“What Did the President Do and What Do His Lawyers Claim He Was Thinking?”
Ever since Richard Nixon, the big question one asks of presidential involvement in scandals is about the cover-up: “what did the president know and when did he know it?” Not so Trump in the investigation into his campaign’s conspiracy with Russia.
Robert Mueller’s prosecutors are already asking about the president’s actions: “What did the president do and what was he thinking when he did it?” WaPo describes the Trump team’s effort to dodge such questions by offering a summary of what his lawyers claim he did and was thinking.
The written materials provided to Mueller’s office include summaries of internal White House memos and contemporaneous correspondence about events Mueller is investigating, including the ousters of national security adviser Michael Flynn and FBI Director James B. Comey. The documents describe the White House players involved and the president’s actions.
Special counsel investigators have told Trump’s lawyers that their main questions about the president fall into two simple categories, the two people said: “What did he do?” and “What was he thinking when he did it?”
Trump’s lawyers expect Mueller’s team to ask whether Trump knew about Flynn’s communications with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak during the presidential transition, for example, and what instructions, if any, the president gave Flynn about the contact, according to two advisers.
Trump said in February that he fired Flynn because he had misled Vice President Pence about his contact with Kislyak. He said he fired Comey because he had mishandled an investigation of Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.
CNN’s version of the same story seems to suggest such a summary is something they’ve already done, that what was new about last week was a sit-down with Watergate lawyer James Quarles.
As President Donald Trump’s reaction to special counsel Robert Mueller grows more irate by the day, attorneys on both sides sat down last week in a rare face-to-face discussion about the topics investigators could inquire of the President. It was the first in-person meeting after several weeks of informal discussions between the two sides, according to two sources familiar with the talks.
Mueller’s team added granularity to the topics it originally discussed with the defense team months ago, like the firing of FBI Director James Comey, according to one of the sources.
[snip]
The President’s attorneys sent the special counsel a summary of evidence they had turned over to prosecutors already, a practice they’ve followed multiple times throughout the investigation. Mueller himself didn’t attend the meeting. But prosecutors including former Watergate prosecutor James Quarles III gave Trump’s lawyers enough detail that the President’s team wrote a memo with possible questions they expect to be asked of him.
In addition to Trump’s involvement in directing Mike Flynn to ask Sergey Kislyak to defer any response to the new sanctions imposed in December 2016, CNN says that Jeff Sessions’ involvement in firing Comey is also on the list of questions they have for the president.
This time around, for instance, the prosecutors said they would ask about Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ involvement in the Comey dismissal and what Trump knew about national security adviser Michael Flynn’s phone calls with then-Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in late December 2016.
[snip]
CNN reported in January that Mueller’s team had given the President’s lawyers general topics for an interview, such as Trump’s request that Comey drop the investigation into Flynn, his reaction to Comey’s May 2017 testimony on Capitol Hill, and Trump’s contact with intelligence officials about the Russia investigation.
A source familiar with the talks said more recent discussions about Trump’s interview also touched on Sessions and Flynn. Sessions previously spoke to Mueller’s team while investigators looked into possible obstruction of justice. And during the transition, Flynn had spoken to Kisklyak about sanctions and the United Nations, then lied to investigators about the calls before Trump fired him. Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to investigators and agreed to cooperate with Mueller in December.
The questions about Sessions and Flynn are both interesting because of recent events.
First, CNN’s story reporting an interest in Sessions’ role in Comey’s firing came out after the report that Sessions and the president traveled separately yesterday to the opioid event they appeared at together. I found that odd at first — Trump should be happy that Sessions fired Andy McCabe for him last Friday. Perhaps Trump is mad that by firing McCabe, Sessions and Rod Rosenstein have taken one excuse he could use to fire both of them off the table. Or perhaps Sessions has realized that he needs to avoid talking to Trump about his own conversations with prosecutors. But if Sessions has become a witness against Trump and the discussions last week made that clear, then it puts the president in a particularly exquisite bind, because the Senate would not take kindly if Trump fired one of their own after he went to such lengths to fire McCabe.
The separate flight is all the more interesting given the news that three witnesses have testified that Sessions was actually more supportive of Trump’s outreach to Russia than he himself (and JD Gordon) has claimed.
