*@&#&
”Are you freakin’ kidding me?!? I love football as much as anyone, but in the middle of a debate this important to the rule of law and Schumer starts yammering about the Super Bowl?!? I feel sick.”
Schumer just doesn’t want anyone to have time to bring up his conformation of Mukasey.
Now back to business, Schumer – not interfering with wire tapping. Make sure the intelligence folks follow the rules.
Bond: Hatch and Sessions want to speak.
Yeah-thanks for the warning, Kit.
Hatch doesn’t really speak, just chews his cud.
Please remember to hard refresh only every 12-15 minutes. Ah, just like old times of the Plame Trial.( Took me 5 minutes to get back)
I swear Bond looks drunker than he did a half hour ago. That guy really needs some help.
Bond – “There’s been no damage done by the Protect America Act”… OMG, who are you trying to convince?
Hey, lighten up on the Chuckster.
Yesterday was the Holy Day for Corporate America.
I do wonder whether the New England, just minutes from Foxboro resident Whitehouse, is a Patriots fan. Because if Schumer took all that time to blab about the Giants on a Patriots’ fan’s time, I’d be furious.
Well, I am in any case.
Yeah, Whitehouse didn’t look very happy when he reserved the rest of his time.
What are the chances that either Obama or Clinton and the Congress will repeal or otherwise undo PAA, PA, etc.
At this point, this is where my thoughts are being directed. On account of this congress is going to give the Admin whatever it wants, whenever it wants, plus interest, until Bush is in the helicopter and on the way to the great cedar brush thicket.
Bond – yada, yada yada… snore.
Russ is up to bat and no NYG’s talk, yet. PAA more sweeping intrusions on American privacies.
Um. Russ is the Packers’ Senator. I suspect he has no comment on the Giants.
Ya, but the Giants’ win makes the Packers look better.
Russ – Minimization is weak, allows info dipersed around the government.
Webb and Tester coming up.
Oh, and selise, I would love that line on John Bolton!!
you got it!
Tester makes so much sense. If only more people were listening…
Reepublicans are the Party of Intrusion. Tester makes too much sense.
Webb is doing great coming in from his position of having been involved with handling intelligence in the past. Got the creds for this. Now what will the kids not understand?
Webb – Oversight! Oversight! and then some! What the Republicans have failed to do.
Is it too much to ask for Webb to apply his boot to a few butts to get these amendments passed?
Sigh, it the damn decorum of the place. Gets in the way.
Gawd! Webb just got snarky! Can’t view the documents of the gathered information.
Bond: This amendment can’t work, but I can’t tell you why or I’d have to kill you.
I guess Kitty drew the short straw today. He seems to be the only Senate Rethug giving their anti-Constitutional masters in the WH a big smooch…
Bond – the admendment will cause problems but I can’t talk about it because it a secret.
Brings up Osama Bin Laden, can’t listen in on communication because to the Feingold/Tester/Webb admendment. Talking out his butt. Use the bogeyman when all else falls. how can he compare radio communications to telephone and e-mail? Big difference between those.
Webb for VP.
Feingold calling BS on Bond.
Gee, sounds like Russ is telling Bond that he hasn’t bother to read the admendment.
That was slapdown, put Bond on his butt.
Don’t worry, I don’t think he will feel it. Plenty of anesthesia has been applied.
Nothing like good corn likker!
I am very late to the party today. Thank you Marcy for covering this.. Thank you so much.
Perhaps the 34ish good Senators should all walk out tomorrow.
hey ES! glad for the company and moral support while watching this…
Well unfortunately, at least 3 of the 34ish good Senators are not even HERE, because they’re running for President or helping friends run for President.
WHoo hooo the flashing fingers are it again!
just fyi – lots of error msgs today: ”A database connection error has occured. Please try again!”
But of course. If we’re pushing FISA, then it means we’re crashing. It’s like clockwork.
shhh… i don’t want my little 6 yr old imac (that is ripping the video and at the moment, trying to run safari) or my little 3.5 year old g4 ibook (that is compressing whitehouse’s floor statement) to get ideas. *g*
you mean to prevent a quorum?
