Mark, Mark, Mark!: No Wonder Meadows Balked at House Subpoena

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[NB: Check the byline, thanks. /~Rayne]

This isn’t going to be everybody’s cup of tea, but I couldn’t help think of this dubstep mix by Massachusetts artist ZMcD titled Mark Mark Mark.

It popped into my head while reading Hunter Walker’s latest piece in Rolling Stone, Leaked Texts: Jan. 6 Organizers Say They Were ‘Following POTUS’ Lead’.

Apparently there are text messages from the rally organizers Amy Kremer, Women For America First’s chair, and Kylie Jane Kremer, WAF’s executive director, which are incriminating:

… Two sources who were involved in planning the Ellipse rally previously told Rolling Stone they had extensive interactions with members of Trump’s team, including former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. The text messages provide a deeper understanding of what that cooperation entailed, including an in-person meeting at the White House. Rally organizers also described working with Trump’s team to announce the event, promote it, and grant access to VIP guests. A spokesperson for the former president did not respond to a request for comment on the record. …

Oh Mark, Mark, Mark!

No wonder he’s dragging his butt submitting to the House January 6 Committee’s subpoena.

… Two days later, Kremer texted some of the organizers to let them know she was temporarily getting off the bus to travel to Washington for a White House meeting.

“For those of you that weren’t aware, I have jumped off the tour for the night and am headed to DC. I have a mtg at the WH tomorrow afternoon and then will be back tomorrow night,” wrote Kremer. “Rest well. I’ll make sure the President knows about the tour tomorrow!”

The message describing Kremer’s White House meeting is one of several where she and Kylie, indicated they were in communication with Trump’s team. …

Kremer sent that text on November 30, 2020 about a December 1 meeting at the White House.

Six weeks later Kremer would be ordering appetizers and dinner at the Willard Intercontinental Hotel while insurrectionists continued to riot inside the Capitol Building. Mark Meadows will likely know this if he was copied in a group message sent by March to Save America/Women for America First rally organizers.

No wonder the committee and the House hasn’t yet voted to hold Meadows in contempt, sending him a tautly worded letter when he refused to comply.

This is Meadow’s chance to save his behind by looking into immunity because these text messages can’t shed a good light on him.

Perhaps he should call former Nixon White House counsel John Dean about this (what a pity he can’t call Jeb Stuart Magruder who like Dean was granted limited immunity for his cooperation during the Watergate investigation).

No matter whether he calls Dean or not, I sure hope Meadows has lawyered up.

And I sure hope he’s thought good and hard whether that slack-bottomed chronic golf cheat is worth his time and effort.

I certainly wouldn’t put faith in the support of the Kremers, as text messages indicate one of them got sloshed the evening of January 6, locked herself in a bathroom and then begged to be rescued in the early morning January 7.

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100 replies
  1. Rayne says:

    Where’s your cellphone(s), Mark, the ones used on/before January 6?

    At least Rolling Stone was nice enough to tell you in a roundabout way that if you lie the text messages will damn you. Hello, false statements and obstruction!

  3. Leoghann says:

    It’s hard for me to be objective about Mark Meadows. Anyone who spent the better part of two decades suborning and enabling a sexual predator is on my permanent shit list.

    • Rugger9 says:

      Meadows is not worth any sympathy whatsoever. Remember he was plotting (if these comms are accurate) to potentially injure / kill people he’d worked with for years in Congress (as a Teabagger, but still) just so he could prop up his then-current boss. If anything, because of that betrayal of his colleagues in addition to his nation he needs to get as enhanced a sentence as can be imposed.

  4. Zirc says:

    The Rolling Stone article focuses on Amy and Kylie Kremer and suggests they were afraid of the possibility of violence at the rally they weren’t organizing. In and of itself, I don’t see a lot in the article that implicates anyone in the violence. Of course, I don’t know everyone who was texting and what they said in those texts. The Kremers, however, seem like people with too much money and too much time pretending to be important. There may not be any there there.

    Zirc

    • Rayne says:

      The Kremers were tools to ensure a large enough body of riled-up Trumpists were at the Capitol to overwhelm law enforcement. They didn’t have to be directing violence to ensure conditions were ripe for violence.