And given Mueller’s apparent efforts to confirm what has long been obvious — that KT McFarland was relaying Trump’s orders to Flynn on what to say to Kislyak back in December 2016, consider Mike Flynn’s odd campaign appearance last Friday. Amid stories that he’s beginning to rebuild his life, Flynn started a campaign speech for a right wing nut job attempting to unseat Maxine Waters by alluding to his unfair treatment in an unfair process.
“I’m not here to complain about who has done me wrong or how unfair I’ve been treated or how unfair the entire process has been,” Flynn said to a small audience, which laughed at his remark, though Flynn did not.
Flynn then went on to reflect his role in getting Trump elected.
“All of us are imperfect,” he said. “Heck, I used to introduce … Trump during our various campaign stops as an imperfect candidate. I mean, clearly, he’s not a traditional politician. But his ‘Make America Great Again’ philosophy energized the country enough to get him overwhelmingly elected.”
“Whether we like it or not, that’s what happened,” Flynn added.
Particularly given the others who’ve endorsed Omar Navarro, like Roger Stone and Alex Jones, you’d think this was all a dig at Mueller, and it may well be. Except that Jared Kushner had an opportunity to exonerate Flynn last fall; his failure to do so is what led Flynn to flip, leading to these questions about whether Trump ordered Flynn to ask the Russians to delay their response to sanctions.
Now, any confirmation that the president ordered Flynn to ask Kislyak to delay his response on one level makes Flynn’s effort less damning: it’s one thing for an incoming National Security Advisor to freelance in trying to undermine the incumbent’s policies. It’s another thing for the incoming president to do so.
But contrary to the obstruction narrative that every fool has been repeating, Mueller is not just interested in how and why Jim Comey got fired. He’s also interested in why Trump fired Flynn. That question becomes more pressing if the president ordered Flynn to chat up Kislyak, and if the president ordered Flynn to lie to hide what he had done (leading to his lie to the FBI). Why not just admit that that was incoming policy? Why not just admit to the FBI that Flynn was acting on Trump’s orders? Instead of doing that, Flynn lied and Trump tried instead to thwart the investigation into Flynn, up to and including firing Comey.
Why fire Comey just before the meeting with the Russians and then brag about it to them?
For months, credulous journalists have been distinguishing between the president’s presumed obstruction and the substantive conspiracy others were being accused of, as if no Trump flunkies were involved in the cover-up and Trump was walled off from the conspiracy. But that distinction has never held up, especially not given the interest in why Trump fired Flynn.
“What did the president do and what the fuck was he thinking when he did it?” are questions not about the cover-up, but about the substantive crime.
And that’s the question Mueller’s Watergate prosecutor has now posed to the president’s lawyers.
Typo?
Trump ordered Flynn to ask the Saudis to delay
I believe the conversation was with the Russians, about delaying their response to American sanctions about to be imposed on them before Trump took office. For whatever reason, they did.
Unlike his interest in America, which he treats like a rent-protected tenant in a building he wants to flip, Trump has been consistent and fastidious in letting the Russians know he has their back. An odd reversal of normal presidential behavior for the past hundred years. That presidential action may well be part of any substantive crimes Mueller’s team discovers.
I would add that the ends never justify the means, and the cover-up is never as bad as the crime, for the same reason that obstruction is never as bad as murder or taking us to war on false pretenses.
“leading to these questions about whether Trump ordered Flynn to ask the Saudis to delay their response to sanctions.”
“Saudis” is probably a proofreading problem. If you really mean Saudis, I’m confused. If so, could you explain their relevance?
Rosenstein is the overseer of the investigation, and one might assume, a witness, as far as obstruction. Who asked him to write up reasons for firing Comey? Or did his name just appear on the pretext with Sessions’? Did Trump involve him or did Sessions? Did he offer up a ‘reason’ on his own?
It’s strange that Flynn is out and about still, in essence, plugging Trump for president. In his predicament, you’d think he would lay low. Any chance he’s out there collecting info for Mueller as part of his deal? Or is he really just the whackjob some of us suspected he is?