Anything, something.. make a huge statement. Which of course will never happen because we have to be nice to our fellow Dems in name only.
Is anyone besides Bond going to show up and speak for the trolls?
Well, he’s a Republican. We’re lucky to have him here on a Monday. Don’t you know that Republicans don’t show up to DC until Tuesday?
Sessions and Hatch have asked to speak…they just haven’t shown up at the designated time to speak. So Senator Whitehouse has to come back and argue this one their Republican Tuesday timeschedule, rather than Democratic Monday timeschedule.
Funny how they gut the constitution when we are attacked by 20 allies, and they turn it into some kind of terror war? Same guys taking bribes from their actual masters, Israel, Turkey, etc..
any of you know of any terrorist attacks that would cause us to piss our pants and destroy our government.
talking about this and justifying any action except absolute resistance to fascism is really not much help.
there have been no terror attacks folks. doesn’t anyone realize this yet? Have you ever seen anything except one lousy video shot per building of two things hitting them? No other evidence at all, and we soil ourselves in fear.
this country doesn’t deserve security when we clearly don’t want to protect it.
OT: Hersh says Syria bombing target NOT Nuke facility
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0203.html
Syria bombing target…
I heard the party line’s slam dunk just an hour ago; I got cornered into listening to John Bolton spew on with Thom Hartmann that Syria’s silence on the issue was evidentiary proof of guilt and furthermore ElBaradei is a total flake, getting dragged and fooled through Iran like one with a ring through their nose.
He got a bit ticklish when Thom ask why anybody should now believe him, when he got everything absolutely (fucking) wrong about Iraq.
My last scandals list entry 309 is on John Bolton. I don’t think it is generally realized how many pies he had a finger in.
Cardin: “The president would want no Congress.”
That was wonderful, wasn’t it?
anthrax?
but i don’t care – giving in to a police state doesn’t make us safer, it makes us less safe. because there is no accountability for failures of national security. incompetence is protected.
Incompetence is a secret.
exactly. no accountability.
wtf is this? i don’t object to eulogies from the senate floor, but why are they planned for now?
Some members of the family are in the gallery or something.
yes, and i’m glad they are not being made to watch the fisa debate. but i’m guessing that they are in the gallery at this time because this is when it was planned for them to be there.
EW,
Just wanted to say during this eulogy break that you are doing a great job on the live blogging. Thank you for that.
i’m just finding it all a bit crazy making – all this honor for the ideal of “equal justice under law” while the senate is in the process of giving very unequal justice to the regular citizens illegally spied on by their government and the telco executives who were part of what appears to be illegal conspiracy to strip americans of their 4th amendment rights.
The scales of justice sit on a three-legged stool, and the Congressional leg is failing.
(I wish I had the talent to turn this into a political cartoon.)
WTF?!? “Everything changed on 9/11″, Jello Jay. What is wrong with the Dems in Congress??? Are they only able to speak-in-Rethug-tongues???
Oh, selise, Cardin’s response there was pretty good–the line about terrorists not havign sunsets, but also not legislatures?
i heard that too – do you want just a clip of that bit, or all of cardin’s statement?
Probably just need about the minute that he focuses on terrorists not having sunsets, or legisltaures, or human rights or yadda yadda yadda. Unless you think the whole thing is better…?
then i recommend that i do the small bit right away for a clip i can get up fast, and compress the complete statement later tonight.
Cool. And can you get that whole back and forth starting at Bond’s rebuttal, through Feingold’s rebuttal of Jello Jay? That was pretty breathtakign and scary…
yep. i think i got it all.
Very snappy line from Cardin. He added — terrorists don’t have democracy, but we do, i.e., we are not going to let terrorists control how we govern ourselves.
So is Reid trying to bury the issue? Given that this is an important vote, and falls on Super Tuesday…hey! look over there!