      And they did participate in furthering a scheme to obstruct official government proceedings if they made no effort to stop the rally from moving toward restricted space at any time before, during, and after the meetings with persons in the White House. There’s no mention of concern for Congress’s security during and after having organized such large event.

      No, instead of expressing concerns about the violence they could certainly see on January 6 after the rally, they went back to the Willard Hotel where meetings organized by Steve Bannon had been held in order to celebrate, getting sloshed and generally avoiding doing anything to aid law enforcement.

      And somebody “leaked” the text messages because there’s a there there.

      EDIT: This photo community member harpie pointed to from the west entrance of the Capitol encapsulates what the Kremers were partially responsible for as March to Save America First rally organizers. This is what they were supposed to do, ensure there were enough angry Trumpists at the Capitol, especially the west entrance facing the Ellipse where speeches had been given.

      • harpie says:

        Yes, of all the photos I’ve seen, THAT one really affects me.
        It has a 2:00 PM timestamp.

        [I wish I knew who took that and from where.]

      • Franktoo says:

        Rayne wrote: “The Kremers were tools to ensure a large enough body of riled-up Trumpists were at the Capitol to overwhelm law enforcement. They didn’t have to be directing violence to ensure conditions were ripe for violence.”

        The large body of people were riled-up by Trump and the other speakers, not the Kremers. (Many arrived riled-up. That was the responsibility of Trump and those repeating his lies.) As the rally ended, TRUMP TOLD the crowd to go to Capitol hill to express their views. Let’s place the responsibility for attack on Trump, where it most belongs (IMO). Only if they knew Trump’s plans, the Kremers might be guilty of conspiracy. (Consider the analogous situation involving the organizers of a BLM rally that results in violence.)

        In marching to the Capitol, the rally violated the terms of their permit. Did this happen by accident or on purpose, or did those who obtained the permit choose not to inform Trump?

        Did the militias (some waiting at the Capitol) know Trump would be sending the crowd to the Capitol?

        It doesn’t sound to me like the text messages Rolling Stone is reporting are going to provide answers to these questions. Nor has 10 months of DoJ investigation.

        • Rayne says:

          This: “tools to ensure a large enough body” — re-read what I wrote. The Kremers’ role wasn’t incitement. It was organizing a swarm of warm bodies through a vehicle which looked innocuous on the face of it. To the average American a women’s socio-political group replete with pink logos looks like no special threat. It’s as if it hasn’t occurred to you (and others) this was a means to slip under domestic intelligence (ex. “It’s just some women’s group like that Women’s March in 2017. No big deal.”).

          If either of the Kremers knew and understood their role and helped further it without making any effort to prevent violence, they’re part of the conspiracy. If they knew the attendees they helped gather were going to enter the Capitol, they were part of the conspiracy.

          I no longer care if “[i]t doesnt sound to [you] like the text messages Rolling Stone is reporting are going to provide answers to these questions.” It’s not Rolling Stone’s job to clinch the investigation. It’s their job as media to tell the public what the public didn’t know — and in this case, one or more of the Kremers were meeting with one or more people in the White House, potentially including Trump’s Chief of Staff, and there’s communications to document some of this. The House January 6 Committee certainly has more than RS article addresses.

          As for the DOJ: this is the largest investigation they’ve ever handled. It’s in progress. You don’t like the speed? So noted. Move on.

        • YancyFaith says:

          Someone on Twitter tweeted loud & long about Mike Lindell’s political org (PAC?) underwriting Amy’s women for Trump group around the time of the attack on the Capitol.
          Things were so crazy that day, I didn’t drill down on the claim, but the screenshots looked legit to me. (FEC docs, IIRC.)

  5. harpie says:

    RS:

    The message describing [Amy] Kremer’s [12/1/20] White House meeting is one of several where she and Kylie, indicated they were in communication with Trump’s team. …

    Is RS talking about Trump’s White House [Administration] team OR Trump’s Campaign team [Should they even be AT the White House?]?

    There should be NO COORDINATION between them [Government and Politics].