I suspect Flynn is broke and not entertaining many remunerative opportunities. A chance to make a few bucks flogging a certain loser couldn’t be turned down.
I’m also interested in how quickly Rosenstein hired Mueller. It happened so quick that it seems possible to me that they were having discussions for awhile, well before the announcement of Mueller’s hire. I wonder if Mueller learned something that was so compelling that made him jump so quickly at this job.
It is plausible to me that Rosenstein, Comey and Mueller all discussed the possibility of Rosenstein appointing Mueller prior to Comey’s testimony to Congress. This would explain how Rosenstein has been able to rebuff calls for him to recuse despite being a fact witness: he needs to stay in place to protect Mueller.
1. The Trump-Russians meeting at the WH, sans US witnesses, has always bothered me. Have we ever been able to substantiate that that is actually what DT said? We only have the Russians’ version? Disinformation?
2. Flynn is a bundle of resentments. And he is not wealthy. Obviously an easy mark.
3. I’m just as interested in why Trump HIRED Flynn. Just because Ivanka said so? What changed between Daughters’ endorsement and Jared’s backstab? (As they say in the business, “You don’t make money when you sell real estate, you make money when you buy real estate.”)
Your #1. We know the press were barred. Do we know that no one else from the WH was in the meeting?
See here: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/trump-russia-meeting-american-reporters-blocked.html
Photo shows many who were there. And the WH photographer was reported to have taken photos but not made them public:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/11/russians-fail-disclose-its-official-photographer-works-tass-news-agency/101543498/
It’s the hour-long meeting of Trump with Putin at the G20 (with no one else from the US and a Russian translator) that has always piqued my interest. (Another kettle of fish, to be sure, but possibly crucial as it occurred just before Trump was on the plane, huddled with Hope, trying to parse how to explain Jr’s meeting with the Russians at Trump Tower – e.g. what to tell The NY Times.)
If I’m not mistaken think emptywheel and others have already deduced that Putin gave Trump the adoption cover story in that conversation
Thank you! That was always my supposition.
But what else were they discussing? For a solid hour. Also what made Trump late for dinner that night? Talking to whom? (Likely about the Times story about to break.)
So many questions… (I love Marcy’s questions.)
Yes. It’s like an attendee’s ballet. Who was there, who wasn’t? Goes for the meetings you and I mentioned, plus June 9, plus the soirées at Mar a Lago. Also, is it just me, or were the methods mentioned by Mr Nix of CA on the YouTube videos oddly reminiscent of DT’s ongoing modus operandi? I mean with respect to the measures they take to insure they are not connected in any way to the dirty business at hand.
The tete-a-tete between Trump and Putin occurred in a public space that would have been available in advance to German IC. Is it likely the conversation was recorded and passed on to USIC and then to Mueller?
The tell with this gang is “Why did he/she say that?” So when Flynn says:
-” I mean, clearly, he’s not a traditional politician. But his ‘Make America Great Again’ philosophy energized the country enough to get him overwhelmingly elected.”
– “Whether we like it or not, that’s what happened,” Flynn added.
I wonder where does Flynn fit in with Jared and Cambridge Analytica?
Trump claimed that he fired Comey over supposedly mishandling a Clinton investigation and claimed to the Russian ambassador that he fired Comey because he was a “nut job”, Trump couldn’t stop thinking about him, and because he “had this Russia thing hanging over him”. Both could be true – one does not seem exclupatory and the other leads to obstruction. But Trump would have claimed that Comey mishandled any investigation of Clinton if he did anything but arrest her, put her in jail, and throw away the key. (In Duterte fashion, arrest and punish first, try later.)
Why separate flights?
1. They don’t get along.
2. They had conflicting schedules
3. Continuity of government concern – don’t want too many senior leaders on one plane.
4. Sessions avoiding incidents where he and DJT would be alone, so as to avoid more opportunities for Mueller to question him about this or that.
If I were Sessions, I would only be communicating with DJT by (1) email or (2) on telephone with another, fully-cleared witness recording the conversation or (3) taped conversations. I don’t know whether I’d tell DJT about the witness or taping, depending on the legalities. But the day-to-day operations of government don’t really require frequent, in-depth conversations between President and AG. The system is meant to work that way so as to avoid excessive executive involvement in criminal justice and law enforcement matters, with the subsequent possibility of cases tainted by Presidential involvement.