When I called Reid’s office today, one of the comments I left was that they should postpone all votes until Wednesday, when Obama/Clinton/McCain (and apparently others) would be done with Super Tuesday.
Should we be putting some pressure (faxes/phone calls) on Reid to postpone?
how about presure on Reid to resign the leadership! i’m liking that a bunch better!
Thanks to EW and Jane and Christy, we know so much about the technical details of these bills that it is actually rewarding to hear individual Senators, like Russ just now, speaking to our concerns. But I wonder if the rest of the audience is just hitting the snooze button when they hear “minimization” and “reverse targeting.”
EW,
and all commenters, thanks for this afternoon of liveblogging.
Rockefeller speaking against Feingold’s minimization amendment.
what an ass. I know Christy thinks well of him but . . . . .
Rockefeller’s reputation has been totally destroyed by the excellent work here at the Lake. I bet he gets a primary challenge next time he’s up.
I linked this discussion at my blog, Wild Wild Left, and at My Left Wing for you… the more eyes the better.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks,
Diane
Dear Progressive Goddess, What have I done to deserve Senator Rockefeller?
If the analysts are already burdened with so much work, why is Jello Jay advocating a firehose of information that said analysts have no hope of staying on top of?
Don’t be so smart all the time. Remember this is government work.
So that’s the problem! I forgot this is the government we’re dealing with. Silly me ; ) I’ll type more slowly and use smaller words…
and while i’m asking questions…
sheldon whitehouse statement is uploading to youtube now. i did the whole thing since it was just under 10 minutes (and therefore within youtube’s limits). if anyone wants a smaller clip, let me know (that’s easy, since it’s already all compressed – that’s the bit that takes the longest on my old computers).
feingold is up next. his statement was 17 minutes long. do you want it all (i could do it as two clips in a playlist) or is there a smaller bit you can describe?
smaller clips are, obviously, faster to compress… so they are good for fast turn around. longer clips take more time and are better for a delay of a few hours.
Rockefeller is amazing me — he is explicitly advocating retaining transmissions involving only Americans which apparently were not collected under a warrant. Ass.
chair just cut Feingold off, would not let him rebut Rockefeller’s latest outrage. Quorum call.
Kitty must be on the phone with Darth brushing up on his talking points…
Nah, had to visit the litter box. Been hittin’ the hip flask pretty hard today.
LOL — i stand corrected ; )
hey Jim. How’s things over on the Gulf coast? You guys are gettin the Super Bowl over there next year.
My daughter got sent to the sandbox at Wikipedia.
Doing okay. I’ll get my calls in to the spaceman (that’s the Nelson in FL, Fractal) tomorrow. It’s frustrating that his vote is so important but he goes back and forth to the Republicans so easily.
Hey, BL.
How ya doin’? That’s it from me about mr favorite team in sports for 40 years being the World Champion of American Football. No more. Here. I’l probably be at FDL annoying people later.
Got the e-mail from Jane and Glenn. Unsually pessimistic. Just keepin’ irt real, I suppose. Sen. Spaceman needs workin’ on.
Spaceman is Rockefeller?
What on earth is Baucus talking about? Why did they cut off Russ, if they needed to stay on schedule with the Repubs supposed to get the next 5 minutes?
Thanks. Makes sense, Cape Canaveral and all . . . .
I stepped away for a minute, so I missed the beginning of the current vote. CSPAN2 says it is a vote on a motion to proceed to the Stimulus bill. How will that impact the actions on the PAA bill?
I think Reid announced the schedule for today would be divided between the FISA debate (with no votes) and discussing/voting on the economic recovery package.
It doesn’t, sadly. I think courageous Democrats would have held up the stimulus bill to get the PAA amendments and subpoena responses they want.
Another missed opportunity if you ask me.
Intel may not come in one lump but the same can not be said of the junior Senator from West Virginia.
Can you believe that guy? Expressly arguing to retain our private conversations, emails, web postings, online shopping, browsing, all probably collected without a warrant.