  7. Frank Anon says:

    While the Kremer’s are deeply stereotypical of the kind of supporter the Trump Administration had, the Rolling Stone article gets near to what I think might be needed to prove a conspiracy to overthrow the government coming from the White House. There was an event at the ellipse – the Trump rally; there was an event at the Capitol – the Stop the Steal rally. If they were in any way coordinated, even through some kind of parallel play, then you can be sure there is an ultimate path to the Trump inside. However, this article doesn’t really make that connection stick. My personal belief is that Trump himself was aware of the aims of the Stop the Steal rally and directed his Ellipse attendees up to the Capitol to increase the numbers supporting those who were “true” invaders. But I think this can only be proved if investigators flip a Stone, a Tarrio, a Bannon, maybe a Meadows, and nowhere else. The Rolling Stone article is mildly interesting and sometimes funny, but not dispositive of anything

    • P J Evans says:

      MTG talking about the “planning meeting” in December at the WH. Why was she there? Why were they doing planning there?

    • Patient Observer says:

      Frank, you wrote:

      ***But I think this can only be proved if investigators flip a Stone, a Tarrio, a Bannon, maybe a Meadows, and nowhere else. The Rolling Stone article is mildly interesting and sometimes funny, but not dispositive of anything***

      In other words, limited value in Rolling Stone, absent success in rolling Stone.

      • Midtowngirl says:

        Ugh! My browser did a weird thing. I meant to say that Alex Jones is probably going to be key to busting it all wide open.
        He’s already under under investigation by the feds, his Info Wars associate, Owen Shroyer has been indicted, and he has implicated both himself and Trump in public statements (T asking him to lead the march from the Ellipse). Additionally, he doesn’t have the funds (and maybe the mental reserve, too – legal battles are exhausting) to put up a protracted legal battle due to the recent successful lawsuit by the Sandy Hook families.

        • timbo says:

          Lol. Alex Jones is likely more key to getting the whole thing written off as a feverish pipe-dream… with real pipes? Dude’s insane in the membrane.

  8. Pete T says:

    The many scenes of Tom and Greg musing about life in prison on Succession keeps flashing in my mind.

    Pete
    PS
    The last episode with the R donor class meeting to choose the next candidate/president is a hoot.

  9. harpie says:

    1/4/21 MEETING AT WH
    From J6 COMMITTEE 9/29/21 letter to former Trump camp. official Katrina PIERSON]: https://january6th.house.gov/sites/democrats.january6th.house.gov/files/210929%20Katrina%20Pierson%20Letter.pdf

    […] Specifically, it has been reported that you participated in a meeting with President Trump in the Oval Office on January 4, 2021, at which he asked if another rally could be arranged “where people like [Ali] Alexander and Roger Stone could speak.”4 You reportedly “assured them there was” such a rally,5 and in fact that rally took place on January 5, 2021, at Freedom Plaza, organized by Cindi Chafian through The Eighty Percent Coalition.6 Accordingly, the Select Committee seeks both documents and your deposition testimony regarding these and other matters that are within the scope of the Select Committee’s inquiry. […]

  11. John Paul Jones says:

    I found this passage in the RS article quite heartening:

    “An attorney familiar with the [Jan 6] investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the ongoing probe, told Rolling Stone the congressional investigators have obtained ‘tons of’ group chats from organizers.”

    • Rayne says:

      Heh. I think that was implied in the communications the Jan 6 committee sent to Meadows; they’ve boxed him in by asking about his phone knowing full well what comms he’d received and at least some of what he’d sent.

      Once foot dragging is done and court finds no executive privilege applicable, if Meadows hasn’t complied with subpoena including his phone then he’s obstructing.

  12. mossyrock1 says:

    if the rally was legal why is it illegl that mark meadows knew the people involved in the organizing of the rally ? i undrstand he lied about having interactions with them but as far i know its not illegal to lie. i dont understand the finer points. having hors d;oeuvres during the insurrection is normal for these traitors.and wishing pence dead is probably normal too. but what did meadows actually do ? he knew it was happening. he wanted it but thats not action. i know he was part of the conspiracy and that is treasonous but i dont undrstand why knowing the people who threw the rally is illegal. or are you simply stating that witholding phone records is where his actions are jailworthy ? besides the conspiravy to overthrow our government. is that in the texts ?

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      For one thing, the “rally” was not a single event, but a collection of events, some of which were illegal, which means that conspiring in connection with them would also be illegal.

    • Rayne says:

      Wowowow dude. You are way over your head here. You’re so out of your depth I don’t know if you can be saved.