But I surely wouldn’t be leaving myself open to DJT making up a story about me later, so as to save his own hide.
“Why separate flights?”
To see if Marcy is paying attention! ;-)
Of course I agree with your suppositions – from #4 on.
I’m confused. I may be (probably am) wrong, but given the sensitivity It seems unlikely Mueller would try piecemeal the investigation and plan in advance to ask the President to testify more than once. If that is correct, and the scope of the questions is accurately reflected in the Post and CNN reports:
“CNN reported in January that Mueller’s team had given the President’s lawyers general topics for an interview, such as Trump’s request that Comey drop the investigation into Flynn, his reaction to Comey’s May 2017 testimony on Capitol Hill, and Trump’s contact with intelligence officials about the Russia investigation. A source familiar with the talks said more recent discussions about Trump’s interview also touched on Sessions and Flynn. Sessions previously spoke to Mueller’s team while investigators looked into possible obstruction of justice. And during the transition, Flynn had spoken to Kisklyak about sanctions…”
then it seems Mueller is primarily looking for evidence of obstruction and not conspiracy. For example, no questions about the Trump Tower meeting, knowledge of communications with Wikileaks, Bannon – CA- the St Petersburg indictments. Am I reading the tea leaves right? Can questions about the Flynn firing in and of itself substantiate a conspiracy case? Of course the description of the questions is coming from the White House and not the SC, but still
“because the Senate would not take kindly if Trump fired one of their own after he went to such lengths to fire McCabe.”
Does Trump really care about possible reactions of the Senate? Doubtful imo…
Honest question – Is Sessions popular enough with GOP Senators that his firing would result in the GOPers doing anything about it? I don’t see them doing anything other than spewing out some stern sound bytes.
I think about it like this — there’s enough unease in the Senate Republican caucus about Trump’s behavior that, especially now that they have their tax cut, have gutted ACA, and have thoroughly torn down significant federal financial and environmental regulations, a Sessions firing might be the political cover they feel they need to make the move from being “deeply troubled” by Trump, to actually doing something about him.
I fully admit this is wishful thinking, given the abundant evidence that some quotes about being “deeply troubled” or “gravely concerned” is all they’ve mustered thus far. But we have seen numerous examples of the “fraternity” of the Senate — not the least of which are a bunch of shitheel Dems supporting the latest bank deregulation bill. It’s not out to sea to think that Trump doing Sessions raw would cause a backlash among that frat, after Sessions and his brothers in the Senate have repeatedly bent over backwards and risked their own political (and sometimes legal) hides for this White House.
Is it likely that there is a record of Mueller’s asking Flynn at whose instruction he was dealing with the Russians?
You could start by untangling the picture of National Security insiders in Jim White’s 11/29/17 EW post. This is what convinced me that all of this Russia collusion was happening way before Trump with Washington/Military insiders wanting to change the direction of Hillary/Kerry/Obama’s foreign policy and profit handsomely by getting in on the ground floor of huge capital investments.
Micheal Zeldin was markedly skeptical/cautious about CNN reporting on the matter of the topics discussed as potential focii for the Special Counsel interviews of Trump.
He reasoned that the sourcing for this was obviously only the WH or Trump lawyers, and they are only interested in shaping perceptions and boxing in the special counsel so far as possible.
Thus the questions become why are team Trump highlighting these topics as being the “hot issues” from the lawyers face to face? Might it be that they feel comfortable with their playbook on these matters? Are team Trump also seeding the ground to cry foul later along the line, to avoid moredifficult questions on stickier topics?
The Post has a story up that the White House is trying to recruit Theodore Olson (again).
Is there a report that anybody but Joe DiGenova is on board? No?
Quite the opposite: Olson’s firm put out a statement saying “Not gonna happen, no way, no how.”
Or legalese to that effect.
LOL. That was the quickest ever shoot-down of a trial balloon. The second Post story followed within two hours of the first.