Harry: McConnell won’t let us work on FISA for 30 hours! That is so stupid of the Repugs if true. That lets Obama and Clinton come back to vote, if we can convince them.
Harry sounds mad.
Ah, thanks.
I clearly walked out of the room at the wrong time — who are the “they” requesting 30 hrs to “waste the people’s time”. Harry’s cranky, but I’m not sure why…
marcy’s first youtube request is up: whitehouse’s complete statement.
it looks a little jerky, but that could just be my imac choking. it looked fine in quicktime on my ibook. if there are problems, i’ll go back and see what improvements i can make after i get the rest of the short clips up.
Ah Mitch is bitching about the stimulus package—they didn’t get it until Thurs. and he’s throwing a hissy fit.
So did the cloture vote on the stimulus package fail? Is that what precipitated this? If that’s the case, the 30 hour delay is less about FISA than the stimulus package. If only we will be so lucky as to have PAA lapse…
No, it’s pretty confusing. They got over 80 votes on the cloture on the stimulus, but it sounds like Harry didn’t show Mitch the details on the bill.
I don’t know how this blocks the FISA vote, but I’m sure someone will explain that for us.
So did the cloture vote on the stimulus package fail? Is that what precipitated this? If that’s the case, the 30 hour delay is less about FISA than the stimulus package.
The preset fireworks are over both subjects, but what precipitated the debate was PASSAGE of the cloture motion on the motion to proceed to economic stimulus. The GOP doesn’t want to pick up the economic stimulus package before the 30 hours of post-cloture time runs. It’s a non-issue as a practical matter, because the FISA debate is apt to take 30 hours of calendar time (i.e., overnight while the Senate is adjourned).
The complaints here have no impact that amounts to delay of FISA.
but can’t the 30 hours of debate be limited to the bill that just passed cloture – so, if the Rs want to force the issue, they can prevent anything else (like fisa) from even being debated?
or do i have the rules wrong?
but can’t the 30 hours of debate be limited to the bill that just passed cloture – so, if the Rs want to force the issue, they can prevent anything else (like fisa) from even being debated?
There is a UC agreement that covers the motion to proceed to the economic stimulus package. The time between the cloture vote and actually taking the motion to proceed isn’t named, specifically, but in spirit, this applies:
The very fact of a cloture petition (motion) on a motion to proceed to economic stimulus is a big tell, that there was objection to proceeding to economic stimulus.
Technically, the pending debate is on a motion to proceed to economic stimulus. The GOP has the right to object to setting that debate aside. Reid is about to ask UC to do just that.
Can you clarify what is going on here then, because Harry seems genuinely upset.
Correct
Boxer just said they did invoke cloture on the stimulus bill.
This is the most steamed I’ve ever seen Harry…
Woohoo, Harry’s got a cob up his arse over Mitch’s comments. Get some!
Too bad its all acting.
Wow, Harry’s starting to sound like us — how weird is that?
It’s getting personal, for sure. He’s calling them out on risking their own re-elections in November. McConnell suddenly doesn’t like cloture petitions. awwwww
McConnell suddenly doesn’t like cloture petitions.
Both sides play the same games. It really is a grown-up version of kindergarten.
oooh, Harry takes back the word “shallow”
IT’S ABOUT FRIGGIN TIME!
McConnell preaching the virtues of
capitulationbipartisanship to the Democrats.Reid: don’t tell me we have to pass the SSCI bill just because its “bipartisan.” Reid says he’s not going to stand for McConnell’s “shallow” comments.
Crap. Harry’s already apologizing.
What a pathetic wimp.
He called McConnell “shallow” which is a no no on the Senate floor. So he had to withdraw it quickly. Unfortunate, because boy was he fighting for a brief moment there.
which is a no no on the Senate floor
Unless you are Dick Cheney.
Unfortunately, it wasn’t in the record.
No, you can say “F*ck You”, you just can’t call someone shallow.
uh oh, now Harry’s backpedaling and apologizing.