      Give me a few to type up a summary of Meadows’ exposure.
      __________________
      EDIT: This summary is as brief and simple as I can make it for now, and it doesn’t include all the possible crimes nor does it name all the conspirators and useful tools (i.e. persons who entered and attacked the Capitol). It may be missing points but I’ve only got so much time right now to spend on this.

      Members of at least one or more possibly interrelated conspiracies to overturn the 2020 election drafted plans to obstruct official government proceedings — the certification of the election.

      The plans included attacking the Capitol Building to disrupt the election certification, delay the certification, insert an alternate slate of illegitimate electors, and certify results based on those false electors.

      The plans may also have included intimidating the Vice President to coerce his cooperation with the conspiracy; may also have included coercing state officials to effect changes to election results; may have included intimidating at least half of Congress (18 USC 610 Coercion of Political Activity).

      The attack on the Capitol included at least two fronts: a wave of rally attendees on the west side of the Capitol, and a smaller but more focused wave of insurrectionists on the east side.

      The March to Save America rally generated a large body of insurrectionists who flooded the west side and overwhelmed law enforcement, incited and encouraged by Trump’s and others’ speeches at the Ellipse. The insurrectionists on the east side may have been organized in tandem with the Women for America First effort.

      There were insufficient law enforcement to protect the Capitol; the National Guard did not arrive in a timely manner. Both LEO and NatGuard may have been suppressed by participants in the conspiracy.

      Based on evidence from text messages (and likely other supporting evidence and/or testimony), Mark Meadows is believed to have participated in the conspiracy by communicating and/or meeting with other conspiracy members, including planners and organizers of the rally/ies. What steps he took inside the White House to the benefit of Trump’s continued campaign to retake the presidency may be Hatch Act violations (5 USC 7323, 7324).

      The full extent of Meadows’ apparent participation in the conspiracy can’t be readily determined based on what the public has seen so far — not to be confused with what the Jan 6 Committee has seen/heard — because Meadows has refused to comply with the House January 6 Committee’s subpoena for records and testimony.

      The refusal may be deemed contempt of Congress just as Steve Bannon’s refusal to comply with a subpoena was deemed contempt of Congress.

      If Meadows complies/doesn’t comply with the subpoena but claims executive privilege, that privilege may be deemed inapplicable by a court. The current executive already refused to exert privilege. Trump is not the executive and cannot claim privilege; Trump can’t claim executive privilege on anything related to his presidential campaign, and any residual privilege attached to executive actions may be subject to fraud/crime exception.

      If Meadows still refuses to comply, he may be not only in contempt but charged with obstruction (18 USC 1505) if enough evidence and testimony from other sources show he is withholding material information.

      If Meadows complies with the subpoena but doesn’t answer truthfully, he could be charged with false statements (18 USC 1001).

      If Meadows testifies but lies under oath in response to the subpoena, he could be charged with perjury (18 USC 1621).

      And if during the course of the investigation by either the January 6 Committee or by DOJ reveals Meadows was involved in a plot which threatened the VP or intended worse, boy howdy.

      You want a past example of a White House staffer who was prosecuted for conspiracy, obstruction, perjury? Look up H. R. Haldeman.

    • Rugger9 says:

      It IS illegal to lie to federal investigators, it’s what Martha Stewart went to federal prison for doing about some business transactions. Try again…

  13. rattlemullet says:

    Even with what seems like a mountain of evidence piling on that crimes have been committed by the leaders of the Republican Party against America, I am not optimistic that any of them will be convicted or even pay a price politically. Republicans have been skating justice in earnest since Regan for crimes against America. The Regan group- Iran-Contra, Nicaraguan Contra funding, Aids. Bush 2 cabal – Iraq invasion, need more. Trump- It hurts to even list the many crimes. The committee and DOJ only have basically 10 months to pull it all together. It seems easier than ever to delay justice these days if you’re rich or in a position of power. Now we are in a time when facts do not matter and lying is not challenged. I think the courts are our only hope but the republicans have done their best to make a mockery of judicial appointments and it is straining the judicial system.

    • gmoke says:

      ” Republicans have been skating justice in earnest since Regan for crimes against America.”