Whacky funster Tuesday at the WaPo:
“The efforts to hire Olson, along with diGenova, underscore how the president is seeking veteran lawyers with gravitas to contend with the experienced prosecutors on Mueller’s team
>> while adding hard-charging figures who can defend him on television, the people said.”
I want the best: I’m president! That guy Spencer Tracy played?!
Dead. Both dead.
Matlock?!
Fictional. And dead.
Who’s left?!
Well, Olson, but you alread-
Tell him, Your president needs you!! Leak it so he thinks it’s duty!!
He’s not stupi-
Wait, what: back talk?!
Consider it leaked. But just in case …
I really deserve a wartime consigliere like Pop had!!
Yer killing me.
You mean Ephram Zimbalist Jr isn’t replacing Rosenstein? But I had it from reliable sources…
I have a sense that one thing is missing in all the talk about the SC office/WH lawyers conversations – the effect on Trump, ahead of his sit-down with Mueller et al.
On the one hand, there’s an element of Mueller tipping his hand: “here’s what we’re going to be talking about.” This gives his lawyers and staff a chance to refresh memories and dig through things. They can try to prep Trump, so that his answers stay short and direct, and don’t wander off into things they don’t want him talking about. In that sense, Mueller is giving up at least part of the element of surprise.
On the other hand, he’s dangling these subjects in front of Trump, and forcing him to wonder. Why these subjects, and why not X, Y, and Z? What has he already heard from others about this? What documents might he have? What might have been picked up via regular wiretaps, intelligence services’ eavesdropping programs, or other methods?
Trump does not do well with questions like these. They irritate him, as he has no way of knowing what the answers are. He might have guesses, but not rock-solid answers, and he doesn’t like that.
Mueller is also making Trump wonder about how he should answer. Viewing Trump’s deposition in his civil fight with Jeffrey Zacharian, it is clear Trump does not handle questions well, and his lawyers will no doubt be pressing him HARD to keep things short and direct — again, two things that do not come easily to Trump.
Most of all, though, Mueller is making Trump wonder about when all of this will actually go down. Next week? Three weeks from now? Two months from now? This is the piece that will drive Trump up a wall.
All that time to think. All that time to wonder. All that time to ponder what, exactly, Mueller already has. All that time to stew at not being able to make it go away.
All that time to lash out at his lawyers. All that time to lash out at his staff. All that time to lash out at anyone who looks at him sideways. All that time to lash out at Mexicans, Crooked Hillary, Nancy Pelosi, Low IQ Maxine Waters, the Lyin’ Media with the cameras in the back . . .
All that time.
All that time is a good tool in Mueller’s toolbox.
Oh, and there are a million kids coming to hang out on his front lawn this weekend and lecture him about guns. That will help Trump’s mood a lot, too.
This is a genuine question, not rhetorical… could it be that SCO is concerned with the fallout of Trump lying under oath?
I ask this because it would dovetail with EW’s repeated pointing out that SCO isn’t about obstruction, they are about the actual conspiracy. Does an unprepared Trump, liable to lying under oath for no reason other than lying being what he’s most experienced at, risk kicking up tribal affiliations in spite of a robust, underlying conspiracy case?
It is obviously different in kind and degree from the Clinton controversy. But it seems similar to me in the sense that, the political tribalism that was stoked by the “gotcha” mentality of the Starr investigation really did a lot to cause liberals to dig in and ignore some of the legitimately problematic facts of the case. Legal or not, the position that Clinton put Lewinski in is incredibly problematic. Maybe that is easy to see and to say in the current “me too” moment, but it doesn’t make the point any less true — he did something incredibly unethical, and liberals largely allowed the tribalism of the ultimate vote on the articles of impeachment to cloud their judgment on what kind of person Bill Clinton really was/is.
I’m not talking about getting Trump on perjury, but on conspiracy. Given Trump’s performance in the Zacharian deposition, he is liable to go off on a tangent that reveals things that he shouldn’t, and quite likely doesn’t realize that he shouldn’t. More than once, his lawyer interrupted to say he shouldn’t answer, and Trump overrode his lawyer, to the detriment of his case.