Reid apologizes for accidentally acting like he might have a pair for a couple of minutes.
I’m not in front of a tv right now. Is there going to be any voting on FISA tonight?
if it hasn’t been said already, one more compelling reason for NOT givng retroactive immunity:
“Joseph Cirincione, the director for nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, a Washington, D.C., think tank, told me, “Syria does not have the technical, industrial, or financial ability to support a nuclear-weapons program. I’ve been following this issue for fifteen years, and every once in a while a suspicion arises and we investigate and there’s nothing. There was and is no nuclear-weapons threat from Syria. This is all political.” Cirincione castigated the press corps for its handling of the story. “I think some of our best journalists were used,” he said.”
Hersh again:
http://www.newyorker.com/repor…..table=true
WTF is going on? Is there a way the FISA can be stalled?
Is there a way the FISA can be stalled?
Yes, but not for long. It’ll pass by the end of the week, even if the 30 hours associated with a motion to proceed to Ec. Stim stops debate on FISA for that 30 hours.
Cloture on the motion to proceed to Ec Stim was passed. That means there is 30 hours of debate available, before voting on the motion to take up Ec. Stim.
Anyway, the debate is hard to follow becuase the procedure of FISA is intertwined with the procedure on Ec. Stim., even though UC agreements were put in place so each could proceed without interfering with each other.
Thanks cboldt. So those 30 hours post-cloture could be waived, but McConnell won’t do that, so now Harry’s knickers are in a twist, right?
So those 30 hours post-cloture could be waived, but McConnell won’t do that, so now Harry’s knickers are in a twist, right?
Waived, or shifted, etc. The Senate can do whatever it wants – if it gets UC to do so. There are few rules that cannot be broken by UC.
While I think the objection to proceed to HR 5140 was anticipated, or even existed (that’s why a cloture motion was filed in the first place); I’m not sure Reid anticipated the GOP using the 30 hours to interrupt work on FISA.
All sorts of interesting effects can occur when the Senate tries to handle multiple contentious bills, simultaneously.
So can I dream that in a fit of pique Reid will yank FISA altogether and let PAA expire??? ; ) i know it is too much to hope for, but just for a minute indulge me ; )
no you can dream of the senate passing just what cheney wants them to, and then the house going into a panic because of the lack of time (see first weekend of august), this time because the PAA is about to expire instead of an Aug recess, and then the house passing exactly what comes out the senate. no conference no changes.
basically, the Rs are being clever and the Ds are being stupid.
i think that’s exactly what’s happening.
but i’m trying to do 6 things at once and easily confused.
Barbara Boxer giving the Republicans reading lessons.
This is priceless.
Good on Boxer: Big signs for the intellectually challenged
really great work, cboldt
have to get out of the office now . . . will tune in later
I meant, out of the lake.
Boxer would make a good Majority Leader.
boxer is doing a good job of thinking on her feet, imo. (unless this is all scripted)
I don’t think it’s scripted. I think she’s doing Harry’s job for him.
i think so too. just trying to keep an open mind.
If you think about it, they are pissing and moaning over an additional 30 hours (which runs even when the Senate is adjourned) delay — where those 30 hours can be used to debate economic stimulus — 30 hours delay in eventual passage of FISA.
Worst case, Reid holds the Senate for a Saturday vote.
Weird debate, because the DEMs are sounding as though they want to pass FISA sooner, rather than later. Again, the diff being 30 hours, a 24 hour day + 6 hours.
reid says that the Rs are trying to cut the house out of the process by making sure there will be no time for the house to do anything other than to pass whatever comes out of the senate.
reid says that the Rs are trying to cut the house out of the process by making sure there will be no time for the house to do anything other than to pass whatever comes out of the senate.
There’s something to that argument. I’m pondering that UC agreement that says “passing motion to proceed to HR 5140 won’t interrupt pending business,” as well as Reid’s filing of cloture motion on the motion to proceed. Might have been smarter to just move to proceed to Ec. Stim. (after FISA was done), and see who objects.