      I’d date it to Nixon and Kissinger’s little errand for Anna Chennault to get the South Vietnamese government to slow walk at the Paris Peace talks. LBJ knew it was a traitorous crime and told Everett Dirksen to get them to cut it out but he didn’t want to make this mess public.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MVdmV3Wl60

  14. Savage Librarian says:

    Meadows’ Mark

    Try to remember the kind of November,
    Madness aglow and not so mellow.
    Try to remember the kind of November,
    Grass was green and greed was yellow.

    Try to remember the kind of November,
    You a pretender & shallow fellow,
    Try to remember, and if you remember,
    Then swallow…

    Swallow, swallow your pride.

    Try to remember when you surrender,
    that America wept like the willow,
    Try to remember after your bender,
    that schemes were kept by your pillow.

    Try to remember that dicey text sender
    with an ember about to billow.
    Try to remember, and if you remember,
    Then swallow…

    Swallow, swallow your pride.

    Deep in December, try to remember,
    although you know the snow will follow,
    Deep in December, try to remember
    who was hurt and whose heart hollow.

    Deep in December, try to remember
    fires of November that made us bellow,
    Deep in December, yes, remember
    what y’all owe…

    Y’all owe, y’all owe archives of time.

    (with all due respect to Tom Jones)

    • Leoghann says:

      Tom Jones, a Texas Panhandle boy! I didn’t realize it until just now, but the first person to sing Try to Remember was Detective Briscoe.

      Thanks, S Librarian. I sang it all the way through.

  15. punaise says:

    OT: dress for success:

    The judge also took issue with Parnell’s presentation.

    “He dressed very casually for his appearances in court, in blue jeans and untucked plaid shirts, which did not show respect for the seriousness of the occasion,” Arner wrote. “When testifying he looked mainly in the direction of his attorneys and towards members of the news media in the back of the courtroom, rather than at me.”

    • Rugger9 says:

      Parnell not only lost the case (he only has partial physical custody, probably one week out of a month but I don’t have the order in hand) but also suspended his US Senate campaign after groveling to Individual-1 to avoid being called a quitter.

      However, it seems to me that a lot of these MAGA types aren’t very respectful to the judges either in dress, demeanor or sanity in their filings. Never mind that a judge can ruin their day with the thwack of a gavel, do they really think DJT can pardon them now?

      • punaise says:

        I’ve never been on the receiving end of a judge’s attention other as a respectfully dressed prospective juror, but I would call this an own-goal lack of situational awareness / failure to read the room.

        • Leoghann says:

          That could be said for any number of his other performances, e.g.: leaving his pregnant wife on the highway after directing her to get an abortion, hitting his child hard enough to leave handprints, etc., etc., etc.

  16. Molly Pitcher says:

    From the Washington Post:
    “Roger Stone and Alex Jones subpoenaed by House committee investigating Jan. 6 attack on Capitol by pro-Trump mob
    The select panel issued subpoenas to five individuals, seeking records and testimony. Stone, a longtime ally of former president Donald Trump, reportedly was in Washington on Jan. 5 and 6, the committee said. Jones, the far-right radio host, reportedly helped organize the Trump rally on the Ellipse.”

  17. harpie says:

    From the RS, Hunter Walker article Rayne links to in this post:

    On January 3, Trump tweeted an announcement that he would be attending the Ellipse rally. Trump also retweeted posts from Lawrence and Kremer advertising the event.

    LAWRENCE is one of the people who were SUBPOENAED by the J6 Committee today. Her boyfriend Dustin STOCKTON was subpoenaed too. Here’s the article RS links to in that section:

    The Bonnie and Clyde of MAGA World For a decade, Dustin Stockton and Jennifer Lawrence had surfed the wave of populist-right politics like few other people in America. Then came Jan. 6.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/19/dustin-stockton-jen-lawrence-trump-profile-522823
    11/19/21

  18. harpie says:

    #J6TL TL of the article:
    11/28/20 Kremer texted fellow activists in a group chat. “Welcome to the March for Trump bus tour.” // “We are going to save the world!”
    11/29/20 March For Trump began a bus tour
    [Group Amy KREMER started in 2019 against first TRUMP impeachment]
    11/30/20 Kremer texted “For those of you that weren’t aware, I have jumped off the tour for the night and am headed to DC. I have a mtg at the WH tomorrow afternoon [Tuesday 12/1/20] and then will be back tomorrow night.” // “Rest well. I’ll make sure the President knows about the tour tomorrow!”
    12/13/20 Kremer texted “still waiting to hear from the WH on the photo op with the bus.”
    12/27/20 Amy to Kylie Kremer: “Kylie, you need to slow your roll on the wine RIGHT NOW.”
    “We have so much work to do and not enough time to get it done.”
    AMY to Group [not sure of date]: “There will be no more drinking on this trip.”
    12/31/20 Kylie [re: Wild Protest] “all the people who aren’t invited or POTUS won’t be associated with.” // “How do yall not get it? Seriously. Everyone needs to get off that damn bus because you are all going crazy focused on things that don’t matter.” // “I am very frustrated and feel like you guys have NO IDEA the hoops we have been jumping through 24-7 lately. Google events at the Ellipse. Send me pictures that you can find of anything other than the Christmas tree light or menorah lighting that are official WH events. THEY DONT HAPPEN.” // “Y’all this has got to stop. The back and forth. If anyone doesn’t like what … team trump and I are doing then you don’t have to come to January 6th.”
    1/1/21 [before the Ellipse rally was publicly announced] Kylie messaged group chat: [she was still working on the permits] “just FYI – we still can’t tweet out about the ellipse.”
    “We are following POTUS’ lead.”
    1/3/21 March For Trump activist Dustin Stockton texted one of the team’s groups to ask who was “handling” rally credentials for VIPs.
    KYLIE: “It’s a combination of us and WH.”
    1/3/21[?] Stockton’s fiancee, Jennifer Lawrence, had a similar question when she asked a chat group where media credential requests for the Ellipse rally were going after being submitted on the group’s website.
    KYLIE: “To campaign.” [PIERSON?] “They are handling all.”
    1/3/21 TRUMP tweeted an announcement that he would be attending the Ellipse rally. Trump also Retweeted posts from Lawrence and Kremer advertising the event.
    1/5/21 [AM] Kremer texted the organizers: “we are about to be part of a pivotal and historic moment in our nation’s history.”
    “Thank you for taking this journey with Women For America First. I love you all and am grateful for each of you.”
    “Let’s go save the Republic!”
    1/5/21 Kylie Kremer speaks on C-Span TV’s Washington Journal [C-SPAN’s morning call-in program. Live every day from 7-10am ET with guests taking your calls, texts, and tweets.] [screenshot] [Is this the WILLARD Hotel Presidential Suite?]

    1/6/21
    AM [Kremer group volunteer]:     “Ali [ALEXANDER] trying to rearrange our women for america seats.
    Stockton: “Stop that shit.”
    8:30 AM [approx..] KYLIE KREMER kicks off the RALLY
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?507744-1/rally-electoral-college-vote-certification

    [3:15] KYLIE JANE KREMER “What’s up, deplorables!”
    [3:45] This all started from a little thing called the StopTheSteal Facebook group.
    [4:35] I am so honored for the coalition of partners that helped put together this truly historic event right here in the White House lawn. […]

    5:30 PM [WILLARD Hotel Presidential Suite] Amy Kremer “We ordered dinner again tonight. Sorry, but we forgot to take orders in the chaos of the event this morning, so we just ordered the same thing as last night. I figured that was better than not eating. Lol,”
    “Cheese & Charcuterie should be here at 6PM and dinner around 7PM.”
    6:18 PM https://twitter.com/hunterw/status/1346959332223680512

    The National Guard has moved in with riot gear. I will post footage ASAP. [VIDEO]]

    [TIME?] WFAF Statement on Violence at the Capitol
    https://wfaf.org/statement-violence-capitol-hill/

    1/7/21
    Shortly before noon [Group chat re: possible WFAF press conference to denounce the J6 violence]

    Amy Kremer: “I don’t think it is wise for us to talk to the press or have a press conference. Our statement yesterday was strong enough and we need to leave it at that.”
    “Nothing god will come from us talking to CBS or any other mainstream media outlet. I hope you guys understand and agree.”

  19. Fran of the North says:

    At some point in the early aftermath of J6, I saw something about the Kremer’s organizing for the events. Not sure exactly what or where, but at that point I was so angry it prompted me to DTweet Kylie and ask her whether or not she was going to like jail.

    I’m pleased as punch that those chickens are coming home to roost.

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