From the standpoint of a defense attorney, and completely separate from the case at hand, Trump is *not* a good client to put in front of opposing counsel.
Gotcha! SteveB’s reply also helped clarify the thought.
There is at least one advantage to Mueller in identifying to Trump areas of focus for their questions and that their questions will include “what did you do? And what were you thinking when you did it”.
That advantage is that it limits Trumps scope to prevaricate or gish gabble. By pinning down prepared answers to prepared questions, it is less likely Trumps tendency to evade by meandering will serve him well on the follow up questions.
While Trumps lawyers will have gamed out responses to various anticipated lines of examination flowing from the pre prepared answers, from what we are told about Trump it seems unlikely that he will be either studious or disciplined in such in depth prep.
Getting Trump on record answering closed questions with the minimum ambiguity, seems to me to be a reasonable starting point for anyone preparing to skewer him in due course
And the president needs so many lawyers why? Given Trump’s credit rating, his lawyers had better demand payment in advance. If Don’s running a little short, he can whistle up a delivery from Panama.
Trump must think that the more lawyers he has, the better his legal defense will be. I don’t think it works that way. Not when his lawyers disagree and he has no ability to choose between conflicting suggestions. Not when he doesn’t listen to their advice. In the end, this looks like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Payment? I think Trump can make a deal to cover that. It would go something like this:
“You lawyers like golf, right? How about I make everyone on my case a member at one of my clubs, and cover your dues and greens fees for the next 10 years? No? How about if you were made members at three clubs, and each one of you can pick the clubs you want?
“Or maybe you need a new condo. I’m sure we can find a unit that would interest each of you . . . “
What? No ‘Blackjack and Hookers’ ?
“In addition to Trump’s involvement in directing Mike Flynn to ask Sergey Kislyak to defer any response to the new sanctions imposed in December 2016,…”
What would the issue be here, precisely, with regard to Trump? If Trump told Flynn to have this discussion, this isn’t a crime. Every president-elect for the last 40 has sent an envoy to Russia and other major powers to ask them not to do anything now based on the soon-to-be former administration’s actions.
Some might point to the Logan Act, but it’s hard to see how it would be operative here. For one, merely asking Russia/Putin to delay responding doesn’t undermine US policy or position (just as it hadn’t prior). And then there’s the huge question of whether it applies at all to a president-elect, or is other unconstitutionally vague (as a federal judge offered in dicta).
It’s notable that in Flynn’s plea agreement is only in respect to his having lied about the discussion with Kisylak to the FBI. Thus is seems to me this whole question about Trump’s directions to Flynn likely has more to do with potential additional charges against Flynn if Trump did not tell him to do it.
It probably relates to the context in which Flynn found himself, one that dictated he lie to the FBI.
You don’t stick your arm in a wringer without a bloody good reason. Protecting from disclosure to the FBI routine comments from a president-elect to the Russians would not be one of them. A special ops general with three masters degrees, who had been to the war college and command and general staff college, most likely was hiding something more nefarious.
I think it’s a mistake to view these events in isolation when the full context is unknown. Indeed, it is not a crime to speak to the Russian ambassador and ask him to delay retaliatory sanctions. However, it *is* a crime to lie to the FBI about it. The fact that the lie was about something that in isolation is not a crime raises serious questions about the motivation for the lie and highlights the fact that important context is missing.
The full context of these actions should become more clear as more facts are revealed.
Yeah Flynn is legit screwed in this (insofar as it is legit (as opposed to legal) to charge a crime for lying to the FBI), but it’s hard to see how this redounds to Trump.
I agree with your larger point about the full context. We also need the context of this conversation being intercepted and recorded. Was it because of Flynn’s other crimes (FARA, etc.), or from Page/Papadop, or was it based (as some have said, though I don’t know on what grounds) on the Logan Act, set up by Sally Yates?
I can’t keep up with the scandals, but this is hilarious
https://static01.nyt.com/files/2018/us/mcdougal-complaint-exhibits.pdf
I have a theory that Mueller will indict everyone, the top Trump team, all at once in order to avoid the pardon issue. If they are all indicted at the same time with a lot of damning information all coming out at once, will be harder for Congress to aid the coverup.