From the stimulus vote did you get a head count of who’s in the Senate to vote today? Perhaps Reid ran the numbers and thought he could squeak some amendments through if the Reps were sufficiently shorthanded. Of course, that assumes that Reid actually favors those amendments…
I was wondering the same thing from a slightly different angle. Votes were planned for tonight and tomorrow morning. I wonder if Mitch did the math and thought he was in danger of losing a couple of the amendments. The delay could be to get McCain and Lieberman back in town Wednesday to vote.
From the stimulus vote did you get a head count of who’s in the Senate to vote today? Perhaps Reid ran the numbers and thought he could squeak some amendments through if the Reps were sufficiently shorthanded.
I was away for the vote. Walked back in to hear Reid ranting. I don’t think a vote count is the hidden agenda. I tend to agree with selise’s thought, more driven to compress the time available to the House. Reid can get even. Keep the Senate in on Saturday. Blame it on the GOP.
Does that suggest Reid expects the House to strip out immunity from the Senate version, or that he expects the House to adopt the Senate version pretty much as it comes out? I sure am curious about exactly what Reid and Pelosi have been in contact about…
Does that suggest Reid expects the House to strip out immunity from the Senate version, or that he expects the House to adopt the Senate version pretty much as it comes out?
It doesn’t give much evidence on the substance. It’s more that Reid doesn’t want to be seen as either a cause for delay (he wants the House to have all the time it needs) or as the reason immunity is granted by Congress.
There are some interesting intramural conflicts between the House and Senate, even within a given party. “No honor among thieves.”
It’s a good point. We know that Hatch and “Mutual Protection” Sessions aren’t there.
Well, there is the possibility they wanted to hold the vote in the shadow fo Super Tuesday when at least 3 Democrats plus two other potentially interesting votes wouldn’t be there.
Well, there is the possibility they wanted to hold the vote in the shadow fo Super Tuesday when at least 3 Democrats plus two other potentially interesting votes wouldn’t be there.
So who would be for and against a delay, where the delay works to have those senators back in the Senate?
I think the dems are just sick of the obstructionist bullshit. I know I am.
Boxer is scathing.
I love it when Boxer is fired up! She’s one of the best, notice her pulling in the REAL PROBLEM with this country, the budget, our money, EVERYTHING!
She rocks!
“checkbook open for Iraq, closed for America” Right on.
The presence of charts on the scene sure makes the whole “delay” appear to have been expected. I.e., this is no surprise. Not to be confused with being “a welcome delay,” just not a surprise.
Why is everybody using these blue posters with yellow letters? Did they get a deal from the printing office, or simply run out of other colors?
In fairness, this situation can also be viewed from the perspective of DEMS trying to get changes to the Ec. Stim. package, using the same “delay on FISA” lever.
I hope C-SPAN 2 rebroadcasts this tonight.
Kyl is claiming that Reid told him that Reid promised the Democratic Presidential candidates that there would be no vote on the stimulus package tomorrow. I wonder if he told them that about FISA, also (if it is true).
I’m sure he didn’t. I loathe these Republicans–they’re entitled to their parliamentary gimmicks, which this is–but they’re really dismantling the intent of the Constitution. They, in the Senate, have become nothing more than a wholly owned entity of the White House.
But they ARE right that, if teh Stimulus is important enough to require the Presidentials to return, then so should be the FISA bill.
Though of course, Mr. 1000 years is also not here to vote on FISA.
Indeed.
There is another 30 hour delay built into FISA, after the cloture vote on its passage. Reid can recover the 30 hours by insuring no objections to waiving that 30 hour period.
Harry says have FISA amendment votes tomorrow because none of them will be close.
Reid is making a smart offer – debate tomorrow, belay votes. That takes the reason for objection fully into account.
Reid is also tapping into a GOP suggestion to limit debate on Ec. Stim. — he’s willing to file a cloture motion on the final vote on the Ec. Stim. package to speed it along.
I’m still waiting for the filing of the cloture motion to proceed to the final vote on FISA. That is different from the cloture motion that Reid just now spoke of, which is a cloture motion on final passage of Ec. Stim.
Reid has no problem with votes on FISA tomorrow, none of them will be that close anyway. (says he).
Starting to sound as though things are being worked out.
GOP objects to voting on amendments fully debated today.
Whatever their reasons for it, I am happy for it. At least formally, Clinton and Obama could be present for the most critical FISA votes.
Delays also still give us the hope of PAA simply expiring.
Kyl – to go off the bill we just voted to go on … see UC agreement:
If the motion to proceed could pass, and then be set aside, why not the same “courtesy” for the cloture motion on the motion to proceed?
IOW, the Senate agreed to NOT proceed immediately to Ec.Stim., and Kyl is being disingenuous. If there was concern about the “new” Ec. Stim. bill, they should NOT have voted in favor of cloture.
Yes, it’s interesting that when some of us brought up the question of whether Reid could postpone the FISA vote until after Super Tuesday, it was pointed out that it would take another UC to override the one calling for votes on Tuesday. Looks like the rules are different for the Republicans, as usual.
Looks like the rules are different for the Republicans, as usual.
Same rules – the GOP is taking advantage of a loophole in the UC agreement. The UC agreement was entered into, I think, under an assumption that passing the cloture motion would be followed by immediate agreement with the motion to proceed (this is typical, although it was Dodd used this 30 hour period to advantage last December, to prevent FISA from being brought up in the 1st session).
Because the UC agreement is silent as to how to handle the post cloture period (it could have said, “if cloture is invoke, immediately vote on the motion to proceed, and that adoption of the motion to proceed not displace any pending measures”), it left an opening that was exploited.
Were they fully debated? I thought there was still time left on each of the amendments, but that time was interrupted for cloture on the stimulus, and since then it’s been all hissy fits all the time.
I may be crazy but it seems to me that this is being engineered so that the candidates don’t have to cast any votes on FISA. God forbid they should be seen as protecting the Constitution.
yeah. potential for plans within plans… this is going to take some time to try to unravel, and i’m not sure i can. but i bet pow wow could tell us.
pow wow! where are you? we need you!
yep. Lots of kibuki going on and I can’t interpret the smoke signals. Apologies for the mixed metaphor.
If you are reading glenn’s salon.com you probably caught powwow’s reply.
Hi, powwow. Glad to know you are lurking at least.
Has anyone seen PolyUSA lately?
Thanks for the liveblog, emptywheel. Why can’t Dodd or Whitehouse submit a motion to postpone the amendment votes until after super Tuesday and slow this FISA train down a bit?
Were they fully debated? I thought there was still time left on each of the amendments
I think you’re right. But there are only minutes remaining on each.
Given the UC agreement that described the effect of agreeing to a motion to proceed to Ec.Stim., (not interrupt whatever is pending, which was known to be FISA), to turn around and interrupt what’s pending to permit 30 hours of post-cloture to run (on Ec. Stim.) amounts to Ec. Stim. interrupting whatever is pending.
I.e., agree, then break the agreement on a technicality. I call bad faith.
and it sure sounded like it was a planned action by the republicans. although, i missed bits, so i may have it wrong.
So it’s the bad faith that has Reid so worked up. Pity. No matter how often he plays Lucy and pulls the football on us, like Charlie Brown, I keep thinking next time he’ll at least hold the ball. Sigh. Optimism just doesn’t pay ; )
The Republicans actually have a lot of time. Hatch and Sessions want to weigh in, but they weren’t in town today.
Well, it’s not as if we didn’t see this coming. At least, I did, and I’m not the only one. Bury the votes under primary coverage, and hope that those not paying attention don’t hear about it.
It’s time to start pushing anti-immunity Senators to play hard for a delay in the vote, at very least until the candidates can show up in the Senate chamber.
Let Kyle have his way. Let there be a debate on the stim bill tomorrow and let FISA come up when we can hold EVERYONE accountable.
what day does the PAA expire?
15 Feb? They voted a 15 day extension and it was scheduled to die on Feb.1 ergo . . . unless I’m missing something.
Originally, Feb 1. Then there was a 15 day extension, so now Feb. 16.
Kyl: the ‘merkin people are tired of hearing complaints about constitutional violations.
Though I’d be happy for tomorrow to be all stimulus, no FISA.
Kyle is still and ass… they are not sensitive to the needs of the people but they are sensitive to the needs of GWB and corporate America!
Republicans are always being obstructionist
Republicans are always being obstructionist
The role/label of obstruction generally falls to the minority party, whichever it may be.
we’re just confused because we remember when the dems were in the minority… and we don’t remember much obstruction.
I know that but the proof is in the pudding… since they have become the minority they the best/worst records ever… they don’t care if it is in the best interest of the country!
thanks revdeb and jimwhite… just trying to thing about the timing for the house to act.
i know there are a lot of foot ball fans here… but is it ok if i complain about lautenberg right now?
yes! he needs to knock it off already. loved the superbowl. it’s OVER! and this is time for BUSINESS!
stfu already, lautenberg.
Please do, although now that we’re just killing time, it bothers me less than Schumer’s ridiculous interruption earlier.
Has anyone been audacious enough to point out the difficulties of separating foreign-foreign, foreign-domestic, and domestic-domestic calls and Internet traffic?
Boxer was brilliant. All over the map, but connecting all the dots. I was applauding through most of that.
now they’re doing a quorum call in ssssssssssllllllllllllloooooooooowwwwwwwww motion.
I hear Sherrod Brown’s gravely voice.
Sherrod Brown. he’s ALWAYS on topic, keeps it sharp! i like him, call him the Columbo guy senator.
hehe
Thank you Senator Sharrod Brown!… we must never forget the Vets as is currently being done… thanks to the conservatives who just want to use them and then just throw them away they now get only 2 years of medical care after they serve their time! It just makes me sick knowing what they have done in the name of profit and low taxes for the rich!
Anyone want to give a summary for those of us just getting home?
McConnell throwing a hissy fit about the stim. package. Reid doing kabuki. Kyle accusing dems of stalling stim vote until candidates return to grandstand. Other senators filling time while Reid and the repugs either smoke cigs. in the cloak room and laugh at all of us or they are doing some back of house horse trading. Meanwhile they are making sure that the candidates don’t have to cast FISA votes for the record.
Did I miss anything?
Blah, blah, blah.
Cloture vote to proceed to econ stimulus.
McConnell: not so fast.
Reid: Wah, you won’t let us vote tomorrow. You’re shallow.
McConnell: I’m really mad now.
Reid: I apologize.
Boxer: 30 hours to read a page and a half? Get real!
Kyl: I’m a jerk.
Durbin: Let’s try to get along.
Now, as RevDeb says, we are waiting for a UC on when to proceed to voting on both FISA and econ development. It looks like they really want the candidates to vote on econ stimulus but to hide from FISA.
HA HA HA JimWhite. that was an EXCELLENT recap! WTG!
He should be careful, grandma McConnell might hit him with his purse.
Sen. Amy Klobuchar rocks!!!
Thank you….I think.
It’s about time for me to re-enable live listening, I guess. Losing one’s home folder (which can even happen on a Mac) disappears all manner of stuff.
ack! you lost your home folder?? what a disaster!
it has to be somewhere. Those kinds of things don’t just disappear.
It happened quite a while back, but I’ve been rebuilding rather slowly. I should go ahead and try backing up while my whole home folder will fit on a pen drive—and then not lose the pen drive.
whole hard drive backups are the way to go. i use a program called superduper – but am still paranoid. i understand leopard’s time machine is highly recommended.
pday, thanks!
i’m with you- very, very glad to know that pow wow is still lurking here. and i will be watching for any comments by pow wow at glenn’s.